The Religion Thread

[Judge Hades]

If God is always correct and his word is never ever ever wrong why the hell do we have 3 major religions who are at odds with each other, and hundreds of subsects that are even moreso.

 

Sorry, but God is wrong and incompetent. I don't restrict my view of God from Scripture. Scripture isn't the real world. I take a good long look at scripture from all three religions he started and the actions and history of his followers.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Hades_One

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

If god is perfect explain evolution.

[Commissar]

Why not send everybody straight to heaven regardless? Why bother with life, why not just plop everyone down behind the pearly gates?

[Judge Hades]

God isn't perfect. He likes to experiment and on occasionally get drunk. How else would you explain the duckbilled platypus?

[Blank]

i believe i obeyed God in offering the truth to others as i believe He has presented it to me. I leave it up to you guys (and i leave it up to God) if you will be changed by it or not.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Why not send everybody straight to heaven regardless?  Why bother with life, why not just plop everyone down behind the pearly gates?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you were an all powerful super being would you want a bunch of people making a mess on your carpets ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

i believe i obeyed God in offering the truth to others as i believe He has presented it to me. I leave it up to you guys (and i leave it up to God) if you will be changed by it or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Look on the bright side, you may grow out of it.

 

But there is no evidence at all for gods "perfection"

 

In fact there is scads of evidence that would indicate the opposite even if you believed in god.

Edited December 8, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Judge Hades]

i believe i obeyed God in offering the truth to others as i believe He has presented it to me. I leave it up to you guys (and i leave it up to God) if you will be changed by it or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One man's truth is another man's lies, and vice versa.

[Blank]

Why not send everybody straight to heaven regardless?  Why bother with life, why not just plop everyone down behind the pearly gates?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For that matter why bother with creation at all? i believe God made everything to be glorified. you, me, him, her, all of our purposes are to glorify Him. He deserves to be glorified too. He has all the credentials: fairness, omnipotence, omniscience, grace, mercy, etc. forever all that is good. (today's Bible reading: Psalm 8... lol jk, but i am just mentioning that Psalm 8 basically says that the universe

glorifies God)

 

I won't claim to know why God does everything He does. I know some things about God but certainly not all.

 

Personally, it makes sense. Wouldn't it mean more to you if you had a wife that actually loved you and chose to love you and therefore assisted you, as opposed to a wife that was programmed to obey you and therefore assisted you?

[Commissar]

For that matter why bother with creation at all? i believe God made everything to be glorified. you, me, him, her, all of our purposes are to glorify Him. He deserves to be glorified too. He has all the credentials: fairness, omnipotence, omniscience, grace, mercy, etc. forever all that is good. (today's Bible reading: Psalm 8... lol jk, but i am just mentioning that Psalm 8 basically says that the universe

glorifies God)

 

I won't claim to know why God does everything He does. I know some things about God but certainly not all.

 

Personally, it makes sense. Wouldn't it mean more to you if you had a wife that actually loved you and chose to love you and therefore assisted you, as opposed to a wife that was programmed to obey you and therefore assisted you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a bad analogy. I'll give you a better one:

 

I create my wife, but I don't create her to automatically love me. I do, however, threaten her with the beating of a lifetime if she doesn't love me. Since the result is essentially the same, why didn't I just create her to love me in the first place?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

For that matter why bother with creation at all? i believe God made everything to be glorified. you, me, him, her, all of our purposes are to glorify Him. He deserves to be glorified too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Great so we were created as a slave race to glorify some super being. Sounds like god has major self esteem issues to me.

 

Does he really ? Why ?

 

Do you attribute weather to god ? Do you think he should be glorified for murdering 120,000 + people last dec 26th ? And if you dont attribute weather to god, then he cannot by definition be all powerful.

Edited December 8, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Reveilled]

He created "correctness" and "correctness" is what defines Him. If you have a different definition of "correct" then i believe it is wrong (i.e. i believe God's definition is right since everything He does defines what "right" is, lol. sin/incorrectness is all the things that that are apart from Him.)

