Shooting for 30 hours?

[Volourn]

"The big deal is the end level. Volourn in my PnP d20 System campaigns on average my players level their caharacters once in every 10 to 12 hours real time. I expect my CRPG leveling to be half that time for those reasons you give."

 

I agree that 1 level per 5-6 hours in a CRPG would be my preference; but remember we're not the only gamers. Everyone should get a shareness in happiness here. That's why i find 1 level per 2 hours is acceptable. A more lopsided ratio like in KOTOR2, SOU, or FO1 is not cool.

[alanschu]

The big deal is the end level.  Volourn in my PnP d20 System campaigns on average my players level their caharacters once in every 10 to 12 hours real time.  I expect my CRPG leveling to be half that time for those reasons you give.

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Then you have poor expectations. On what basis do you expect levelling to be half of that time?

 

You can get waaaaaaaaay more done in 6 hours of CRPG time than you can ever hope for of 12 hours of PnP time.

[Gabrielle]

Well it seems the fans and the devs want games to level up quickly and not be strickly followers of the rules.

[alanschu]

Pool of Radiance (the original from like.. 1988 or so) sure as hell didn't! Max level for a fighter was 8 (I think) and for mages it was even lower.. 6 or so. That game still took probably 50 hours to complete, unless you were using a guidebook/walkthrough.

 

Best D&D game I've ever played.

 

Edit: Wrong year.

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Fair enough.

 

 

But who do you think the target audience was of that game?

[Judge Hades]

I am using those numbers based on my own experience with the games I run.

[Meshugger]

Well it seems the fans and the devs want games to level up quickly and not be strickly followers of the rules. 

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That's nothing new. Look at almost every RPG that's come out on the market the last 4 years

[Judge Hades]

Well it seems the fans and the devs want games to level up quickly and not be strickly followers of the rules. 

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Then they shouldn't even bother using the Dungeons and Dragons rules and name in the first place. They should just make an action game like Demonstone instead.

[alanschu]

I am using those numbers based on my own experience with the games I run.

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That's awfully vague, and pretty much just tells me you pulled the numbers from your behind.

 

Considering how slowly you must play through your CRPGs to make this analysis (unless you absolutely power through your PnP sessions) I'm surprised you complain at all about the length. NWN must have taken you at least 50 hours.

Edited January 12, 2006 by alanschu

[Volourn]

Heck, in pnp, we can go through an all day session and not level. But, onc eagain, pnp does not equal CRPG.

[alanschu]

Well it seems the fans and the devs want games to level up quickly and not be strickly followers of the rules. 

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Then they shouldn't even bother using the Dungeons and Dragons rules and name in the first place. They should just make an action game like Demonstone instead.

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Yeesh

 

People like the D&D environment, and in particular the setting. Blame the fact that it's been so prevalent in computer gaming, books, etc.

 

Clearly Wizards of the Coast have no problems with the rate of progression.

[Gabrielle]

Well it seems the fans and the devs want games to level up quickly and not be strickly followers of the rules. 

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Then they shouldn't even bother using the Dungeons and Dragons rules and name in the first place. They should just make an action game like Demonstone instead.

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Well known names sell like D&D. A computer game company's own setting isn't know therefore it won't sell as much as the well known named brand will.

[roshan]

The problem is that it probably wont last me anywhere close to 30 hours.

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Is that really the be-all and end-all in terms of what a good game is for you?

 

Seriously, it's silly to fret about it "only" being 30-40 hours before actually playing it.

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Read my reply to Arkan.

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It included something about referencing PS:T and FO, right?

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No.

[Judge Hades]

Then they should be using the name and rules proper then instead of butchering them like Bioware did with NWN 1 and KotOR, and what Obsidian did with KotOR 2.

[Judge Hades]

Clearly Wizards of the Coast have no problems with the rate of progression.

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Clearly Wizards of the Coast just want their money and don't give a crap about the integrity of the game.

[roshan]

How much more would it cost to add in another 15 hours or so? A lot of the game is tile based, the foliage is randomly generated, the engine and rules are already programmed.

The main story of NWN was criticised, rightly I think, for being too long. Bioware faced the same issue that's being discussed here - you design a game with 20 levels so you want to showcase them, but it doesn't feel right to be levelling up every half and hour. So they made a very long, rather dull campaign. I doubt it would take much for Obsidian to add another 15 hours to NWN2, but would they be good hours?

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NWN had a campaign focused on barrel smashing and extremely slow combat that was repetitive and took hours to finish.

 

I am talking about extra hours of roleplaying content thus bringing up nwn is irrelevant.

[alanschu]

Then they should be using the name and rules proper then instead of butchering them like Bioware did with NWN 1 and KotOR, and what Obsidian did with KotOR 2.

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Why would they do that when it seems the people that buy the games don't seem to want it?

 

Unless you're saying they'd sell more games if they stuck true to it.....which I would doubt.

 

 

 

You're too stuck on rules, and it hinders your ability to enjoy games. I feel sorry for you actually.

[Gabrielle]

It wouldn't sell. Fans these days want uber characters that level up quickly and gain god like weapons or feats or whatever. If the Devs want to follow the rules than they need to make a game that is longer and intersting and worth the slow journey to get there. BG1 I saw was mentioned and that is a prime example. You leveled slowly but during your journey you went on may side quests and met exciting people and places.

