How did KotOR fail?

[Iolo]

Agreed. I wanted to use Force Choke on Carth as soon as we left Taris. Instead I am even forced to keep in my party. People being forced into your party is not a good idea and one of the problems I had in the game.

[Karzak]

There were too many "you have to do this" cutscenes. I wanted to fight all the fisheads and not get arrested, I wanted to fight the entire admirals ship., I wanted to fight the dragon, etc...

 

Like I said, the game forced you to doi what it wanted in a very unnatural way.

[Iolo]

It was a very linear game with not much choice. Two choices to solve some quests in contrived manner doesn't equal choice.

[kefka]

hmm, let's see..

 

1. Mini games should be optional.

 

2. Being forced to take NPCs you don't like, or because they're a plot device (like T3)

 

3. Cutscenes that were too intrusive and made you watch the action with no control over what to do next.

 

4. Dark side only became available after the "choice" at the temple.

 

5. Bastila was too important with your character merely playing a supporting role.

 

6. Melee weapons were too powerful - lightsabers felt weak. 2 upgraded Baragwin assault blades, anyone? I'd like sabers to have a chance for insta-kills.

 

7. Not enough opportunity to use force powers against "innocent" civilians. You had to be attacked first or given the option in dialogue.

[Necromancer]

Have finished the game as LS and DS and have a few gripes.

 

1. Not being able to wander around where I want. The maps were just too small in places.

 

2. Would have liked more interaction with the people in the streets.

 

3. Most of the fights were far too easy.

 

4. Would of liked the ability to steal from shops and people in the street.

 

5. Would have liked a different choice of companions.

 

6. Thought Pazaak was rigged in favour of the computer.

 

Other than this I enjoyed the game.

[Drakron]

I suspect this would be the wrong forum to get the rules implementation to change. BioWare's KOTOR forums would probably be the best place. BioWare think they have a winning formula and would be unwilling to change unless they saw a lot of posts otherwise.

Doubt it, they could have fixed a improved the classes for the PC release and they did not.

 

There is little that can be done with SWKotOR having been released and all, heck HotU screws spellcasting classes of their well deserved epic spells and they dont even rethink of what they done and correct it.

 

Asking on their forums will just lead to ...

 

a)Being ignored.

b)Having a reply on something that is not what was asked.

c)Having a vague reply of they did it because its fun or something about playing D&D and working closely with WotC.

[Iolo]

I suspect this would be the wrong forum to get the rules implementation to change.  BioWare's KOTOR forums would probably be the best place.  BioWare think they have a winning formula and would be unwilling to change unless they saw a lot of posts otherwise. 

Doubt it, they could have fixed a improved the classes for the PC release and they did not.

 

There is little that can be done with SWKotOR having been released and all, heck HotU screws spellcasting classes of their well deserved epic spells and they dont even rethink of what they done and correct it.

 

Asking on their forums will just lead to ...

 

a)Being ignored.

b)Having a reply on something that is not what was asked.

c)Having a vague reply of they did it because its fun or something about playing D&D and working closely with WotC.

I don't disagree with you based on my dealings with BioWare employees on their forums in the past. I never expected the PC release to improve the classes and would have been surprised if they did. One can always hope they listen to constructive feedback though. My guess was that if DelaWare is KOTOR2 then BioWare owns the engine and rules and Obsidian owns the storyline, quests, art, etc.

[~Di]

Hmmm... my experience with BioWare is that they do indeed listen to their fans' suggestions, and I know for a fact that they have frequently implemented fan suggestions. But they do not, of course, implement all of them.

 

I don't spend a lot of time at the "new" BioWare forums, however, because they are so damned huge and because the forums themselves load so slowly on my rotten dial-up connection. So perhaps things have changed since the days of BG and TOB development, when fan input was a valued commodity.

[Drakron]

They did, its nothing like the old BIS forums back when BioWare used then.

 

Also, in reply to another poster, BioWare rip off the d20 system (I say that because I dont see the d20 logo or the OGL stetement) and copy/past a lot out of Star Wars d20 so they dont own the rules, also SWKotOR engine is not good for a good RPG, OE sould use nothing from BioWare if they are making a Star Wars cRPG game.

[Karzak]

So perhaps things have changed since the days of BG and TOB development, when fan input was a valued commodity.

It is a night and day difference, although the Bioweenies didn't ever take fan input very often even when they were more concerned with quality as a means of profit.

 

Now the Bioweenies are no different tha Id.

[Shneider]

To be honest, I didn't much care for the "light/dark side scale" in terms of reputation of sorts, especially when applied to non force adepts/jedi/sith- basically droids and the vast majority of non jedi. Things such as using the force to corrupt the minds or enemies, settle disputes or determine treachery or basically any manipulation of the force to solve whichever event should determine whether one walks the dark path or light path as it were. Not thievery, unless it could be determined that such and such a character used the force to aid in this.

 

Different dialogue trees would add more replay-ability from my perspective, I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as fixing anything as some stories are just linear. No big deal if they are done well.