 

So, you agree then that correctness has nothing to do with God's power? If you could kick his ass, he'd still be correct since he created correctness, right? But what if he didn't create correctness? What if he's lying about it?

 

That's why He doesn't change His policies... they were right evermore to begin with. However, in expressing your grievances it makes it easier to cope with His commands; and you need to understand that He hears what you are saying to Him and He cares. By telling Him these things you are entrusting Him with your feelings and i believe only good can come from entrusting God with things.

 

But I don't intend to follow God's commands, because I do not agree that he has any right to issue them to me. And I don't think good will come from entrusting things to god, but I get the feeling that if god as you see him exists, I won't get the option not to.

 

Jesus can't lie! It is not in His character to do so, therefore He won't!

See below \/

 

James 1:17

"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, he never changes or casts shifting shadows."

 

Not to be obvious, but the Bible would say that, wouldn't it? What assurances are there that the Bible is correct in this regard? If Jesus or God were liars, we'd expect that books written to praise how great they were would claim they never lie, so that proves nothing.

 

One thing you might try is asking respectable christians you know about their personal experiences for why they trust God. You can always look at the Bible and see that God never breaks a promise. Democracy is not necessarily "Biblical", it is just a form of government that you deem fair. Say there was a fair ruler, that was always fair, then wouldn't that be the best government? The ruler would know what "fair" was and nobody could change the "fairness" of his choices. If somebody came along and had a different idea that was not fair, he wouldn't accept that unfair idea.

 

No, that's not the best government. In fact, that's a pretty bloody awful government. There are no political freedoms. Unless the rulers can be chosen, it is utterly impossible to have a fair government, as political freedom and the right to choose your rulers is the absolute first requirement for a fair government. Give me liberty or give me death, and all that.

 

Well God is always fair like that, and He doesn't tyrannously control your life, but He offers the right choices to you, regardless of the fact that you know it is right or not. I point you to the passage in the Bible that i told you was your favourite: Romans 9.

 

Oh, he might not tyrannously control my life, but he'll control my afterlife, won't he?

 

If the god you believe in is not omniscient, then i wouldn't trust him either, that would be very stupid. like blindly following a random king that did whatever he wanted and didn't know that much. God is different, since He knows better than you do about EVERYTHING and He consistently does whatever He wants as long as it is "right", since that is all He does.

 

No, see, I trust my god, just as I'd trust my friends or my family. Since she doesn't claim to be omni-anything, I have no reason to believe she is lying to me, and thus, I can trust that the guidance she gives me is honest and heartfelt. Whereas, when a deity claims to be all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe it. Thus, I will never trust any advice it gives me, on the basis that it could be lying.

 

Again it comes back to the trust and faith thing. How can you know for sure that God is totally correct about everything? like i said before. examine followers of His Word that are actually obeying Him and see. I also want to ask you to examine your own heart and see what you feel. How can you deny God? agh, i give up for now, i mean, if we can't agree on that then it is kinda pointless for me to keep rambling on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, but I don't deny god. It is you that denies god, by believing in your deity.

 

And I have examined many religions in my time, I've looked at the world around me, and I've looked into my heart too. And I'm led to the conclusion that if there's anything god doesn't want, it is obedience. She hopes that in time you will understand the universe, and in the meantime will enjoy its wonders. It's not about obedience, it's about free spirit. I would urge you to stop looking into your heart and start consulting your pineal gland instead.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Reveilled

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Better.

 

God loves atheist more, because we don't bother him.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats how I feel when playing G&E I just want to be left alone to play with my creature not have an in box full of prayer requests.

[Dark Moth]

So, you agree then that correctness has nothing to do with God's power?  If you could kick his ass, he'd still be correct since he created correctness, right?  But what if he didn't create correctness?  What if he's lying about it?

Why do you assume he is lying about it? Besides, if you believe in God (at least the Christian God), you accept he was here before humanity. We are like children in that manner. If you believe that there is a being with vastly superior intelligence and consciousness, why would you assume you would automatically know better than it?

