Mythic structure in RPGs/video games in general

[metadigital]

You can't tell me that EA, for example, has a cash flow problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not exactly a cash flow problem, but...

 

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/02/technology...onic_arts.reut/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...

EA -- which in December warned that results would be "well below" estimates without giving specific profit guidance -- said net income in its fiscal third quarter was $259 million, or 83 cents per share, down from net income of $375 million, or $1.18, in the year-earlier quarter ended Dec. 31.

 

Revenue declined 11 percent to $1.27 billion from $1.43 billion.

...

Gee, my condolences to them. This is a perfect example of the problem. Now I'm no communist-socialist-pinko-fabian-leftie-weirdo: I'm a big fan of, and all for, captialism. But when the medium controls the message, when the tail wags the dog, when the ULTIMATE GOAL becomes money and not quality product, then these guys should go join a bank where they can work with an end product that is money, and not screw around with my games! :angry:

 

Incidentally, blind Freddy's deaf guide dog could have predicted that Xbox 360-related earnings wouldn't meet estimates with the second division line-up of games.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'm just here to say that Brecht sucks. Friedrich D

[metadigital]

Calvin and Hobbes FTW!

[Kaftan Barlast]

This is just repeating hat you said, Josh, but as technology becomes more readily available and becomes simple enoug that real games can be made the indie-way, we will see drama that breaks the PG-13 mold. Or maybe all it takes is for games to become a media accepted enough to draw the attention of more mature crowds.

 

 

But now there are unspoken rules. In things like how its ok for a villain to kill the protagonists family but it is NOT ok for him to rape his girlfriend and then stab her to death with a broken beer bottle.

 

 

And anti-heroes remain just ordinary heroes with a slightly different etiquette and attitude. They always have the generic dark past but its never really despiccable things like pushing your pregnant mistress down a flight of stairs because she wouldnt get an abortion.

 

 

Then theres the more pihlosophical variety of evil but its a bit too late for me to dive into those issues.

[N'Al]

D

[metadigital]

Then theres the more pihlosophical variety of evil but its a bit too late for me to dive into those issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like the amoral expedience of the truly evil (in game worlds, obviously); the biggest advantage they have is the surprise they generate to their actions brought on through their complete lack of scruples in their dealings with their opponents.

 

Lawful Evil is a whole other ball o' wax, too. After all, I think I can make a pretty good argument for any system that places the good of the system over the good of the individuals, against their individual wills.

 

Then again, without a cogent self-decipline of altruism disseminated in societial systems, the necessary self-sacrificial motivations don't exist. So those same deficient societies need the additional Lawful Evil mechanisms to survive. And if the totalitarian societies are more efficient, if they flourish at the expense of kinder, gentler societies, what sort of evil is it to kill those innocents who lives prevent the deaths of those misanthropic (maltruistic ? :D) societies ...

 

Does the existence of some great evil, in fear of which many other peoples might put their personal evils aside, to join together in combat of the greater evil, and in whose wake might descendants of those peoples create a better societies ... does that constitute a necessary evil, or an abomination to be expunged?

[moreKOTORplz]

You can't tell me that EA, for example, has a cash flow problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not exactly a cash flow problem, but...

 

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/02/technology...onic_arts.reut/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...

EA -- which in December warned that results would be "well below" estimates without giving specific profit guidance -- said net income in its fiscal third quarter was $259 million, or 83 cents per share, down from net income of $375 million, or $1.18, in the year-earlier quarter ended Dec. 31.

 

Revenue declined 11 percent to $1.27 billion from $1.43 billion.

...

Gee, my condolences to them. This is a perfect example of the problem. Now I'm no communist-socialist-pinko-fabian-leftie-weirdo: I'm a big fan of, and all for, captialism. But when the medium controls the message, when the tail wags the dog, when the ULTIMATE GOAL becomes money and not quality product, then these guys should go join a bank where they can work with an end product that is money, and not screw around with my games! :angry:

 

Incidentally, blind Freddy's deaf guide dog could have predicted that Xbox 360-related earnings wouldn't meet estimates with the second division line-up of games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

you would think a company as powerful as that would understand that simple concept, its the backbone of capitlism that there be a competive balance. Its a trend in the industry as a whole, games are just becoming so bland and poorly constructed. its just ego, those dumb stupid kiddies who buy this crap will buy it no matter what we give them and if we feel like putting out crap this year so be it.

