next-gen console action RPG by Liquid Ent.

[Darque]

I want MY favorite genre to flourish and if possible at the expense of JRPGs.   I don't deny that at all. But then again, it is all about competition and survival of the fittest my favourites.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Erratum amended.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to agree with metaspam :D

[metadigital]

Yes. My favoutites must survive.

[Darque]

:D

[Lancer]

Yes. My favoutites must survive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Damn straight and at the expense of "your favourites!"

 

Except I am not British, so I'd use the american spelling.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Lancer

[Lancer]

This is assuming the magical "market growth." I mean, I could say if suddenly adventure games had huge growth in market share, we could start pumping them out.

 

 

 

My post (that you were replying to) made no indication about an increase in market share, and basically stated that suddenly increasing the amount of occidental RPGs into the market could hurt it, to which you replied "start pumping away."

 

JRPG developers pump out tons of games because it's what the people want.  If the people wanted occidental RPGs, then they'd be making them.

 

And I'm not buying that it's because there is a lack of occidental RPG games.  You said yourself that Sega had plenty on their genesis.  If those games were successful, we'd still get them on the consoles today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Alanschu, you are not rebutting my points at all, you are merely repeating them from slightly different angles and re-stating the obvious. Which is fine, that is if you have a lot of time on your hands. Circular logic, if you will...And for that I grant you the title of... *drum roll please*

Edited February 14, 2006 by Lancer

[Dark_Raven]

*Thread Pruned * of personal attacks. Do try and not do that. I think this thread can be salavaged so continue on the topic.

[alanschu]

This is assuming the magical "market growth." I mean, I could say if suddenly adventure games had huge growth in market share, we could start pumping them out.

 

 

 

My post (that you were replying to) made no indication about an increase in market share, and basically stated that suddenly increasing the amount of occidental RPGs into the market could hurt it, to which you replied "start pumping away."

 

JRPG developers pump out tons of games because it's what the people want.  If the people wanted occidental RPGs, then they'd be making them.

 

And I'm not buying that it's because there is a lack of occidental RPG games.  You said yourself that Sega had plenty on their genesis.  If those games were successful, we'd still get them on the consoles today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Alanschu, you are not rebutting my points at all, you are merely repeating them from slightly different angles and re-stating the obvious. Which is fine, that is if you have a lot of time on your hands. Circular logic, if you will...And for that I grant you the title of... *drum roll please*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Interesting...you call me captain obvious when I had already repeatedly called you that in this "discussion."

 

The reason why I'm not rebutting your points is because you aren't making any. You're just talking about this magical utopia where suddenly your game genre of choice survives. You haven't bothered to explain why or how this will happen, and when people mention possible obstacles, such as hardware, you claim that hardware will just take care of itself. As such, you come off has having a gross misunderstanding of the way industry works.

 

It seems you've casted the magical "lalalala" spell because when people try to address issues and obstacles to what you would like, you simply proclaim that the issues or either insignificant (with no real reason), or that they don't fall under your unique classification of "issues."

 

 

Don't call me "captain obvious" when you were the one making a claim that if occidental RPGs had more market penetration, they could become more popular. The circular logic parts of my posts was when I was trying to figure out what you were doing, and reiterating how you were the one using circular logic.

Edited February 15, 2006 by alanschu

[Lancer]

"The reason why I'm not rebutting your points is because you aren't making any.  You're just talking about this magical utopia where suddenly your game genre of choice survives.  You haven't bothered to explain why or how this will happen, and when people mention possible obstacles, such as hardware, you claim that hardware will just take care of itself.  As such, you come off has having a gross misunderstanding of the way industry works.

 

 

You totally misunderstand my points then. I never talked about a "magical utopia" nor was the point of my points to explain how this "magical utopia" would come about. It was merely to address that the real issue at hand is not the hardware (because we pretty much have that anyway, we just haven't had the need to use it..again the market for occidental RPGs on the console is pretty minimal), it is making occidental RPGs more attractive to the console gamer.

 

And since when did you offer *your* ideas about rectifying the interface problem? Last time I checked you haven't bothered with that either.

 

I can offer some suggestions on *how* to increase demand for occidental RPGs, but that is a different point to make and the current discussion hasn't been about that. (And had you paid attention, you would have noticed I had already given a suggestion to Roleplayer earlier in this thread..)