 

But I don't intend to follow God's commands, because I do not agree that he has any right to issue them to me.  And I don't think good will come from entrusting things to god, but I get the feeling that if god as you see him exists, I won't get the option not to.

Why do you believe he/she/it doesn't have the right? Who called you into existance? Does a toddler have a right to disobey his parents? For that matter, would a parent not have any right to issue commands to his/her child?

 

Not to be obvious, but the Bible would say that, wouldn't it?  What assurances are there that the Bible is correct in this regard?  If Jesus or God were liars, we'd expect that books written to praise how great they were would claim they never lie, so that proves nothing.

Yes, it would. And once again, you have to look at this from the Christian perspective, which assumes the Bible is divinely inspired. But you see, that's where you have to take the leap of faith. The Bible teaches God's inability to lie. So you either have to accept the fact the Bible is lying, God is lying, the people who wrote it are lying (and subsequently a lot died for a lie), and all of Christianity is a sham, which many here tend to think.

 

No, that's not the best government.  In fact, that's a pretty bloody awful government.  There are no political freedoms.  Unless the rulers can be chosen, it is utterly impossible to have a fair government, as political freedom and the right to choose your rulers is the absolute first requirement for a fair government.  Give me liberty or give me death, and all that.

Okay, I hate monarchies, so I'll give you this one. But to stress a point: God does not control your life. You do. That's one thing Hades tends to overlook. He likes to blame God, not humanity.

 

Oh, he might not tyrannously control my life, but he'll control my afterlife, won't he?

What makes you think he'll be a tyrant? In heaven, supposedly God would not really have to control us, cause there'd be no reason for him too. It'd be a paradise, where we live as humanity should.

 

No, see, I trust my god, just as I'd trust my friends or my family.  Since she doesn't claim to be omni-anything, I have no reason to believe she is lying to me, and thus, I can trust that the guidance she gives me is honest and heartfelt.  Whereas, when a deity claims to be all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe it.  Thus, I will never trust any advice it gives me, on the basis that it could be lying.

 

Do you realize what you said is a quagmire? If God is not omniscient, then he/she might be wrong. (also, I notice you refer to God as a she. Interesting.) And if she is wrong, then she could be giving you wrong guidance, then you yourself would be wrong. Likewise, you couldn't really trust your God, could you? You wouldn't even be able to trust the advice she gives you.

 

Ah, but I don't deny god.  It is you that denies god, by believing in your deity.

 

And I have examined many religions in my time, I've looked at the world around me, and I've looked into my heart too.  And I'm led to the conclusion that if there's anything god doesn't want, it is obedience.  She hopes that in time you will understand the universe, and in the meantime will enjoy its wonders.  It's not about obedience, it's about free spirit.  I would urge you to stop looking into your heart and start consulting your pineal gland instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another quagmire. Of course you deny God by not believing in him/her/it. If God were capable, and you didn't believe in it, then you would of course be denying it. And remember Peter's denial of Jesus if you want to see what I'm driving at.

 

BTW, I believe God also wants more than blind obedience. There is ample evidence in the Bible that God wants understanding from us, too. A person with blind, unjustified faith would be useless to it. That's not true faith, and that wouldn't benefit God in any way. And as you said, I too believe God wants us to enjoy life as well. For one thing, I believe a lot of God's commands were not merely for obedience, but advice on how we should live to survive. The 10 Commandments contain a lot of teachings we as humans agree with anyway, such as not killing, lying, coveting, etc. You of course could say we don't need God to tell us that, but if you look at human history, you can tell that there countless events that prove many humans don't always abide by those. Theoretically, if there was nobody saying that killing was wrong, then there'd be no reason not to kill, right? Besides, is it too much to ask that we give a little to God in return, such as thanking it and trying to live as it advises? I don't think so.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Why do you believe he/she/it doesn't have the right?  Who called you into existance?  Does a toddler have a right to disobey his parents?  For that matter, would a parent not have any right to issue commands to his/her child? 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A child might not but an adult does dont they ?

 

That would Aethiests the adults I guess.

