how short is too short?

[Darque]

Exactly!

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Not really that practical where $$$ are concerned.

 

You get what you pay for, but when you pay 50-60 bucks you expect to get your money's worth.

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Exactly. I don't think that length of the game is and end all be all. A crap long game is much, much worse than an excellent short game IMO. Sure, I'd love for there to be an excellent long game, but I don't think developers should go about saying "Ok, we need to get 30 hours or else."

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I'd rather have a 50 hour game that's decent than a 10 hour game that's fantastic... at least for 50 bucks.

[Cantousent]

Okay, now that I've read all the posts, what's wrong with having the CEO clarify his comments. Whether length is or is not important, we should expect some sort of information about the game before release. We should expect information because it is and has been the standard within the industry.

 

Listen, this isn't about length. It's about the guy who heads the company making a statement. I don't care if the game is 20 hours as long as it's good. ...But I still want to know the truth. What did Feargus say? If he had the fortitude to say it to the damned Germans, he should have the same stones to say it to us. Dammit.

 

You know, what if he said the story would be more or less linear? What if he said that they were going to limit races to human, elf, and dwarf? What if he said that the story would be completely open ended and there would be no dialogue trees? There is an issue for every one of you. If that issue came to light due to a twice translated comment, you'd want to know the truth. You'd want the details.

 

Well, I'm not yelling for an immediate answer. I'm not demanding, wheedling, or whining for an answer. However, while Feargus might not owe us anything, he owes his shareholders more than to make an off the cuff response and then let it hang, causing uncertainty. Maybe he didn't make an amibiguous statement. Maybe he made a perfectly clear answer that was misunderstood. Maybe he made the 20 hour claim and stands by it. Maybe he mispoke. We don't know, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect some sort of response, even if it's from some self-identified mouthpiece. It'll show Feargus to be pretty damned small, but at least it would be some clarification.

 

It's not a matter of length, but can we expect Feargus to make statements like these and then let them fall flat? Can we expect that someone misinterprets or, heaven forbid, flatout lies about what Feargus says and that Obsidian will let those comments stand.

 

Give Feargus and Obsidian time. I agree. ...But what Gromnir asks is reasonable. No matter what you think about game length, you should agree with Gromnir's basic assertion that the CEO of a company should be honest and forthright.

[Volourn]

"he owes his shareholders"

 

What shareholders?

[Llyranor]

I'd rather have a 50 hour game that's decent than a 10 hour game that's fantastic... at least for 50 bucks.

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To each their own, I guess. At this point, I have better things to do than invest in a 'decent' game.

[Cantousent]

"he owes his shareholders"

 

What shareholders?

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If Obsidian is not a publicly traded company, then I suppose he might not have shareholders. Of course, could we agree that he has a share in his own company. The other... four? people who founded the company with him have a share. So, I guess Feargus owes it to himself not to make obscure comments and then refuse to substantiate them. Atari has a share in the product, so I guess, if it comes down to it, that Feargus should be honest for the sake of Atari.

 

Vol, you're simply not thinking this through. It's more important that you try to win the argument than it is to establish a basis for it. I'm not saying Feargus owes us because we're "fans." I'm saying that game designers who make false statements regarding their products end up suffering for it.

 

Ask Sawyer about claims regarding game length that ended up being untrue. Ask Feargus about HoW. You want to be clever. I understand that. You want to find some technical flaw in my statement in order to deflate the whole thing. I get that, Vol. Clever.

 

So, substitute "his company" for each time I use Shareholders and it will be exactly the same. Problem solved. Because, my statement is valid either way.

[Volourn]

"If Obsidian is not a publicly traded company, then I suppose he might not have shareholders. Of course, could we agree that he has a share in his own company. The other... four? people who founded the company with him have a share."

 

I'm sure the other owners ar ein the lopp as much as they can be depending on their respective responsibilities. My point is that him responding this thread does nothing but give us posters ven more fodder.

 

I take this interview for what it's worth - the interviewer asked how long the OC was, and he gave an estimate that he thought was fair. It may be accurate it may not be. Afterall, awhile back, he had said the OC would be 30-40 hours. Things change.

 

Him posting here does nothing. And, it's not about winning or losing. It's about me feeling that posters here (and elsewhere) somehow think that companies owe them something. The only thing they owe us is agame if we buy it.

 

When I bought KOTOR, I bought KOTOR. Not the right to demand answers to my every whim on future games (or even KOTOR for that matter - within reason - asking for bug help/fixes ok as longa s it remains respectful).

 

 

"I'm saying that game designers who make false statements regarding their products end up suffering for it."