 

The games created today are sadly throw aways. You play it once or twice to completion and you're done.

[alanschu]

NWN had a campaign focused on barrel smashing and extremely slow combat that was repetitive and took hours to finish.

 

I am talking about extra hours of roleplaying content thus bringing up nwn is irrelevant.

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I'm not sure if you read my reply to this, but I doubt that an extra 15 hours of complex, intricate, roleplaying content (please define this term for me too) would take antyhing less than months of additional programming time. Regardless of the state of the engine.

[Volourn]

"Then they should be using the name and rules proper then instead of butchering them like Bioware did with NWN 1"

 

Huh? BIO did great with the 3E rules. Not an exact implementation; but hit all the main notes. The game even plays almost like a turn base game (even though it isn't).

 

 

"NWN had a campaign focused on barrel smashing and extremely slow combat that was repetitive and took hours to finish."

 

Not true, and for someone whose played the game mutliple times you should know that.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Volourn

[roshan]

How much more would it cost to add in another 15 hours or so? A lot of the game is tile based, the foliage is randomly generated, the engine and rules are already programmed.

 

All that needs to be done is for more roleplaying content to be created, which shouldnt be a problem unless the designers are specifically catering to the attention disorder crowd OR they do not have the talent or ability to create good content.

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The good content that you are demanding takes tons of time. I would suspect that adding an additional 15 hours of well thought out "roleplaying content" (whatever the hell that entails) would seriously add months to the game development time, if not more. I am quite confident you weren't thinking about 15 hours of crap gameplay, which could be done relatively quickly.

 

The Engine and rules being programmed already won't affect things as much as you may like, because the game is designed (i.e. the story and all that stuff) concurrently with the engine. All it means is that the graphics programmers can either add more stuff, or have nothing to do on this project and move on.

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Yes but the amount of graphics needed will not increase in a linear fashion. Lets say an area needs 15 different barrels to make it look good. When they create a new area, they can use 5 of the old barrels and add in another 5 new ones and make something that looks different enough, they dont need to create 15 whole new barrels.

 

You are also ignoring many things. The trees are randomly generated using technology from outside, the toolset used to make new areas is already created, the engine is already programmed, the multiplayer already worked out. Thus designing new areas will not increase all these costs so the costs will not increase linearly. All they need is more designers and some more artists.

 

More content isnt being created because it costs more, content isnt being created because it simply isnt a priority.

[roshan]

NWN had a campaign focused on barrel smashing and extremely slow combat that was repetitive and took hours to finish.

 

I am talking about extra hours of roleplaying content thus bringing up nwn is irrelevant.

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I'm not sure if you read my reply to this, but I doubt that an extra 15 hours of complex, intricate, roleplaying content (please define this term for me too) would take antyhing less than months of additional programming time. Regardless of the state of the engine.

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What the hell does writing dialogue have to do with programming??? Especially when it is done through a toolset?

[Judge Hades]

You're too stuck on rules, and it hinders your ability to enjoy games.  I feel sorry for you actually.

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No, but I am stuck on a balance between rules mechanics and story design. Both need to compliment each other in a balance in order to make a great CRPG. Saying damn the rules, you have an action game and not a CRPG.

[alanschu]

Yes but the amount of graphics needed will not increase in a linear fashion. Lets say an area needs 15 different barrels to make it look good. When they create a new area, they can use 5 of the old barrels and add in another 5 new ones and make something that looks different enough, they dont need to create 15 whole new barrels.

 

Not sure what that has to do with what I said. I was talking about specifically increasing the length of the game by 15 hours merely by adding "RP" content...which you still haven't defined.

 

You are also ignoring many things. The trees are randomly generated using technology from outside, the toolset used to make new areas is already created, the engine is already programmed, the multiplayer already worked out. Thus designing new areas will not increase all these costs so the costs will not increase linearly. All they need is more designers and some more artists.

 

I'm not ignoring anything...you're just misreading what you said. I know that all they need is more designer hours. You make it sound like hiring designers and artists is a cheap thing to do though.

 

More content isnt being created because it costs more, content isnt being created because it simply isnt a priority.

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All in all, I find your entire post spoken from an understandably naive perspective. Content, in all of its forms, costs money. The cost of creating content today, in all of it's forms, has been increasing (with the cost of an individual sale being relatively static). I was never talking about creating new graphics and whatnot.

[Gabrielle]

You're too stuck on rules, and it hinders your ability to enjoy games.  I feel sorry for you actually.

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No, but I am stuck on a balance between rules mechanics and story design. Both need to compliment each other in a balance in order to make a great CRPG. Saying damn the rules, you have an action game and not a CRPG.

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You're too busy looking at each tree and not enjoying the whole forest, to put it in perspective.

[Haitoku]

You're too stuck on rules, and it hinders your ability to enjoy games.  I feel sorry for you actually.

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No, but I am stuck on a balance between rules mechanics and story design. Both need to compliment each other in a balance in order to make a great CRPG. Saying damn the rules, you have an action game and not a CRPG.

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Your logic is still stupid. Your not going to like the game just because you can hit level 20 in 30mins.