 

While we are at it. Does a parent have a right to abuse and threaten their child ?

Edited December 9, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Dark Moth]

Why do you believe he/she/it doesn't have the right?  Who called you into existance?  Does a toddler have a right to disobey his parents?  For that matter, would a parent not have any right to issue commands to his/her child? 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A child might not but an adult does dont they ?

 

That would Aethiests the adults I guess.

 

While we are at it. Does a parent have a right to abuse and threaten their child ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not sure what you mean in your first part, but...

 

No, of course not. Do you believe God abuses you? Has it harmed you in any way?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'm not sure what you mean in your first part, but...

 

No, of course not.  Do you believe God abuses you?  Has it harmed you in any way?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What I mean is that when a child matures it finds it's own path and parents are generally proud of this. The anology of a christian in this context would be someone who lives in their parents basement and bothers them every time they have a problem.

 

You believe got is all powerful ? Does he control the weather ?

 

Ask those 120,000 Tsunami victims.

[Dark Moth]

I'm not sure what you mean in your first part, but...

 

No, of course not.  Do you believe God abuses you?  Has it harmed you in any way?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What I mean is that when a child matures it finds it's own path and parents are generally proud of this. The anology of a christian in this context would be someone who lives in their parents basement and bothers them every time they have a problem.

 

You believe got is all powerful ? Does he control the weather ?

 

Ask those 120,000 Tsunami victims.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First of all, it's not really like that. And even a parent would want to offer advice and guidance to a child who is lost or suffering.

 

Maybe he can, but chooses not too. Every think about that? And I know you'd say "Well, why didn't he stop the tsunami?" First, if God controlled the weather, how would we know he wasn't controlling us? Secondly, if we could say he was controlling the weather, what would stop people from coming out and accusing God of being partial for giving some people bad weather and others good weather. God, I'm sure, was deeply saddened by the Tsunami. But at the same time, he can't treat the earth and humanity as his pawns.

Edited December 9, 2005 by Mothman

[Reveilled]

Why do you assume he is lying about it?  Besides, if you believe in God (at least the Christian God), you accept he was here before humanity.  We are like children in that manner.  If you believe that there is a being with vastly superior intelligence and consciousness, why would you assume you would automatically know better than it? 

 

Why would you assume that a being who was here before humanity has a vastly superior intelligence and conciousness?

 

Why do you believe he/she/it doesn't have the right?  Who called you into existance?  Does a toddler have a right to disobey his parents?  For that matter, would a parent not have any right to issue commands to his/her child? 

 

Why do you assume, though, that god is to mankind is as parent is to toddler? If we are like toddlers to god, then wouldn't god's continuing allowance of the existence of evil, as well as natural disasters and eternal torture in hell if we disobey constitute child abuse? If we're like children, then looking after us and preventing us from getting into trouble is the responsibility that goes along with the right to tell a child what to do. If preventing evil and dealing with the consequences of free will are our responsibility, then only we have a right to tell us what to do.

 

All that aside, why would god calling us into existence give him the right to tell us what to do in the first place?

 

Yes, it would.  And once again, you have to look at this from the Christian perspective, which assumes the Bible is divinely inspired.  But you see, that's where you have to take the leap of faith.  The Bible teaches God's inability to lie.  So you either have to accept the fact the Bible is lying, God is lying, the people who wrote it are lying (and subsequently a lot died for a lie), and all of Christianity is a sham, which many here tend to think. 

 

Well, I'm raising the questions that shaped my own beliefs here from the point of view of a non-christian theist. I found my road to religion a long and hard one, and I often find myself wondering if those who seem to find that their religion comes so easily to them and with such conviction have really considered how much faith is involved. I'm happy, as long as people are aware of it, and are willing to question it regularly to make sure that it is still there (I've known quite a few people who rather than admit they had lost their faith simply closed their minds and pretended still to follow it rather than examine why).

 

What makes you think he'll be a tyrant?  In heaven, supposedly God would not really have to control us, cause there'd be no reason for him too.  It'd be a paradise, where we live as humanity should. 