 

True. To a point. Not always the case though.

[kumquatq3]

I think the arguement lost it's focus about a page ago.

[Calax]

the "correct" length of the game an rpg is subjective. thus developers try to make it so that you can rush it in a few hours (15 or so) but if you try to savor it for the fact of savoring it you can stretch that to close to 40 hours.

 

For me the "right" amount of game play is the amount that is required to keep the story moving at a good clip but not loosing anything to "OMG we just learned a GIGANTIC plot twist because we took the wrong turn at that intersection!" moments.

 

That's the one reason I don't like most of the games that are being rated well right now. Grand theft auto and most other games that come after it are little more than glorified sandboxes. It's gotten quite pervasive in that most adventureish games try to take after it (spiderman 2, ultimate spiderman, hulk, True Crimes, Driver, Godfather...)

 

so for me it's "and the point of doing this quest/objective is what (other than obtaining doohickey number 7)?"

[kumquatq3]

I'd rather have a 50 hour game that's decent than a 10 hour game that's fantastic... at least for 50 bucks.

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To each their own, I guess. At this point, I have better things to do than invest in a 'decent' game.

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Good, that way your both settling!

[Cantousent]

Vol, this is a bad choice on his part. Does he need to come here to clarify his answers? Of course not. It would suffice.

 

Now I see that you're not trying to win. You simply don't understand that this is a serious issue. Just because we're a bunch of people on a message board doesn't mean that this is a small issue.

 

You know why Gromnir wants to make a big deal of this? Because if enough of us take the issue seriously, so will Obsidian. You might think we're a bunch of pathetic losers. Fair enough. ....But enough pathetic losers talk about something and it becomes a concern.

 

Moreover, wouldn't it be nice for you, as a consumer, to have more information. You're being pig-headed. All I'm asking is for you to put aside the argument and take a look at it. Really.

 

Read my position in the previous thread. I've come to Gromnir's position. I didn't come to it not because I want to make a stink about the length of the game. I do think that the head of a company is obligated to be clear and forthright about his product. Don't you?

[kumquatq3]

Fair enough.  ....But enough pathetic losers talk about something and it becomes a concern.

 

True.

 

But bud, we are well short of that mark.

[Tigranes]

Agrees With Eldar .

 

It's very easy to say, "who cares?" and indeed, who really cares about a message board which has less than a hundred persistent posters? But that's precisely one of the reasons the online community fails to receive serious treatment yet. You would be very surprised to see how many 'respectable', 'traditional' media / academic / political institutions use internet surveys and the vox populi online to gauge reactions of the society as a whole in South Korea. Granted, that country is much more internet-crazed, but we should really set ourselves on that path.

 

That said, we shouldn't criticise Fergie yet - by 20 hours does it mean simply to get in there and clear out the MQ? In which case it is perfectly reasonable, that could very well apply to BG2 and that was one of the biggest CRPGs in recent memory.

[Atreides]

I think Obsidian's a partnership with 5? dudes, Feargus among them. It's not publicly listed. I don't think there's anything forcing him to address this though that would be nice.

 

Anyway everything till now is guestimations since NWN2's not like a finsihed product and all. Estimates are useful of course but it's possibly too early to run around sayign the sky's falling.

[kumquatq3]

I think Obsidian's a partnership with 5? dudes, Feargus among them.  It's not publicly listed.  I don't think there's anything forcing him to address this though that would be nice.

 

What, exactly, is the question you want addressed.

 

PS, read my sig after you think of the answer

[Volourn]

"Moreover, wouldn't it be nice for you, as a consumer, to have more information. You're being pig-headed. All I'm asking is for you to put aside the argument and take a look at it. Really."

 

I don't need any more info as a consumer. I know enough about NWN2 - both good and bad - that my decision to purchase it has already been made. A short OC doesn't influence me this.

 

The fact that NWN is my fave RPG (to the chagrin to many, heh), and the sequel promises interesting indepth multiple henchmen, lots of roleplaying in the OC as well as a toolset to play for years to come is enough to convince me it's a worthwhile purchase.

 

If NWN2 OC's proposed length is enough to get you not to buy it then don't. Until another length is quoted that's the length we should go by.

 

 

"You know why Gromnir wants to make a big deal of this? Because if enough of us take the issue seriously, so will Obsidian"

 

the problem is that some like Grom, Hades, and Di (not you) feel that anyone who doesn't care one way or other about the OC length are simply Obsidian fanboys. That's silly talks. i've alreayd voiced cocnern over various aspects of NWN2's design... it's length isn't one of them, and this admonishment of my presumed fanboyism is silly and needs to be brought down.