 

Don't call me "captain obvious" when you were the one making a claim that if occidental RPGs had more market penetration, they could become more popular.  The circular logic parts of my posts was when I was trying to figure out what you were doing, and reiterating how you were the one using circular logic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Alanschu, you are an unparalleled master at miscomprehending people's posts and twising their points until they convenient your "argument." This is what I *really* said:

 

I said if the occidental RPG market somehow becomes a significantly large market on consoles, they (the developers) would have to address the keyboard/interface/controller issue if sufficient fans complain that the controller provided isn't viable.

 

 

YOU are the one twisting my words and claiming that I had said" if occidental RPGs had more market penetration they could become more popular."-- An absurd allegation that I have never stated... You have already blatantly twisted my words on at least another occasion when you wanted to claim I was advocating peripherals, when I wasn't. I am merely saying that the hardware is the least of concerns as you yourself HERE have admitted that the technology isn't the problem... In addition to bring in something about peripherals I never mentioned :

 

If quality occidental RPGs do in fact require a specialized controller (even if it is just a keyboard), then they are already at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter how much of a technological challenge it is (it isn't one).

 

Because of this, I have repeatedly stated that worrying about the hardware isn't the pressing issue, as the much more pertinent one is establishing the fanbase.

 

Simply put, there is just not enough demand for occidental RPGs on consoles to justify revamping the controller just so that a relative few can play these games to their satisfaction. Which is again, my point again, about needing to increase market penetration to the point where there is ample justification for these said things to occur.

 

I mean, who is going to hear people's pleas about "interface" issues for a market that barely exists? It is like "crying wolf" when there is no wolf. Just the fact that no contemporary console has yet addressed the "interface" issue although "some" (albeit small group) play occidental console RPGs proves my point. Why is this "savior" interface controller not here yet alanschu? What was this about hardware driving software again? "

 

If the technology isn't the problem, nor am I espousing the use of peripherals, then what exactly are you arguing against? Are you going to give me more obvious statements about producer-consumer relationships instead of discussing the matter at hand?

 

 

And I will leave it at the following:

 

I don't know about that. You need to start by getting the console players interested in PC-style RPGS first before worrying about revolutionary keyboards and such. Just because you redesign a controller to become friendly to PC-style RPGs, doesn't mean that all of a sudden console players will be playing these RPGs. When the market expands to the point that hardware considerations become an issue, then worry about them then.

 

This is not to say that hardware will definitely need modifying, but it may become something that is decided upon down the line if enough people complain about it (not just a couple of people on this forum). I personally admit to having no problem playing occidental RPGs with a controller (since I have done that for quite a long time already), but I am not sure how the rest of the potential market would feel. If it were up to me, the current base controllers are just fine, but oh well...

Edited February 15, 2006 by Lancer

[Lancer]

To make a long story short, you want a more user-friendly "interface" on console to be able to play occidental RPGs?.....

 

Then increase demand several fold for occidental console RPGs and it will come. Otherwise, you are just preaching to the choir.

 

Developers aren't going to bother if the collective voice advocating a "new interface" isn't large enough.

 

And they won't bother making peripherals just for that tiny minority either.. Console companies are fully aware what happens to sales when they do that.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

You totally misunderstand my points then. I never talked about a "magical utopia" nor was the point of my points to explain how this "magical utopia" would come about. It was merely to address that the real issue at hand is not the hardware (because we pretty much have that anyway, we just haven't had the need to use it..again the market for occidental RPGs on the console is pretty minimal), it is making occidental RPGs more attractive to the console gamer.

 

If the hardware is inadequate for a complex RPG environment, how do you make it more attractive to the console gamer? It could be the best game in the world, but if the controls are awkward, it's not going to be an attractive option.

 

 

And since when did you offer *your* ideas about rectifying the interface problem? Last time I checked you haven't bothered with that either.

