Believe

[moreKOTORplz]

Hmm...I tend to think that some people look at religion as another opportunity to elevate themselves in society or in any organization. Or rather those people use religious organizations as an external impetus rather than a internal one.

 

Sure they might not admit it to themselves or even realize it, but wherever people gather connections are made, deals are struck and hierarchies are formed. People can flaunt their power, exercise their influence or brag about whatever new doodad they have...all the while congratulating themselves on their moral superiority in their religious beliefs.

 

Of course, I also think that the majority of people in religious organizations are there because of their faith and the will to do good(at least in their eyes). The problem is that people with more earthly objectives end up with all the power and influence through politics, rumors, the forming of factions and whatnot.

 

But wait...this wasn't what the thread is about.

 

Yes, well on faith, I think people should believe in themselves more rather than what a certain religion tells you to believe. But only if it were that simple huh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

you don't need to be part of a religion to believe in god, but helping others and joining to together is what god wants. accepting others as you have come to accept yourself is what gods wants which is the true meaning to why in god and religion are tied (unity). its just dam people in there flawed nature distroting his plan. i say this because god and religion need to be kept apart, its not god's fault that his free willed monsters screw up his true intentions.

[moreKOTORplz]

moreKOTORplz, thats your legitimate perspective.

 

I'd like to think of myself as a god, or aspiring ubermensch who is able to change, change without the need of faith in one so blind to me. Why do we always look outward for answers when if we dig deep deep inside of ourselves we have the answers, the meanings we need. When we study ourselves and see the meaning behind what causes our prejudices, and fears why fear and be prejudice anymore? For most this isn't possible, i am certainly not there yet, but i aspire to none the less.

 

Your God is only one place to get answers out of many, and so is mine. We all took some kind of leap in faith, and neither of us are going to budge from our beliefs. So what now?

 

You can call me flawed, but i'd prefer you call me WITHTEETH  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

thats the thing though white its introspective, when you speak to god its inside you not outside. and it doesn't need to be in a chruch. we do it all the time when we just sit in a chair and listen to music, we think, we ask ourselves questions, and search for answers. when you search with clarity is when you find true answers. but i understand your view, i personally don't care how people are happy as long as they are happy, and i know that only comes from within. my belief is that my happiness is inside me but comes from somewhere greater than myself. besides i don't fool all my religions rules so i can't be considered authentic enough to be an evangelist

[WITHTEETH]

Ok moreKOTORplz, i disagree with you personally, I think we can change our old habits, i do not believe we are victoms of our own devices unless we let it be so, we lay in the bed we make. I think that believing yourself as a device can be hazardous to your health, that the belief itself is dangerous. the statement alone might determine you to lack capability to change in itself. There are ways to rethink your world around you so that everything does not always seem horrible.

 

Have you not found ways to deal with fear, laziness and guilt?

 

I find it strikely odd you mention entropy, it reminds me of absurdism: meaning the lack of belief or the belief no meaning.

 

Well if life has no meaning and the world is absurd then what? Well we create the meanins, so are you going to stay your conscious life making youself miserable or happy? You might as well stay happy right?

Edited December 29, 2005 by WITHTEETH

[Atreides]

God, if he exists, save my soul, if it exists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I started a poll a while back aimed towards people who don't believe in the existance of souls. Basically the question was since it doesn't exist to you and it's worthless, would you sell it to a person that approached you and offered you $500 for it, contract at the ready and all.

 

To be fair most people stuck to their guns and said yes but there were a few that wanted to know if the guy knew something that they didn't about the value before signing up.

 

As for the world of darkness, perhaps people are getting more distant. Human compassion may be breaking down to the point that people can get mugged on subway carriages while other people avert their eyes away from the incident just a few feet away.

 

On the other hand, there is great potential for good to happen. Perhaps it is in darkness that light can shine brightly.

[moreKOTORplz]

Ok moreKOTORplz, i disagree with you personally, I think we can change our old habits, i do not believe we are victoms of our own devices unless we let it be so, we lay in the bed we make. I think that believing yourself as a device can be hazardous to your health, that the belief itself is dangerous. the statement alone might determine you to lack capability to change in itself. There are ways to rethink your world around you so that everything does not always seem horrible.

 

Have you not found ways to deal with fear, laziness and guilt?

 

I find it strikely odd you mention entropy, it reminds me of absurdism: meaning the lack of belief or the belief no meaning.

 

Well if life has no meaning and the world is absurd then what? Well we create the meanins, so are you going to stay your conscious life making youself miserable or happy? You might as well stay happy right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

l like i said ends to a means, by the way i mean't entropy as in the affinity for disorder wasn't sure if thats what you were getting from that. human beings are absurd :D , and i believe we can over come our habits but that doesn't mean we can get rid of them same way we can't get rid of a virus but we can stop it. by the way i am happy i thought that was clear i just have a synical view of human nature as i think we all do. i find happiness through acceptance, this allows me to make mistakes (effort mistakes not screw up mistakes) but keep living instead of regreting.