 

 

"Read my position in the previous thread. I've come to Gromnir's position. I didn't come to it not because I want to make a stink about the length of the game. I do think that the head of a company is obligated to be clear and forthright about his product. Don't you?"

 

Sure. But, not neccesaarily on some silly message baord where a very small percentage of potential customers read. That's what future intrviews, questions, et al. will be for.

 

Or do you think we are more deserving of info then those who don't read these message baords?

 

That said, if Mr. Urquhart decides to post he ron the subect to clarify or whatever, I won't complain. It's the demanding or the self arrogant expecation that he will or should that gets me.

 

We don't pay to use these boards so he owes us nothing.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Volourn

[Fionavar]

Pershaps a question from this discussion might find its way into the Top Ten with Feargus list for consideration?

[kumquatq3]

Pershaps a question from this discussion might find its way into the Top Ten with Feargus list for consideration?

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This is what I said

 

Sometimes it takes a village........or a dragon, whatever

 

 

EDIT: Fio got a vechicle for peeps questions to be answered by Feargus and no one uses it. Yet complaints about him not addressing us are raised.....

Edited April 25, 2006 by kumquatq3

[Volourn]

The Dragon wins.

[Atreides]

I think Obsidian's a partnership with 5? dudes, Feargus among them.  It's not publicly listed.  I don't think there's anything forcing him to address this though that would be nice.

 

What, exactly, is the question you want addressed.

 

PS, read my sig after you think of the answer

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I was referring to Eldar's post. Sorry for the mixup

[Llyranor]

I'm not sure what a ruckus would actually accomplish by this point. This game isn't that far off, what could they plausibly do? Cancel the game, delay it? Atari isn't going to be happy. Attempts to lengthen it would be artificial at best, and - at this point in the dev cycle - it WILL most probably lead to a cheapening of the final product (unless you're of a mind that quantity - any kind - warrants supporting).

 

The conveyed message would be at best for their next product. The devs KNOW you want longer games, but unless you consist of the major buying power of their product, you're fighting an uphill battle. Limited resources and all. Ideal world, hmm? Of course, there's one way to really voice your opinion in a significant manner, but you should prepare to shell out for consoles in the future.

[Cantousent]

That's perfectly reasonable, Fio. Very well done. That all aside, I'm in the camp of folks who don't think that game length is the end-all be-all of the game. I say that with the caveat that I would generally prefer longer, quality games. Yes, I want it all and I want it now. :Eldar's quick grin icon:

[Llyranor]

Hey, I want longer quality games too!

[Atreides]

I'm not sure what a ruckus would actually accomplish by this point. This game isn't that far off, what could they plausibly do? Cancel the game, delay it? Atari isn't going to be happy. Attempts to lengthen it would be artificial at best, and - at this point in the dev cycle - it WILL most probably lead to a cheapening of the final product (unless you're of a mind that quantity - any kind - warrants supporting).

*Somewhere in the near future in Obsidian's cavernous halls*

 

Feargus: So, the guys on the forums are making a fuss over game length. Can you do something about it?

JE: Like what? We can't simply fit in new stuff. The continuity would be compromised and we'd have to rework existing stuff.

Feargus: Any quick fix?

JE: I know, remember the Rubicon Cube in Torment? We could do something like that without affecting the real game. The hardcore dudes will spend hours stuck in it while others would ignore it.

Feargus: Genius! Make it so, No2.

JE: Here's your dev chance, Bulock.

JB: YES, AT LAST!

 

 

*September/October in a place far far away*

Atreides: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Edited April 25, 2006 by Atreides

[Cantousent]

It's amazing how many people see this as a game length issue whereas I see it as a trust issue. I think Fionavar's approach suffices best at this point, but I wonder at comments like, "what can we do?" and "I don't care what the boss says." The point is, we should care. We should exert what influence we have to get clarifications on these issues.

 

We don't have a lot of influence? You're kidding me! Here I was thinking I could just call Feargus on his house phone and chat him up on the ordeal.

 

Of course we don't have a lot of influence, but it is a shame for any man to lay down and accept what fate hands him. I am a consumer, and I may only be one voice, and that voice may be small, but I. will. speak. You might not hear my voice, but I'll use it.

 

What I lack in eloquence, I'll make up in persistence. Ulitmately, I may be insignificant, but I will speak in the hopes that eventually, if others agree, I will not speak alone.

 

Sure, we can be jaded. We can avoid drama at all costs. We can lay down before powers the powers we perceive greater than our own and go quietly where we are led.

 

No. I guess we can't. You can. I won't.

[Darque]

*September/October in a place far far away*

Atreides: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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