 

IMO, someone is going to have to gamble with a default controller type that makes these game experiences more possible. I'm don't have a huge amount of ideas regarding it though, because I don't really think it will happen....no matter how much I want it to. I think that the Catch-22 has stymied it, and will continue to. The other alternative is for the XBOX 360 to perform really, really well. Even though I found them to still be "simple" RPG games, KOTOR and Morrowind have demonstrated that perhaps we can make a push in through there. But in my opinion, games such as Jade Empire seem to indicate that occidental RPGs are the ones adapting to make themselves work in a console environment. In the end, I doubt the game type that you or I want (the Torment/Fallout type experience) is what the end result will be.

 

You totally misunderstand my points then. I never talked about a "magical utopia" nor was the point of my points to explain how this "magical utopia" would come about. It was merely to address that the real issue at hand is not the hardware (because we pretty much have that anyway, we just haven't had the need to use it..again the market for occidental RPGs on the console is pretty minimal), it is making occidental RPGs more attractive to the console gamer.

 

Except I had mentioned that, in my opinion, your solution is a weak situation at best. You talked about a squad-based strategy RPG hybrid working. The thing is, that will still require an acceptable control scheme for it to be popular, which will only reinforce that the current control scheme is working. In the end, I don't think it makes much progress at all with respect to getting occidental RPGs on the consoles. At best, it serves to continue to redefine occidental RPGs in the not so positive trend they've been going down.

 

YOU are the one twisting my words and claiming that I had said" if occidental RPGs had more market penetration they could become more popular."-- An absurd allegation that I have never stated... You have already blatantly twisted my words on at least another occasion when you wanted to claim I was advocating peripherals, when I wasn't. I am merely saying that the hardware is the least of concerns as you yourself HERE have admitted that the technology isn't the problem... In addition to bring in something about peripherals I never mentioned rolleyes.gif

 

Creating the controller is not the problem. It's getting the controller on the market. And that step has to come first. Creating it is easy. But tons of neat ideas get created in the world. They don't mean anything if it's not economically viable to implement them.

 

Also:

If there is sufficient demand for a product, that product will be made

 

And it comes down to developers breaking into the market by creating console RPGs that console gamers would play..That is their job and my hope is that they will be successful

 

Simply put, there is just not enough demand for occidental RPGs on consoles to justify revamping the controller just so that a relative few can play these games to their satisfaction. Which is again, my point again, about needing to increase market penetration to the point where there is ample justification for these said things to occur.

 

It's the catch-22.

 

I mean, who is going to hear people's pleas about "interface" issues for a market that barely exists? It is like "crying wolf" when there is no wolf. Just the fact that no contemporary console has yet addressed the "interface" issue although "some" (albeit small group) play occidental console RPGs proves my point. Why is this "savior" interface controller not here yet alanschu? What was this about hardware driving software again? whistling.gif

 

Which is why, IMO, the market for console occidental RPGs is ****ed. I don't see games such as Oblivion really helping things out that much, and I wonder how well a game such as KOTOR would have done if it didn't have an exceptionally popular license behind it.

 

 

It's clear we have have a difference in how things are going. I don't see creating RPG-lite games as providing anything more than RPG-lite demand.

[Llyranor]

Meh, the required 'complexity' of the PC interface lies mostly for combat or excessive micromanagement. I could care less if those are removed. PST's story elements could have been made for a console - why it hasn't has nothing to do with the interface.

 

Besides, the trend of current PC RPGs isn't really 'lol complexity' anyway.

[alanschu]

Fair enough, the dialogues and plot could be done either way. I suppose you could argue that that is the most important thing. Though that doesn't make things much better when looking at the situation. I wouldn't say that Morrowind nor KOTOR were shining examples of story elements and dialogue.

 

And I agree, PC RPGs have been lacking in their complexity and whatnot lately as well.

[Llyranor]

Hopefully, KOTOR was just the beginning. I was quite happy with KOTOR2, which was well-received by the console world anyway. If that's any indication, with bugs and time constraints being less of an issue, Obs' next console games should be an improvement. It's a slow transition, but it's a transition nevertheless. If devs need to go to consoles for their full-fledged RPGs to be commercially viable, even if that means consolizing the combat system (which wouldn't be anything worse than all the freaking action RPGs we get on PC anyway), then so be it.

[alanschu]

How much did the setting help in a game like KOTOR?

 

I'm skeptical as to how popular it would have been had it not been set in the Star Wars universe.

 

As for the consolization of the combat, we've already seen it with Jade Empire.

