Mythic structure in RPGs/video games in general

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I'll be more than happy to write NWN2 modules once the game's released.

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... And there was much rejoicing! (w00t)

 

(Would you do the Richard Bachman thing ...?)

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Jes'Awyer (or Dale Landers in a reference to the Dalelands) introducing: The Black Hound?

[Llyranor]

Hmm, the Black Hound as a series of Digital Distribution mods would be instant purchases from me.\

 

Heck, I'd pretty much support anything JE churns out.

[alanschu]

Did someone just say that a computer game cost a mere couple of thousand dollars to make in 1996?

 

And that it's not much more expensive today?

Edited February 8, 2006 by alanschu

[Llyranor]

Yeah, games don't take millions to make nowadays, lol

[metadigital]

Except the pesky Carmack, he made Doom RPG for the 3G 'phones for a few bottle tops and burnt cigarette ends.

[Cantousent]

Hmm, the Black Hound as a series of Digital Distribution mods would be instant purchases from me.\

 

Heck, I'd pretty much support anything JE churns out.

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I won't go so far as to say that I would support anything he creates, but I'm disposed towards giving him a lot of leeway to find his creative voice and I'm willing to try or even purchase modules that I enjoy.

 

He can't do a Troika and rest on his laurels, but he can expect a lot of folks to give him a chance. Probably a good long chance.

 

Of course, meta has the right of it. He should probably go all Bachman with his modules. I just hope he doesn't.

[metadigital]

Mr King said that there were some hard core fans of his that wrote to Bachman telling him they KNEW he was Stephen King.

 

 

Fan(atics), eh? Scary. No-one like that around here, is there ...

[Gabrielle]

I like fanatics.

[Cantousent]

I like fanatics. 

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Self-love?

[Gabrielle]

I like fanatics. 

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Self-love?

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Love thyself.

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

By the way, I suppose I should cover all of my statements in this thread with this general idea: I would like a fair amount of people to play the games I make.  If I were only interested in pleasing my own sensibilities, I probably wouldn't try to make CRPGs.  I'd write stories or make pen and paper games for myself and my three closest friends.

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This being said, notice what stupid games sell largely because the target audience has little better choice within that category: this would show a bored and sad target audience. Notice popular themes that are usually poorly wrought. See what is accounted as the two best expressions of this theme and game type. Hit the market with something better. Of course, actual consumer interest in a type of game and corporate self-purchasing might be two different issues entirely. What's to stop a rich coproration from buying a substantial portion of its own game just to give the market analysts a bad idea of what's being bought and sold, hence skewing the viewpoint and strategies of smaller independent companies.

 

It's probably best to approach the game through what you objectively notice is interesting and probably entertaining and what others in your group of friends honestly enjoy.

 

Ever play Top Secret, the spy roleplaying game, or the more recent Spycraft? This could suggest a multilayer (not multiplayer) spy game, perhaps one of the most involved and interesting type of CRPG, and the closest game to this is Republic: the Revolution.

 

Now imagine what would happen if a game like Republic: the Revolution were a spy game instead of a rabblerouser game, had an FPS element, chase tactics, and allowed player-defined objectives and player-defined missions (that is, as a spy administrator, the player would note what information was available, send spies on missions, then play these spies if they prefer.

 

Now, add in actual personalities for the spies and for important NPC, add in large game events that accrue into a story, and you have a CSRPG thematic to spycraft.

 

The same can work for a computer game about stuffed animals too, or about superheroes, or about sports teams, or entertainment (the porn industry and MMORPG design industry included), or really any theme and game subject matter.

Edited February 12, 2006 by saintfrancisnudecenterfold

[Cantousent]

....entertainment (the porn industry and MMORPG design industry included)...

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Clever, saint. Very clever. Even such industries as porn and MMORPG?

 

You're still talking about a particular type of design. I'm not saying your idea isn't original. I don't know if it is or not. I think such a design endeavor could quickly become a game of mini-games. That might satisfy some customers, but the end result might look like something entirely different that what you now envision.