[Volourn]

"As was stated, fantasy arcutypes (and therefore, gods) are based pretty much entirely on alignment. Hearing 'Lawful good' can be all you need to know. But the Greek gods (as portraied in litriture) were 'more human than the humans'."

 

Read the Avatar and Maztica trilogies.

 

 

 

[Plano Skywalker]

I think you have to have the protagonist path that most people can identity with...the "yellow brick road" HAS to be there if it is going to sell, IMO, anyway.

 

The question, as I see it, is can you have a viable alternate path that is still related enough to the "main story" that it can be included in the same game?

 

I think you can but it is basically two different games with (at least some) different maps and (ideally) dialogue trees. I would like to see more of that.

 

What is an example? Let us say that, in Jade Empire, the alternate path was to play one of the lieutenants of Death's Hand. You are basically just trying to waylay the would-be hero. You might attack his family just to draw him out, etc.

 

Yeah, that could work but not as the only yellow brick road, only as a secondary yellow brick road.

 

Now, if we are talking about a pregen with a bad past, then it makes it a little easier to do but it also makes creates a tempation to just disguise the fact that there is only one path in the game.

[Junai]

One way to introduce or test a new trend/vogue, and at the same time play it safe, is to make sure that the game caters to different groups. The game could work on several levels. The player could turn it into a a) hack'n slash gush-fest if that's what he wants, a b) black and white good'n evil story, or c) delve deeper into the character and play it the way the devs had hoped for. A lot of books and movies are like that, entertaining for all audiences. If reviews and discussions prove that people like the new odd twist, whatever it is, then you know there is a market for it.

 

J.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The key was "unrelenting", Volourn. In American History X, Derek Vinyard is a hardcore racist, but he changes over the course of the film. It's easy to accept Derek because the story is about him becoming not racist. If Wulfgar remained a racist, I don't think people would accept him as a hero.

[Nick_i_am]

Likewise, the potential IS there, but who the crap is actually using it?

 

One thing I liked about Planescape was that it wasn't a story about 'the struggle between good or evil' or whatever, but rather, a completely personal story. There was no 'idiot trying to destroy the world' the only person in any 'danger' from the antagonist was the nameless one himself, and frankly, I liked this angle, which is why I found PST to have pretty much the most satisfying ending i've ever experianced.

[Moose]

So what you're basically saying is PNJ will be sci-fi. Glad we cleared that up.

[metadigital]

... With giant stompie robots.

[Moose]

Transformers RPG

[metadigital]

With a "chosen bot" who must save the universe from some unspeakable boredom that will engulf the audience in a few hours of game time ...

[Moose]

With multiple endings... hazzah! You thought the decepticons were the bad guys? Fool it was your own people!

[metadigital]

Who thought that your PC was deranged and trying to end the game universe and therefore their virtual lives ..!

[maia]

Another basic reason is that players are not passive observers, but active parties in game stories.  Even if the game isn

[Gabrielle]

Who thought that your PC was deranged and trying to end the game universe and therefore their virtual lives ..!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool, totally.

[metadigital]

Another basic reason is that players are not passive observers, but active parties in game stories.  Even if the game isn

[J.E. Sawyer]

But don't several highly successful action games feature rather villanious or at the very least highly ambiguous protagonists? GTAs and the Hitman series, to name a few, Max Payne duology etc. It seems that the problem you describe exists mainly in RPGs... and it isn't even clear that an RPG that would primarily cater to a villanious/ambiguous protagonist would be unsuccessful - IIRC it has never been tried.

The victims of GTA protagonists are either huge scumbags or faceless citizens. Anyone named is usually a pretty sucky person. The victims of Agent 47 are also almost always huge scumbags. Is Max Payne really a morally ambiguous character, or is he just angsty?

[metadigital]

I thought Max was morally un-ambiguous.

 

One of the most amoral acts he perpetrates is the deception of the police force that contains evil people. Unless you consider Dirty Harry to be lawful evil, when he executes evil doers instead of following due legal processes ...

[Cantousent]

The Irish Anti-Hero: The guy who kills his best friend in a bar-room brawl and weeps the next day, not out of contrition for his act, but because he misses his friend.

 

The successful Irish Anti-Hero: We weep because he does.

[metadigital]

Only if the killing was over an important philosophical question of right versus wrong! Like who's round it was.