[Llyranor]

And look at JE's popularity in comparison. Setting plays a huge part, of course.

 

On the other hand, new IPs can do quite well. God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, Katamari, those all seem to have been well-received, though I'm not sure how they did financially.

 

As for JE, not having played it, I don't know how much they consolized the story/roleplaying itself. If they didn't at all, then the combat is a non-issue for me. Heck, tactical combat is more common in console RPGs than in PC ones nowadays. lol irony

[Lancer]

Meh, the required 'complexity' of the PC interface lies mostly for combat or excessive micromanagement. I could care less if those are removed. PST's story elements could have been made for a console - why it hasn't has nothing to do with the interface.

 

This is another reason why the real challenge is making the fanbase dig these "complex" games like PS:T. 'Tis a real challenge indeed.

[Lancer]

If the hardware is inadequate for a complex RPG environment, how do you make it more attractive to the console gamer?  It could be the best game in the world, but if the controls are awkward, it's not going to be an attractive option.

 

KotOR and Morrowind both work just fine with the present controller.

 

I am going to have to repeat this (and so has Hades mentioned this..):

There were several PC-style RPG games (a la AD&D Gold Box) made for the Sega Genesis and the 3 button controller for the Sega worked like a charm. If the Sega Genesis controller was able to run PC-style RPGs no problem, then it would be a joke for modern consoles.

 

I personally think that people are complaining about an "interface issue" that doesn't really exist. Perhaps, it is because PC gamers are so used to playing with a mouse and keyboard that they only "perceive" that a controller setup would be an interface issue when it really isn't one? Another point to make is that remember these are "console" gamers that are used to controllers we are talking about here. What might be an interface issue to you, might not be for them.

 

IMO, The "problem" is seriously blown out of proportion. I don't think there is a catch-22. The real problem is that console gamers overwhelmingly play JRPGS over occidental RPGs. Breaking that mentality is what this is all about. Until you do that, FF will run past 50!

 

 

IMO, someone is going to have to gamble with a default controller type that makes these game experiences more possible.  I'm don't have a huge amount of ideas regarding it though, because I don't really think it will happen....no matter how much I want it to.

 

It doesn't need to. The standard controllers work just fine. The real issue is establishing a significant fanbase devoted to occidental RPGS. If you played any of the Genesis RPGs, you might change your viewpoint on the severity of interface issues as well.

 

I think that the Catch-22 has stymied it, and will continue to.  The other alternative is for the XBOX 360 to perform really, really well.  Even though I found them to still be "simple" RPG games, KOTOR and Morrowind have demonstrated that perhaps we can make a push in through there.  But in my opinion, games such as Jade Empire seem to indicate that occidental RPGs are the ones adapting to make themselves work in a console environment.

 

If there are any consoles I am rooting for to establish a strong empire of occidental RPGs, they would be the Xbox consoles. The Japanese consoles will always be dominated by a strong JRPG lineup (obviously), although, the Genesis was a peculiar exception. The Microsoft consoles have the best chance of breaking in with true PC-style RPGs.

 

 

In the end, I doubt the game type that you or I want (the Torment/Fallout type experience) is what the end result will be.

 

This is sad but you know what, they don't even make games like those for the PC anymore.

 

 

Except I had mentioned that, in my opinion, your solution is a weak situation at best.  You talked about a squad-based strategy RPG hybrid working.  The thing is, that will still require an acceptable control scheme for it to be popular, which will only reinforce that the current control scheme is working.

 

Then how do you explain that the Sega controller was able to handle both Herzog Zwei and Dune II (both RTS games) no problem? In fact, the Sega Genesis version of Dune II was just as fun and arguably even better than the PC version.

No. I think that modern consoles would have no problem with these sort of games.

 

 

Which is why, IMO, the market for console occidental RPGs is ****ed.  I don't see games such as Oblivion really helping things out that much, and I wonder how well a game such as KOTOR would have done if it didn't have an exceptionally popular license behind it.

 

Maybe a strong "brand name" is what is needed at the onset to begin establishing that fanbase? We need more Star Wars RPGs, maybe a few Star Trek RPGs, Lord of the Rings RPGs. a Matrix RPG..etc. Big names like these will have a chance of becoming big sellers. And then with loads of cash earned from these brand-name RPGs, can a company (like Obsidian or Bioware) afford to take a risk on more adventurous projects (like a Torment, Ultima, or Fallout-like game) to see the industry's response.