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

Even such industries as porn and MMORPG?

 

Well, how many CRPG do you see about MMORPG design? Glorified and filled with superhero themed activities, CRPG about designing and running an MMORPG might be really, really popular. Porn would also work well, although I can see this working better within FPS/CRPG alloys.

 

For anyone who has seen the glorious short film "The Crimson Permenant Assurance", you can imagine how brilliant the battles between MMORPG design/development teams might be. MMORPG desdev teams are often stupid, brutal, and dangerous; the same could be said of many porn stars, especially amateur porn stars, especially amateur porn stars that lead dual lives as secret, shameful MMORPG desdev employee (admittedly they look cute flying around in the black trenchcoats with bloody swords in their hands).

 

You'd be surprised what goes on behind the scenes as "aggressive corporate activity" in MMO companies.

 

I'm not going to name any names, besides the fact that I'm going out with a girl who looks remarkably like the daughter of a certain MMO design celebrity nicknamed Provincial Man or somesuch who I managed to best in konjutso, nor the dirt I have on a certain self-styled reagent of North France, besides the well known fact that he's a notorious scoundrel who runs a few underground camguy websites and has singlehandedly slain five hundred cybernetically enhanced manatees.

 

There is terror and chaos in the world, but it's fun when it's in a CRPG. So why not put the wicked, wicked world of MMO desdev into CRPG format? Think of the money, man, the money.

[Cantousent]

Now, that post was priceless, my sainted centerfold friend. hahahaha

 

:Eldar's furiously taking notes icon:

[metadigital]

I'm still trying to understand how that would work with a set of multi-sided dice and some pencils and paper ...

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

I'm still trying to understand how that would work with a set of multi-sided dice and some pencils and paper ...

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Very easily, if you're talking about a CRPG based in the porn industry, set to some very magic realist and fabular themes, and it needn't have much to do with banality and crudity. If you are considering a CRPG based on the MMORPG industry, that could work as well. When I first heard of D20 Modern, I thought, "Wow! I can't wait to see what they'll do with technology here. Mass production of magical items, telecommunications technology amplifying magical range, fighters who specialise in aeronautic battle, special forces developed specifically to maintain and defend national interest in outer plane regions..."

 

And I was summarily dissapointed. D20 Modern should have relied on the D&D books and offered new technology applications and changes to professions based on the modern age. A Grayhawk Modern should've been implemented along with it since Greyhawk is the official campaign setting. Of course, Wizards of the Coast had used up all their invention points, to borrow a Villains and Vigilantes term, or they were taking a break.

 

In any case, CRPG based in a magical and thought-provoking porn industry, in a fantasized MMO design and publication industry, are all so very possible. Playfulness and invention are important in any undertaking. Social commentary of the sort that encourages people to take creative strides for the betterment of the entertainment industry (and the world) is also important. That games be fun is often a good thing. However, this does not mean that any sort of game will change the world, simply that games can be encouraging.

 

That game designers have fun in the making of these games can be important too.

[metadigital]

I think you have been watching a double-bill of Minority Report and Serenity, followed by a big cheese plate before bed, to achieve that mix of ideas.

[Gabrielle]

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

I think you have been watching a double-bill of Minority Report and Serenity, followed by a big cheese plate before bed, to achieve that mix of ideas.

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Actually, I usually eat a baked til browned ready-to-cook pizza, watch some webcam, play a bit of TW, then get some sleep.

Edited February 13, 2006 by saintfrancisnudecenterfold

[metadigital]

Monosondium Glutomate!

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

The cohesion and productivity of most enthusiast-comprised development groups are, at best, lacking.  This tendency is unsurprising: enthusiasm is seldom sustained in the face of adversity unless backed by cold, hard cash.

 

If there is not sufficient reason to believe ourselves and our family are going to be safe and happy, with a promising future for the young, it is only obvious that the computer games we are designing are worthless.

