how short is too short?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Anything under 40 will always be short. Good stories need time to be told. So unless you go around skipping through the dialogue 40 is a good core time.

 

The best games give you a good story and plenty of other activities (which contribute to it).

 

Funny thing is. It's only since the former PC developers have gotten in on the act that console RPGs have become short. Appart from the odd exception they tend to average 60 hours unless you rush them. Find all the extra's and secrets and you can double that a lot of the time.

 

I'm not sure I would count Oblivion, since yes its big. But there isnt much variety or any real point to the exploration. So 500 hours of wandering for no purpose ,not my idea of fun.

[deganawida]

How short is too short? If the game ends with the plot unresolved (except for loose ends needed for stories), then the game is too short.

 

Honestly, this game-length argument is subjective. Game length is not the standard that should be used to determine a game's quality; gameplay, story (even Donkey Kong had a story, to refer to Gromnir's example in the first page), and replayability are the standards which should be used.

[mkreku]

No, game length is not the standard that should be used to determine a game's quality.. but it sure as hell is a vital part of the game's quality.

 

I find Jade Empire to be a great example of this. Most people who've played it enjoy what's there. But for some it's just not enough anyhow. Why? Because just as you're getting into the game and start appreciating the one-dimensional characters (and finally stop giggling because of the ridiculous NPC names) and the Bioware Standard 1A-story, the game ends. Had the game been 40 hours, it would have been great. As a 13-14 hour experience, it's a disappointment.

 

The games that have stuck with me, the ones that I've bothered replaying, are all huge. The Ultima games in my childhood were exceptionally long games, mostly because I had no clue what to do and just went around killing random stuff. I vividly remember everyone of them. The Gothic's are both long, again maybe because they're open-ended and you spend some time getting lost and being chased by packs of wolves. Still, they are two of my all-time favourites. Same with Dragon Quest 8, Oblivion, and so on. I firmly believe that a game needs to be a certain length for me to take the time to appreciate them fully. How long that gametime has to be? I don't know.

[Calax]

as long as the game allows me to figure out what's who and where. And has a DEFINITIVE endpoint I'm perfectly fine.

[deganawida]

I find Jade Empire to be a great example of this. Most people who've played it enjoy what's there. But for some it's just not enough anyhow. Why? Because just as you're getting into the game and start appreciating the one-dimensional characters (and finally stop giggling because of the ridiculous NPC names) and the Bioware Standard 1A-story, the game ends. Had the game been 40 hours, it would have been great. As a 13-14 hour experience, it's a disappointment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, it most likely wouldn't have. If Bioware couldn't tell their story well enough in those 13-14 hours to make players feel as though the story had progressed well and was resolved properly and that the gameplay was good, then 40 hours would not have done it. All 40 hours would have done would be to allow them to spread "one-dimensional characters" and "Standard 1A-story" thinner across a larger game, distracting players from the weaknesses inherent in the game design.

[Llyranor]

No, it most likely wouldn't have.  If Bioware couldn't tell their story well enough in those 13-14 hours to make players feel as though the story had progressed well and was resolved properly and that the gameplay was good, then 40 hours would not have done it.  All 40 hours would have done would be to allow them to spread "one-dimensional characters" and "Standard 1A-story" thinner across a larger game, distracting players from the weaknesses inherent in the game design.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bing bing bing. Devs should work their way up and ensure quality throughout the entire game and slowly build on that and make the game as long as they can support with their resources rather than fixate on an arbitrary length and cut corners.

[mkreku]

So basically what you're saying is that a game can't be too short if what's there is good?

[deganawida]

So basically what you're saying is that a game can't be too short if what's there is good?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. Quality should outweigh quantity in every aspect of game design. More isn't always better; is more crap better than less crap?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying.  Quality should outweigh quantity in every aspect of game design.  More isn't always better; is more crap better than less crap?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well more good stuff is better than less good stuff. :D

 

You are more likely to finish a short crap game than a long crap game though.

[Llyranor]

Yep, but more != more good stuff

 

Take mreku's example again. "one-dimensional characters" and "Standard 1A-story" makes for a poor 13-hr game, but a great 40-hr one?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yep, but more != more good stuff

 

Take mreku's example again. "one-dimensional characters" and "Standard 1A-story" makes for a poor 13-hr game, but a great 40-hr one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well if thats the limit of your talents more time isnt going to suddenly make you better.

 

But you do need time and space to introduce complexity. Take Spirits Within. Too much for a 2 hour movie, but would have made a fantatastic game.