 

 

It's clear we have have a difference in how things are going.  I don't see creating RPG-lite games as providing anything more than RPG-lite demand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The console market is a different mentality altogether. Like you said, you can't start releasing a hundred Torments (or Fallouts, or Ultima VIIs) and hope for the best. Torment wasn't even that financially successful on the PC. I am not advocating doom and gloom, nor did I say that it wasn't going to be difficult, but I still think it is possible. You and I both want to see our favorite genre prosper (although with differences of opinion), no doubt, but it will take an unfettered and positive mind to see a solution to the current trend of mediocrity... Both on console and PC.

 

Saying that this would be impossible would be giving up. It is not impossible, but it is a big undertaking.

Edited February 16, 2006 by Lancer

[metadigital]

I personally think that people are complaining about an "interface issue" that doesn't really exist. Perhaps, it is because PC gamers are so used to playing with a mouse and keyboard that they only "perceive" that a controller setup would be an interface issue when it really isn't one? Another point to make is that remember these are "console" gamers that are used to controllers we are talking about here. What might be an interface issue to you, might not be for them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The mouse is far and away a better interface. It certainly won't work to optimum efficacity on a lap; it doesn't lend itself to lounge-room game playing.

 

Whether it is a show-stopper for occidental RPGs is another matter.

I don't think there is a catch-22. The real problem is that console gamers overwhelmingly play JRPGS over occidental RPGs. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This assumes that console users have been given a choice between the two types of RPGs of equal quality. Not sure that has been the case.

If there are any consoles I am rooting for to establish a strong empire of occidental RPGs, they would be the Xbox consoles. The Japanese consoles will always be dominated by a strong JRPG lineup (obviously), although, the Genesis was a peculiar exception. The Microsoft consoles have the best chance of breaking in with true PC-style RPGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do Japanese consoles have to be dominated by JRPGs? Unless it depends on the controller, which it doesn't, then there is no reason to suppose that branching stories and multiple endings with different characters can't be the norm. Unless there is another limiting factor of consoles, like hardware (RAM, GPU, etc).

... the current trend of mediocrity ... Both on console and PC. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Disco!

[Gabrielle]

... the current trend of mediocrity ... Both on console and PC. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Disco!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hate disco.

[alanschu]

KotOR and Morrowind both work just fine with the present controller.

 

They did. Though they did so with little competition. I don't know if I would consider Morrowind as really being an appropriate (or promising) game type for creating inroads for CRPG games. KOTOR moreso, but in comparison the Bioware followup Jade Empire, I'm skeptical as to how effective it was. Granted you aren't saying that it will happen quickly.

 

I am going to have to repeat this (and so has Hades mentioned this..):

There were several PC-style RPG games (a la AD&D Gold Box) made for the Sega Genesis and the 3 button controller for the Sega worked like a charm. If the Sega Genesis controller was able to run PC-style RPGs no problem, then it would be a joke for modern consoles.

 

I never played the games. Keep in mind you also like these types of games, and would not find a poorer interface to be as much of an obstacle. I know I can play a game like Europa Univeralis 2/Hearts of Iron 2 which really don't have very good interfaces, but because I love the type of game I can look past the bizarre design decision they made with their interface. All it did was mean it took me longer to learn how to play the game effectively. If you're trying to create a new market though, the interface needs to be rock solid.

 

I personally think that people are complaining about an "interface issue" that doesn't really exist. Perhaps, it is because PC gamers are so used to playing with a mouse and keyboard that they only "perceive" that a controller setup would be an interface issue when it really isn't one? Another point to make is that remember these are "console" gamers that are used to controllers we are talking about here. What might be an interface issue to you, might not be for them.

 

Fair enough.

 

It doesn't need to. The standard controllers work just fine. The real issue is establishing a significant fanbase devoted to occidental RPGS. If you played any of the Genesis RPGs, you might change your viewpoint on the severity of interface issues as well.