[WITHTEETH]

OK :D

 

About entropy, it just reminds ME of absurdism because entropy is chaos, or disorder, and if everything is disordered, then everything is meaningless, until we come along and create our own meanings to everything we can get near.

Well its late, Goodnight! :ph34r:

[moreKOTORplz]

only meaningless to bring order to chaos, the structure of life is meaningless you mean? :D this is where faith comes in :D perfectly laid plans never work, just got to keep plugin away as tiger woods would say ewww a rhyme

[Gabrielle]

the gods withered and died

when their creations rejected them in kind.

the gates of hades opened wide

swallowing the divine inside

as the great ones died and fell

leaving us all on earthly hell

to suffer pain and we kill

to satisfy our selfish will

children of the damned we become

this hell on earth never to be undone

[Judge Hades]

only meaningless to bring order to chaos, the structure of life is meaningless you mean?  :D this is where faith comes in  :D perfectly laid plans never work, just got to keep plugin away as tiger woods would say ewww a rhyme

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't have faith because in my life I have found out that faith and hope are a waste of time. You can have faith and hope all you want but it won't change a thing. Things will happen as they are supposed to happen regardless if you have belief, faith, hope, or any of the other useless crap religion tries to give you.

Edited December 29, 2005 by Judge Hades

[Rosbjerg]

the funny thing (in my experiance) is that people tend to get rather nihilistic as they gain more knowledge about the world .. and when they feel the emptiness (and we all fear true emptiness) they seek backwards to ignorance for comfort.. it seems as if we as a species can't cope with enlighment without ignorance..

[Judge Hades]

Its a twin edged blade that cuts deeply in the human psyche, then someone gives it a twist.

[WITHTEETH]

the funny thing (in my experiance) is that people tend to get rather nihilistic as they gain more knowledge about the world .. and when they feel the emptiness (and we all fear true emptiness) they seek backwards to ignorance for comfort.. it seems as if we as a species can't cope with enlighment without ignorance..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very intresting... Are you getting into ignoring that fact that love is just a chemical called serotonin and just enjoying the beauty of it?

Can your argument be related to the "beauty or truth" debate?

 

As for going backwards towards ignorance, maybe they just dont want to leave their comfort zone just yet, if ever. Sometimes its a matter of one finding the correct path for them that will help them out of their caves.

 

Most people enjoy ignorance, i do, i hate looking at my shoes and realizing that some poor kid in ethiopia had to make them. I'm sure smokers hate to read the surgeon general warning that says ciggs cause cancer. I guess this goes back to if your going to be conscious your whole life you might as well be happy. Its a tough battle to learn everything about oneself inorder to change, and the road to enlightenment cannot be shown to a person, that person has to discover it by themselve.

 

I think its possible to cope with enlightenment, its just a matter of changing ones attitiude at how he/she looks at it.

 

does that sound right?

[Dark Moth]

We shouldn't have to trade enlightenment for happiness. I look around in this world and I see all the death, misery, and pain out there. But what gives me hope and keeps me going is knowing that there is still good out there. Hope, as naive as it may sound, still exists everwhere. We as human beings can't sit around idly griping about how bad the world is. We have to take things into our own hands to make this world a better place. And as long as believe the world is beyond change, it will be that way. My viewpoint is that we must have knowledge about the world. Only when we know that pain and misery exists will we be able to put a stop to it. And as human beings, it is our duty to help when we can. That is what my faith has taught me.

[Judge Hades]

It is our instinct to bring pain to one another. One can't fight instinct. We may have reason but we are still beasts.

Edited December 29, 2005 by Judge Hades

[Dark Moth]

It is our instinct to bring pain to one another.  One can't fight instinct.  We may have reason but we are still beasts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of course one can fight instinct. That is what makes us human. If you have that attitude, you'll be condemned to be a beast your whole life.

[Judge Hades]

You can't fight instinct. Its what you are. Your core being. It is millions of years of honed evolution. All you can do is be aware of it but in the end it is what makes you what you are.

[Gabrielle]

The gods are dead.

[Judge Hades]

Nah, God just like to hide in your closet and jump out at you when you are least expecting it. Damn, bastard.

[Child of Flame]

God's an insufferable bastard.

[Baley]

The elementary veracity of all existence is that sexual intercourse is and will forever be far more puissant than any god of man or beast.

[Rosbjerg]

the funny thing (in my experiance) is that people tend to get rather nihilistic as they gain more knowledge about the world .. and when they feel the emptiness (and we all fear true emptiness) they seek backwards to ignorance for comfort.. it seems as if we as a species can't cope with enlighment without ignorance..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very intresting... Are you getting into ignoring that fact that love is just a chemical called serotonin and just enjoying the beauty of it?