[Gromnir]

So basically what you're saying is that a game can't be too short if what's there is good?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. Quality should outweigh quantity in every aspect of game design. More isn't always better; is more crap better than less crap?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

maybe this is true for deg, but not for Gromnir. again, a crpg is not simply a nice tight storytelling vehicle. given the recent example of oblivion we is unsure why so few people is getting that. eldar, for example, admits that the storytelling in oblivion was pretty pedestrian... he had to fill in the gaps with imagined content... but he enjoyed oblivion. why? am recalling that he liked the darkbrotherhood stuff and the archmage quests, and he liked to simply level his character and collect 1007.

 

'nother example? charwood were a single tangential quest from nwn. probably took us a couple hours to complete. maybe we level 1 time. were well written and had interesting characters and it were a bright gleaming moment in the nwn experience... it could also have been very easily a self-contained and independent game lasting no more than 2 or three hours... player mod length at best. so here is the thing, for all you Qua;ity is All that Matters folks... shrinkwrap charwood as an independent product, and then be telling us if anybody would be satisfied with quality alone.

 

people is being kinda odd with this "length doesn't matter" stuff. tell it to your girlfriend if you believes it, but we just cannot believe it is true.

 

regardless, at this point we is as much concerned with carification as we is with the hours of gameplay in nwn2. would take somebody at obsidian less than 5 minutes to find out if fergie actually did give the germans his 20 hour figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[mkreku]

Take mreku's example again. "one-dimensional characters" and "Standard 1A-story" makes for a poor 13-hr game, but a great 40-hr one?

My nick is mkreku.

 

Whether I like the game or not is irrelevant. Jade Empire is generally considered a good game that's too short, which is why I used it as an example. If the game had been able to keep the same standard for 40 hours instead of 14, then YES, the game would have been better. Probably a whole lot better.

 

I think a game can be hurt, no matter how good it is, if it ends too fast. I can't think of any RPG at the moment that fits the description (since I don't particularly like Jade Empire), but Black is a good example. The game is fantastic for as long as it lasts. It excells technically, it delivers the action goods and it actually has a well-told story and a disturbingly difficult end battle. But it only has 8 levels which lasts for 8-10 hours. I had a ton of fun reviewing the game, but my jaw actually dropped when I realized the last level was the last level. Even though the game was satisfying while it lasted it wasn't enough. It left me hanging.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Black was excellent. I'd have been miffed if I had bought rather than rented it though.

[Cantousent]

Well, the topic title specifically asks about length, so here goes my view on this.

 

mkreku is right about a game. It can the same for a movie or a book or anything else. What you read might be good, but it might also be rushed. The characters are good, but one dimensional. Adding more time might not mean that the characters are more complex, but it takes time to develop a character, does it not? The plot might seem formulaic. Adding time does not necessarily mean that the plot will be more complex, but it takes time to add complexity to the plot.

 

The original question asked "how short is too short?" That's a tough question for me simply because I'm with most people who say that the game length is less important than a good story, good characters, fun gameplay, and replay value. However, I don't fool myself into thinking that, say, paying fifty buck for a five hour game will be satisfying.

 

With today's conventions in CRPG design, I'm not sure that Obsidian can give me everything I want in 20 hours. I know, for a fact, that I'd like to have more hours on a single run, but I'm willing to give those 20 hours a shot.

 

I'd like to point out, alan, that it's not entirely true that we meet with stony silence from game developers in regards to every issue. Before you buy most games, you have some idea of how long the publisher and deisgner believe the game will be. We will have some idea, I'm sure, about NWN2. Not only that, but game length and other topics do come out on message boards and game magazines, and those topics range from classes to races to length to PWs. Feargus himself might not be the guy who gives us the skinny. Fair enough, but someone will.

 

With that in mind, I do think this is not an issue that Obsidian should leave hanging until the bitter end. Now, if we get some word within the next couple of weeks, something I mentioned in the previous thread, I think most of the people here will forget it was an issue by the time the game is released.

 

You know, I've always rather thought Feargus was a decent fellow. He's the head of the company, but even Gromnir admits that he'll come in and give responses. Feargus has rolled up his sleeves on a few occassions and joined the fray, even made an unpopular announcement or two. Personally, I see that as a plus. Did he try to smooth things over in regards to the whole ranger fiasco? Sure, that's his job. He runs the company. Still, he did it. Feargus was the standup guy who came in and dealt with a hot issue. That's alright in my book.

 

So, I'm not demanding anything. Nevertheless, I think he should give us some word to resolve the issue. Furthermore, past experience has told me that he's willing to associate with the board long enough to give us information, even if he has reason to believe that the news he brings will not meet with uiversal approval.