 

Ok. I understand that one. It's not just meat and potatoes, it's diplomas.

 

Interestingly enough, Atlus and Square-Enix are still in business despite having been leagues behind US computer games in terms of graphics.

 

Hence the rarity of success among indie games of professional ambition, especially those not mods of existing games.

 

Polish and quality are usually in the lack of bugs, the quality of gameplay, and the entertainment value, not in graphics and music, although graphics and music can be excellent if good artists are found, even not those who are well known within "commercial art" cliques.

 

Hey. Hey. Is that a -- internet. An internet?!

 

Wait, I can download a game from a designer I trust and admire? For... money?

 

An indy game might get away with subpar 2D graphics, but does so largely to the chagrin of enthusiasts, whose visions of grandeur cannot be satisfied by a game far behind the times.

 

Say, is Square still selling those subpar 2D graphics games?

 

Quick, call the mallrat mob, subpar 2D graphics games FROM JAPAN!

 

A mod using a professional engine suffers from the lack of artists (obviously) unless its goals are principally revisionary.  Consequently, that's what successful mods typically are: they mod the rules a tad, add a few new models, and try to make the most of existing assets.

 

Yeesh. It's planning, man, it's all in the ideas. Once you've got a text-parser, go with it. Also, you know what? I'd play a text based MMORPG presuming quality gameplay values and writing of excellence.

 

As to mods? I never met a mod I liked since before 1999. The Bhaalspawn thing wasn't the best mod, you know, but it was a mod.

 

Since we're talking about RPGs here, the problem worsens.  RPGs, unlike FPSs and strategy games, are primarily games of content.  Their quality is often analogized to cinematic quality, which implies the unity of graphical, musical, textual, and game-mechanical assets.

 

Wrong paradigm entirely. Yeah, Bioware and Black Isle and Obsidian have done the whole cinematic storyteller bit. Problem is, instead of allowing their story to be partitioned by open strategic gameplay, they have videogame stuff, monster after monster, in sequenced quests, without the feel of D&D exploration.

 

RPGs were founded from tactical miniature battle rules. What we should be looking at is how computer strategy games incorporate roleplaying traditions (such as experience, attributes, traits and such) then instead of modding, consider what is pleasurable about a strategic game and approach the creation of an open-ended roleplaying game with story elements.

 

Ok. Back to Baldur's Gate. Now, along with having characters spout dialogue based on quests that kindasorta fit into a story, allow that these characters will report what goes on around them in ways that also kindasorta fit into the story, and maybe allow them to take independent actions that make sense based on personality traits, situation, and character sheet stuff. If you want a slower intro to this kinda game, try including a new NPC type besides merchant, quest-giver, atmospheric, partymember, and enemy: the independent hero.

 

I guess you could see CRPG as advancing to the next stage after reflecting on what lessons MMOCRPG have granted: how to deal with multiple independent heroes without making the individual player feel as if they're losing potential victories and playing a shrinking game. Just keep the independent hero away from story-specific quests and in situations where there is a massive dungeon.

 

There's a value-analytic reason why the vast majority of FPS and RTS mods refuse to include a single-player campaign, but what is a RPG if not a single-player campaign? You certainly can't add a half dozen monsters to a RPG, change around the combat rules, and call yourself a dedicated enthusiast.  You've got to create an entirely new game: complete with its own story, characters, and dynamics.  When people dream of making RPGs, this is what they dream.

 

Funny, it might also work to set up a game without much of a story but provide NPC with independent activity as a hero. Do you know how many years I've been trying to explain this idea? Since before Baldur's Gate, even into the eighties.

 

Toolsets like NWN ease the pain of indie development at the expense of quality.  For fans, this is an acceptable trade-off, but let me ask you this: when was the last time a enthusiast-made module made you shiver in ecstasy the same way a professional effort did?

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Ech. Some professional games are designed by enthusiasts, which is why these games are good: because the designer loves their job. You are defining enthusiast as "untalented unenthusiastic amateur" which pretty much summarises the breadth of unenthusiastic and unskilled module design, often designed without love, without enthusiasm, without unique substance.