 

Perhaps. Though given the speculative nature of our whole discussion, is it safe to assume that the ultimate failures of these games (lets face it, they certainly didn't spawn a plethora of occidental RPGs onto the market, so I'm going to assume that they didn't sell well) is due simply because the console market didn't prefer them?

 

Though to be honest, I wouldn't consider the Gold Box games to be much of an achievement either. I didn't like them much when I was a kid, and I still don't like them much now. Which Gold Box games actually made the cut on to the Genesis? A game like Eye of the Beholder is quite a bit different in how it plays compared to Pool of Radiance. How true are they as well? I never felt the console Ultimas were particularly faithful to the Ultima franchise.

 

This is sad but you know what, they don't even make games like those for the PC anymore.

 

Which isn't too surprising. Games like Torment didn't bring in the capital necessary.

 

 

Then how do you explain that the Sega controller was able to handle both Herzog Zwei and Dune II (both RTS games) no problem? In fact, the Sega Genesis version of Dune II was just as fun and arguably even better than the PC version.

No. I think that modern consoles would have no problem with these sort of games

 

Speaking from a position of bias, I didn't think that Dune II on the Genesis was handled "no problem." And after I played it on the PC, I could not go back to the Genesis version. I guess it can work if people don't know any better. After all, there are people that claim controllers are perfectly fine for FPS games.

 

Maybe a strong "brand name" is what is needed at the onset to begin establishing that fanbase? We need more Star Wars RPGs, maybe a few Star Trek RPGs, Lord of the Rings RPGs. a Matrix RPG..etc. Big names like these will have a chance of becoming big sellers. And then with loads of cash earned from these brand-name RPGs, can a company (like Obsidian or Bioware) afford to take a risk on more adventurous projects (like a Torment, Ultima, or Fallout-like game) to see the industry's response.

 

I don't disagree, those big license games require big money to begin with. And if they are anything but a big seller, then it will have negative consequences. You'll definitely have to have people make "adventurous" products to test the waters, but given all the information you've posted regarding the Sega Genesis...it sounds like they already have. The problem is compounded now that even "risk" games still require mountains of actual capital to make. Testing uncharted waters with millions of dollars increases the risk that much more.

 

The console market is a different mentality altogether. Like you said, you can't start releasing a hundred Torments (or Fallouts, or Ultima VIIs) and hope for the best. Torment wasn't even that financially successful on the PC. I am not advocating doom and gloom, nor did I say that it wasn't going to be difficult, but I still think it is possible. You and I both want to see our favorite genre prosper (although with differences of opinion), no doubt, but it will take an unfettered and positive mind to see a solution to the current trend of mediocrity... Both on console and PC.

 

Saying that this would be impossible would be giving up. It is not impossible, but it is a big undertaking.

 

Yeah, I suppose it can be said that I'm sort of giving up. I don't necessarily think it's impossible, just exceptionally improbable. I don't think occidental RPGs will disappear, because there's always a market for them. But it would require quite a cultural shift as whole (most of which entirely outside of control of game developers) to affect the demand for RPG games. The root of the problem is more cultural IMO, and not just differences between console/PC, because even the occidental RPGs that exist for the PC are already a niche market. For every Torment sold, many more Quakes, World of Warcrafts, and whatnots get sold.

[Llyranor]

I remember playing a Pool of Radiance port to the NES.

 

Horrible. Just freaking horrible.

[Lancer]

I remember playing a Pool of Radiance port to the NES.

 

Horrible. Just freaking horrible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You should see SNES's atrocious Ultima VII port

Anything Nintendo-related is horrible..

 

But then again, I am a SEGA fanboy :ph34r:

Edited February 16, 2006 by Lancer

[Lancer]

I think a lot of PC gamers that complain about interface issues probably didn't grow up playing a lot of console games.

 

It sounds like the interface issues may be more of a "comfort" or "familiarity" issue than anything else.

[Lancer]

I never played the games.  Keep in mind you also like these types of games, and would not find a poorer interface to be as much of an obstacle. 

 

I can honestly say I am just as comfortable with the console interface as I am with the PC interface. I practically grew up playing the Sega Genesis, Atari 2600, Sega Master System, TurboGrafx16, Nintendo alongside the Commodore 64... and then later the PC.

To me a controller doesn't feel odd or unnatural, even in an RPG, quite the contrary.