 

I believe we should be patient, but I'm also convinced that we should expect some clarity. If folks had been saying, give Obsidian a chance to come up with an answer for these questions, I would have been fine. In fact, I said:

 

"...it's only been a couple of days. Maybe he does plan on shedding more light on the situation, but he's waiting for better information or more clarity on his end. If that's the case, we can certainly forgive Feargus for taking a little time. After all, the game isn't heading to the shelves until... what? September? Since that's the case, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. After all, if he makes a more defitive statement in a couple of weeks, most reasonable people will forgive him. Unreasonable people are certainly outside of the calculation."

 

So, if the argument is that we should not try to get an answer to the question, or that we shouldn't expect one, I'll continue to disagree. If the argument is that we should give Obsidian a break, and some time to respond, then we're already in agreement.

 

EDIT:

 

To Artreides: :Eldar's grinning at Atreides inside joke, but reminds him how he feels about enchantments icon:

 

To Gromnir: Yep, I liked going through the quests but the only thing I liked about the Dark Brotherhood was smiting the first murderous bastard they sent to contact me in the first place. I don't think there's anything wrong with a game that favors some loot acquisition and some solid leveling. The tastes here range from elite to "Oh my God, you mean the common rabble play this game?" I enjoyed Oblivion, but I have higher hopes for NWN2, not only overall, but specifically in terms of story.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Eldar

[kirottu]

again, a crpg is not simply a nice tight storytelling vehicle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. I would say character generation suffers from short gameplay.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well there are sure to be more interviews before the game is released and the subject of how long is it will come up in everyone of them I expect.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yes. I would say character generation suffers from short gameplay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Growth and development ?

[Llyranor]

'nother example?  charwood were a single tangential quest from nwn.  probably took us a couple hours to complete.  maybe we level 1 time.  were well written and had interesting characters and it were a bright gleaming moment in the nwn experience... it could also have been very easily a self-contained and independent game lasting no more than 2 or three hours... player mod length at best.  so here is the thing, for all you Qua;ity is All that Matters folks... shrinkwrap charwood as an independent product, and then be telling us if anybody would be satisfied with quality alone.

Heh, I'd have preferred NWN be accompanied by a couple of short mods like Charwood than the 60-hr epic awesomeness it shipped with.

 

There's definitely room for shorter products nowadays, what with digital distribution and episodic content. Some people may not like it, but it can promote a more consistent approach to quality control. A 40-hr game can afford to have a 5-hr segment that's complete crap and still receive favorable reviews. A 10-hr game can't. Pirates of the Sword Coast was in many ways more satisfying than the BG saga.

 

I think another issue people have is regarding money. It's understandable how when gaming budgets are limited that they'd want to spend it on something that gives them lasting value, and thus they allocate an inherent value to quantity.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Llyranor

[~Di]

...  not wanna see the next game be 20 hours, and the one after that ends up as 15 or 12 hours.  gotta draw the line somewheres... why not here, eh?

 

Exactly so. Grommy is quite correct. As I've said, 20 hours is my line in the sand, the place where the $50 price tag overwhelms the entertainment value for me personally. Fair enough, I am not Obsidian's target market; I'm not a mod-maker, a mod-user or a multi-play afficionado, so my expectation of gaming value may be different than someone else's. Still, it is my expectation and I simply will not purchase games than demonstrably do not meet it. That's not a boycott; that's my choice as a consumer.

 

Oh, and I don't believe it's appropriate at all to compare a 10-hour fighting/car race/sports game that is meant to be replayed dozens of times with a CRPG, which at most may be place a couple of times to try out different characters. Day and night, gaming-wise.

 

Somehow, this reminds me of students who constantly ask how many pages an assignment is supposed to be. I seriously cringe at that question. Just write the dang story.

 

We're not talking about how many pages it takes to tell the story; we're talking about how extensive and complex a story we should expect for $50. You might spend the same money to purchase a 3-page brochure as you would to purchase a 300-page hard cover novel, but I would not.

 

Heh, I'm dating myself but I remember when folks were up in arms about a game of "only" 60 hours, when we were using BG's 100+ hours as the gold standard. At that point if we'd warned that games would be released with 20 hours or less of content for the same $50 price tag, folks would have ridiculed us mercilessly. And yet, here we are.