[Azarkon]

There tends to be a huge gap between enthusiasts who get paid (with livable wages) for what they're doing and enthusiasts who do not. The difference of eight hours / day of work in a team with proven talent & dedication versus having to work a second job amidst a environment where people do or do not do as they please. I was speaking of the latter, in case the tone was ambiguous.

 

You bring up the example of non-linear, free-form gameplay, but games of this genre tend to be even more time- and resource-consuming to create with any semblance of roleplaying beyond hack 'n slash. Sure, you can make the equivalent of Angband in your basement - look at Jeff Vogel's work - but such production can never reach the quality of what most people here envision as great RPGs. Consequently, even if they juggle with new ideas, they're unlikely to ever become the progenitors of some new wave in gaming. At best, they are pet projects known by a few, dedicated gamers like yourself - and even then, not generally taken seriously (which enthusiast game par excellence can *you* name?)

 

Btw, Atlus and Square-Enix? Forgetting you mentioned Square-Enix for a moment (for you are the first one to accuse Square-Enix of being lacking in the graphics department), both are professional game companies with solid financing. They're not run by anything close to the part-time enthusiast you were referring to in pointing out the "inexpensive" nature of game development. Certainly, if you redefine enthusiast as the professional developer enthusiastic about his work, then my criticism would be irrelevant since they'd then be professionals, yes? Indie development does not refer to anything outside of the multi-million dollar corporations; insofar as level of professionalism is concerned, any profitable game company where its employees can survive off of wages alone can be conisdered a professional development house (but such companies, clearly, would have to pay hundreds of thousands in wage costs over the span of the years a game is in development). A straight up equivalence between profitable studios and the game development of enthusiasts whose sole noble purpose is to share ideas and learn about programming is frivolous, at best.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

(for you are the first one to accuse Square-Enix of being lacking in the graphics department)

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He didn't say they were lacking in the graphics department, only that they were behind what US developers have come up with in the same field. I have to agree with this; while several of their console games have used terrific graphical engines, some of which have pushed some console hardware close to its fullest, they have yet to develop a graphical engine which comes close to the capabilities of something like Source or Unreal's latest iterations.

[metadigital]

Now, along with having characters spout dialogue based on quests that kindasorta fit into a story, allow that these characters will report what goes on around them in ways that also kindasorta fit into the story, and maybe allow them to take independent actions that make sense based on personality traits, situation, and character sheet stuff.  If you want a slower intro to this kinda game, try including a new NPC type besides merchant, quest-giver, atmospheric, partymember, and enemy: the independent hero.

 

I guess you could see CRPG as advancing to the next stage after reflecting on what lessons MMOCRPG have granted: how to deal with multiple independent heroes without making the individual player feel as if they're losing potential victories and playing a shrinking game.  Just keep the independent hero away from story-specific quests and in situations where there is a massive dungeon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you advocating an AI-driven NPC hero running around solving (perhaps even competing on the same) missions, as the PC?

 

Interesting thought ... So the Chernobyl-type AI (or what they are attempting to pull-off, however successfully it eventually is): the emergent artificial life?

 

I would be happy to see, as I've said before, an extra processor to do all the donkey work, like the GPU does for rendering. The IPU ...

[Azarkon]

He didn't say they were lacking in the graphics department, only that they were behind what US developers have come up with in the same field. I have to agree with this; while several of their console games have used terrific graphical engines, some of which have pushed some console hardware close to its fullest, they have yet to develop a graphical engine which comes close to the capabilities of something like Source or Unreal's latest iterations.

 

Compare Square-Enix to US FPS companies, sure. Compare Square-Enix to US RPG makers and we have a different story altogether.

 

I couldn't believe that V:tM used the same base engine as Half-Life 2 the first time I "experienced" it (granted, Troika licensed an early version of the engine).

Edited February 14, 2006 by Azarkon