 

Combat needed some balancing. Passive deflection of blaster shots should be tossed out the proverbial window. I should not be able to leave my jedi character alone and completely unmanaged while half a dozen combat droids fire at him/her, leave and return a few minutes later with the droids in a smoking pile of rubble. Projectile/range whatever weapons need balancing as well. If you were hit with a stun weapon with a setting that could take down a wookie, your character should be unconscious or somehow adversly affected while he uses these jedi abilities to reorient him/herself. Apply rules or status changes in some proportional way for different species or characters with specific feats conditioning what have youl.

[FrankK]

Things such as using the force to corrupt the minds or enemies, settle disputes or determine treachery or basically any manipulation of the force to solve whichever event should determine whether one walks the dark path or light path as it were. Not thievery, unless it could be determined that such and such a character used the force to aid in this.

So if you didn't use the force, but still persuaded people to corruption, hate and murder, why would that be any different than using the force? Your actions, whether you use the force or not, determine your path.

 

As an example, if Anakin had used a blaster instead of his lightsaber to slaughter the sandpeople in EpII, would the act have had less of an impact on his slide toward the dark side?

[Darque]

I wouldn't think so.

 

Do evil and become evil and all that.

 

I think a lot of the reason there's a focus on forceusers doing evil is because you can see the results on them for being evil and using the force (example: Palpatine in the films)... but overall the act itself what determines if it's evil, not the "tool" used to do it, be it blaster or a forcechoke.

 

<edit: In affect I'm agreeing with you... just in case there is doubt >

<second edit: "see the results" as in the degeneration... must learn to complete my thoughts and clarify>

[Drakron]

Star Wars d20 gives DS points to anyone but using dark side powers does give DS points.

 

The idea is that anyone can fall into the dark side but its easier for people that use the force since they could call the dark side.

 

Of course the Star Wars d20 system is more complex, you dont get "light side" force points since it just calls then force points that can be used for a lot of things.

 

BioWare implementation was not too bad, only problem I see on it comes from their flawed force powers concept.

[Karzak]

Slaughtering sandpeople is not an evil act.

 

You should simply choose one or the other.

[Shneider]

I would argue that the system of applying such an artibrary scale of right and wrong is flawed (or light and dark as it were), in that it should be applied locally to these vaunted force adepts. The concept of force and destiny is in and of itself riddled with contradiction, in that given this concept of destiny none the less, it applies the determinist philosophy to which was referred.

[Karzak]

The dark side is powered from anger

 

The light side is powered from being a puswha

 

You choose, just like you pick an alignment in AD&D, and that is all there is to it.

[Gromnir]

bah.

 

di, don't listen to 'em... the biowarians biggest mistake is that they listen to the fans far too much. they try to make everybody happy rather than building the best game they can. reason why they waste so much effort on something as minor as robes in HotU weren't 'cause anybody at bioware thought robes was a good use of resources. most biowarians we know weren't really in favor of trying to get epic levels into HotU neither. bio keeps listening to the fans, and the fans is always asking for silly and often contradictory stuff.

 

heck, they still spend much effort trying to explain stuff to the slower members of the community

[Darque]

Slaughtering sandpeople is not an evil act.

 

You should simply choose one or the other.

How do you figure?

 

Or is this one of those things that only makes sense if you're Karzak?

[Karzak]

bah.

 

di, don't listen to 'em... the biowarians biggest mistake is that they listen to the fans far too much.  they try to make everybody happy rather than building the best game they can.

LOL, they do make the best game they can.

 

They don't listen to fans, fans been askin for pointy hats and robes for 5 years. If they put them in now it was because they wanted to, not because of fans. Not that I follow NWN developments much, but I would bet the Bioweenies ripped off a fan mod to put in robes.

 

Of course fanboys will always invent absurbities to support their masters.

[Drakron]

Well sort of ...

 

In Star Wars d20 (yes I am going to bother you all with this again) there is force points (note I said "force points" and not "light side points") that are gained by "dramatic heroism" (and when they gain a level) as Dark side points are a way to see how a character is close to go into the Dark side.

 

Its not exactly "aligment" as in D&D ...

[Karzak]

Slaughtering sandpeople is not an evil act.

 

How do you figure?

 

Sandpeople are the enemy. They are the bad ones. Killing evil creatures is the pure act of a paladunce, not of a evil dude.

[Darque]

Not really, both in the game and the movies I got the impression the Sandpeople were in a state of war against the non sandpeople.

 

That hardly makes them evil..

 

Also, Baby-Vader killed the women and children too... if they are considered non-combatants, that's clearly murder and therefore evil.

[Karzak]

Nope, the sandpeole attack without reason, and kill women and children themselves. Wiping them out is a good act, killing evil to protect good is good.

[Darque]

Did you actually "talk" to the sandpeople in KotOR or did you just slaughter them for XP?

 

If you communicate with them, you find out WHY they are constantly raiding.

 

And that reason is survival... and because their lands were invaded, they are no more evil than a bear in the woods.