 

As for Feargus, I like him. I've never found him to be pompous or exhibit any sense that he's "too good" to chat with the masses. I agree it would be nice if he clarified this issue, but frankly that would be a lose-lose proposition for him IF the 20-hour estimate is correct. So I don't expect to hear from him, and I won't think less of him because of his silence on this matter.

 

If this is the wave of the future for CRPG's, shorter and shorter games for the same amount of money, then I'll simply presume this part of my hobby life is over, and I shall move on.

[kirottu]

Yes. I would say character generation suffers from short gameplay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Growth and development ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, what I got from Gromnir

Edited April 25, 2006 by kirottu

[Camael]

As a consumer what I really want would be a game that could last 50 to 150 hrs, depending on how you play. A party of up to 6 or so characters, where you could choose from dozens of available characters

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yes, what I got from Gromnir

[Gromnir]

"Heh, I'd have preferred NWN be accompanied by a couple of short mods like Charwood than the 60-hr epic awesomeness it shipped with."

 

too bad that ain't addressing Gromnir point. you woulda' liked a couple of short mods rather than 60 hours of nwn. fine. example were that you gets charwood... period. no other stuff and no > or < nwn. simply answer whether or not you woulda' been satisfied with charwood, a single quality crpg story and adventure, as a stand-alone purchase. if length not matter, then you not need more than just charwood, right?

 

oh, and we happens to agree that nwn woulda' been a better product if they made a toolset and simply included one or two short modules... 'cause that were their original plan at bio. nwn were not gonna offer no substantial sp oc for the first year of its development... maybe more. substantial time into development the biowarians or the interplay folks (or both) come to realization that nwn as intended just won't work. not nuff people to play small scale d&d on-line or play sp mods... which is why they expanded the damned sp oc in the first place. would nwn have been better if it were just toolset and maybe a mod or two? sure, but bio and interplay knew that not 'nuff people would buy w/o a substantial sp oc.

 

game players has not changed near as much as the obsidian developers suggest, not in the few short years since nwn release.... but lessons learned... not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 25, 2006 by Gromnir

[Llyranor]

My nick is mkreku.

Whoops, my bad.

 

Whether I like the game or not is irrelevant. Jade Empire is generally considered a good game that's too short, which is why I used it as an example. If the game had been able to keep the same standard for 40 hours instead of 14, then YES, the game would have been better. Probably a whole lot better.

How would they have done that, though? Delay the game by 1-2 yrs? Or spread the dev time they had into a 40 hr product rather than 13, essentially diluting it? Hey, ideally I'd love to have longer games that came with no strings attached, but realistically I don't see how that's done without expanding resources. When the cost of development has multiplied in the past years, can you afford to allocate more resources? Where does full VO come in, next-gen graphics?

 

I think a game can be hurt, no matter how good it is, if it ends too fast. I can't think of any RPG at the moment that fits the description (since I don't particularly like Jade Empire), but Black is a good example. The game is fantastic for as long as it lasts. It excells technically, it delivers the action goods and it actually has a well-told story and a disturbingly difficult end battle. But it only has 8 levels which lasts for 8-10 hours. I had a ton of fun reviewing the game, but my jaw actually dropped when I realized the last level was the last level. Even though the game was satisfying while it lasted it wasn't enough. It left me hanging.

A game of any length can be hurt if it ends abruptly. Case in point, KOTOR2. The result is an incomplete experience. You may argue that it takes a certain amount of time to ensure even that, but I disagree, and there's probably no right answer anyway. Call of Duty took me about 10 hrs, and it gave a complete experience. The final level felt very satisfying and I was quite pleased with the whole experience. Had the game been longer, I might not have been so pleased.

 

But that's a FPS. Yet, I find it still applies to RPGs. Take, again, Pirates of the Sword Coast. It gave me a complete experience. 10 hrs. Good amount of exploration, good amount of story, and an ending that felt appropriate and not rushed. On the other hand, it cost me 10 bucks. Would I have paid 50 bucks for it? Probably not, but that may have had more to do with it not being mindblowing, which has to do with what I think of standard Bioware storytelling. I probably wouldn't have bought the BG saga for a massive pricetag way back had I known it would be relatively disappointing (even if it'd come with a guaranteed 100+ hrs of gaming). Like I mentioned in my previous post, I definitely see the argument for wanting a lasting value out of your game. Perhaps games should come with various pricetags? Is it silly to allocate the same one to every game, then expect them all to arrive at the same lasting value. "Okay, we need to make a 50-hr game, even if it'd probably make a better 20-hr one, let's add in more dungeons" Is that because you're going to be charge 50$ anyway? In that way, I'm looking forward to Obs' digital distribution modules.