Can your argument be related to the "beauty or truth" debate?

 

As for going backwards towards ignorance, maybe they just dont want to leave their comfort zone just yet, if ever. Sometimes its a matter of one finding the correct path for them that will help them out of their caves.

 

Most people enjoy ignorance, i do, i hate looking at my shoes and realizing that some poor kid in ethiopia had to make them. I'm sure smokers hate to read the surgeon general warning that says ciggs cause cancer. I guess this goes back to if your going to be conscious your whole life you might as well be happy. Its a tough battle to learn everything about oneself inorder to change, and the road to enlightenment cannot be shown to a person, that person has to discover it by themselve.

 

I think its possible to cope with enlightenment, its just a matter of changing ones attitiude at how he/she looks at it.

 

does that sound right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Are you getting into ignoring that fact that love is just a chemical called serotonin and just enjoying the beauty of it?"

kind of, but my argument is that when people gain knowledge and insight (in a western world way = logic) they realize that the world is far colder and harsher than they (in their naive minds of before) had believed.. they see the systems this reality operates under and feels a sense of loss... then they believe love is just a chemical reaction, free will is just an illusion caused by the fact that we can't see and understand everything.. that's when they go backwards, that's when they seek a simpler and (in their minds) better way of thinking and living.. everyone does this .. we enjoy nature because it's constant - opposed to our ever frantic and changing lives! we enjoy seeing the past in a romantic light - family values etc.

they were more ignorant, and they were more happy (at least we (want to) believe they were)..

 

my argument is that true enlightment is not just logic .. seeing things not as they really are .. because that's impossible, it's seeing things (and understanding them) as we really do.. understanding that reality is subjective and coming to terms with that - and then trying to put yourself in others situations, seeing their reality through them.. I believe enlighment comes, not with knowledge, but with experiance and a wanting, a seeking, to understand yourself and those around you.. on the most basic level..

 

but that's means enlightment is an elusive thing, not a level to reach and stay at .. but a level to seek and never truely reach...

[WITHTEETH]

Free will just an illusion? I'd beg to defer personally. I can see how its possible to believe theres no such thing as free will, but to the enlightened there is room for free will still probably. The ignorant let people and situations control the them. To an enlightened one he/she is his own wave, they don't have to let people show them direction, just look at Napolean and Ceasar, the world was theres. Natural Law, Nurture, feelings, situations ect..., all have an effect on us, but to an enlightened one who knows him/herself, they can choose which one determines his present status, thus free will. If a man is stripped of everything, he still has the choice to determine his own attitude no matter what situation he is in. You can be miserable at work, or create a sense of humor. This is just a hypothesis i've been thinking about lately.

but that's means enlightment is an elusive thing, not a level to reach and stay at .. but a level to seek and never truely reach...

An enlightened one, or Gods even UberMensch as Nietzche likes to call them are around, i think each person just needs to finds his or her own version of enlightenment, thats the beauty of it, it can be anything really, and i agree it will always change because we are never intellectually satisfiede(this sounds right).

 

I'm feeling your statement on how reality is subjective, i completely agree. Some may think that is bad, It depends on how you look at it once again. I think subjectivity gives us a chance to all get along, after all, we are just taking guesses at everything we know. Some cling to there guesses as if they were not, they just don't have the recognition yet, if ever.

 

As for seeing things colder then they really are because reality is meaningless- It can be if one wants to think of it that way. Existentialism dives straight into this problem. Frankl says to add meaning to it, and it ends the suffering. Nietzche says we should enrich every part of our life with some kind of art. Sartre says make an example out of yourself. Doestyevki would call your statement mad and go on a rant for 5 pages . Rightfully so i like Doestyevki, he thinkgs its ludicrous to demean things to little particles. The statement that love is just a chemical, that there is no will. We are not a cog in the machine! .... even if so, why believe it, because its hurtful to do so isn't it?

 

they were more ignorant, and they were more happy (at least we (want to) believe they were)..

The stronger the mind the more places one can visit in it. If an ignorant person is miserable, hes not going to be able to get himself out of that rut. If an enlightened one is miserable, he can soon pick himself up just by reaching into his imagination. Either preoccupying his mind with other thoughts, creating a greater meaning to why he is doing this, or even having the strength to quit and search for something new.

[Fionavar]

Thread Pruned: Free will means that one is responsible for the choices in how one posts. There is the right way and then there is the prune way ... pruning means I move, which means I have free will to do more than prune next time ... subtle, eh?

 

FLoSD.ObE

[Gabrielle]

Fio scared everyone away.

[Lucius]

Fio... name sounds like a puppy.