 

Though to be honest, I wouldn't consider the Gold Box games to be much of an achievement either.  I didn't like them much when I was a kid, and I still don't like them much now.  Which Gold Box games actually made the cut on to the Genesis?

 

A game like Eye of the Beholder is quite a bit different in how it plays compared to Pool of Radiance.  How true are they as well?  I never felt the console Ultimas were particularly faithful to the Ultima franchise.

 

The SNES Ultima VII was crap. Eye of the Beholder, I didn't like either.. That was just a first person dungeon crawl.

But the Sega version of Buck Rogers, Warriors of the Eternal Sun, Shadowrun and the TurboGrafx16 version of Order of the Griffon were very very much like a game you would play on the PC. In other words, they weren't dungeon crawls or action RPGs. They were "real" RPGs with awesome turn-based combat and superior to many of the PC games during that period (Dungeon Hack, Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore, FRUA) Or at least, I thought so. In fact, there was a time I hated PC RPGs precisely because I thought that the Sega Genesis ones were so much better. And that is the honest truth! It wasn't until I played Torment and BG1 that I made the permanent switch to PC.

 

BTW, the Sega Buck Rogers was the Gold Box port. Warriors of the Eternal Sun and Order of the Griffon are sort of like improved versions of the Gold Box games. They were all made by SSI.

 

I don't disagree, those big license games require big money to begin with.  And if they are anything but a big seller, then it will have negative consequences.  You'll definitely have to have people make "adventurous" products to test the waters, but given all the information you've posted regarding the Sega Genesis...it sounds like they already have.

 

Well. I think SEGA realized after the Genesis that JRPGS would be far more profitable. And Sega, being a japanese developer, (unlike Obsidian or Bioware) had no real attachment (or the reputation) to create solely PC-style RPGs. That and the fact that NONE of the occidental RPGs on the Genesis had good marketing programs.. Not one. They never caught on partly because they didn't have the advertising campaigns that Squaresoft's Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger did. I mean, I bet you haven't even heard of some of those titles although names like Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger have been household names since I was a kid.

Even Sega's JRPGS like Phantasy Star and Shining Force were far more popular than their occidental cousins.

 

 

Yeah, I suppose it can be said that I'm sort of giving up.  I don't necessarily think it's impossible, just exceptionally improbable.  I don't think occidental RPGs will disappear, because there's always a market for them.  But it would require quite a cultural shift as whole (most of which entirely outside of control of game developers) to affect the demand for RPG games.  The root of the problem is more cultural IMO, and not just differences between console/PC, because even the occidental RPGs that exist for the PC are already a niche market.  For every Torment sold, many more Quakes, World of Warcrafts, and whatnots get sold.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If the occidental RPG is doomed to be a niche market along with the rising development costs for PC games and the emphasis towards pretty, flashy graphics with less substance--- It may be that the best market for real RPGs is the indie market. That may be the future for hardcore gamers.

Edited February 16, 2006 by Lancer

[Lancer]

The mouse is far and away a better interface. It certainly won't work to optimum efficacity on a lap; it doesn't lend itself to lounge-room game playing.

 

Whether it is a show-stopper for occidental RPGs is another matter.

 

For me personally, it hasn't been a showstopper for the occidental RPGs I have played on consoles.. But then again, I grew up playing on consoles too.

 

This assumes that console users have been given a choice between the two types of RPGs of equal quality. Not sure that has been the case.

 

True in many cases, although I'd argue that Sega's occidental RPGs were better than its JRPGs, but I digress..

 

It also assumes that both types of RPGs have been given an adequate advertising campaign. In the case of occidental RPGs, that hasn't been the case more often than not.

 

 

Why do Japanese consoles have to be dominated by JRPGs? Unless it depends on the controller, which it doesn't, then there is no reason to suppose that branching stories and multiple endings with different characters can't be the norm. Unless there is another limiting factor of consoles, like hardware (RAM, GPU, etc).

 

That is the PC gamer talking in you.. And I agree. How can anyone in their right mind prefer those linear, one-path,one-ending button mashers over something with branching stories, multiple endings, true character creation/customization and good strategic based combat ?

There may be cultural issues.. Not to mention the issue of what one grew up and is familiar with.

Edited February 16, 2006 by Lancer