 

But if my conception of how humanity should live differs from God's, then what will happen to me? Will I get to decide what to do with my eternal non-material existence, or will god decide my place for me?

 

Do you realize what you said is a quagmire?  If God is not omniscient, then he/she might be wrong.  (also, I notice you refer to God as a she.  Interesting.)  And if she is wrong, then she could be giving you wrong guidance, then you yourself would be wrong.  Likewise, you couldn't really trust your God, could you?  You wouldn't even be able to trust the advice she gives you. 

 

It's not really a quagmire, any more than trusing the advice of family or friends is. Her guidance might not always lead to the best outcome, but I trust her to give the advice that she feels is best for me. I don't trust her advice to be correct, I trust it to be honest.

 

Another quagmire.  Of course you deny God by not believing in him/her/it.  If God were capable, and you didn't believe in it, then you would of course be denying it.  And remember Peter's denial of Jesus if you want to see what I'm driving at.

 

I do, but will politely insist that I believe in god and you don't, because my god exists.

 

BTW, I believe God also wants more than blind obedience.  There is ample evidence in the Bible that God wants understanding from us, too.  A person with blind, unjustified faith would be useless to it.  That's not true faith, and that wouldn't benefit God in any way.  And as you said, I too believe God wants us to enjoy life as well.  For one thing, I believe a lot of God's commands were not merely for obedience, but advice on how we should live to survive.  The 10 Commandments contain a lot of teachings we as humans agree with anyway, such as not killing, lying, coveting, etc.  You of course could say we don't need God to tell us that, but if you look at human history, you can tell that there countless events that prove many humans don't always abide by those.  Theoretically, if there was nobody saying that killing was wrong, then there'd be no reason not to kill, right?  Besides, is it too much to ask that we give a little to God in return, such as thanking it and trying to live as it advises?  I don't think so. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But even without god, won't there still be people saying killing was wrong? If one holds to the belief that only one religion is the correct one, then surely all others, not being the word of god, must be derived solely from the word of man? And if so, is it not comforting that so many religions have rules against killing and stealing?

Other than that, though, I'd have to say that I agree with you (though how I think god advises me isn't going to be how you think god advises you!),

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

First of all, it's not really like that.  And even a parent would want to offer advice and guidance to a child who is lost or suffering. 

 

Maybe he can, but chooses not too.  Every think about that?  And I know you'd say "Well, why didn't he stop the tsunami?"  First, if God controlled the weather, how would we know he wasn't controlling us?  Secondly, if we could say he was controlling the weather, what would stop people from coming out and accusing God of being partial for giving some people bad weather and others good weather.  God, I'm sure, was deeply saddened by the Tsunami.  But at the same time, he can't treat the earth and humanity as his pawns.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes it is, if you turn to your parents every time you have a problem you cant call yourself an adult.

 

So he is lazy then ? Wouldnt you be slightly perturbed if your parents let you die when they could have easily prevented it?

 

But blank just said we are slaves created for the purpose of glorifying god. I take it you dont agree with that ?

Edited December 9, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Dark Moth]

Yes it is, if you turn to your parents every time you have a problem you cant call yourself an adult.

 

So he is lazy then ?

 

But blank just said we are slaves created for the purpose of glorifying god. I take it you dont agree with that ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe God want's us to learn to take care of ourselves, but at the same time I don't think he has a problem with us asking him for guidance. He encourages it, in fact.

 

I think God wants us to remember him and glorify him of course. Would you be a little sad if you created a world and nobody there respected or remembered you? But at the same time, I think God wants us to learn ourselves, to understand things, and to be able to better ourselves and the world around us.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I do, but will politely insist that I believe in god and you don't, because my god exists.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Gaia ?

[Surreptishus]

no... Eris.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

no... Eris.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not familiar with Eris, maybe by a different name.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I think God wants us to remember him and glorify him of course.  Would you be a little sad if you created a world and nobody there respected or remembered you?  But at the same time, I think God wants us to learn ourselves, to understand things, and to be able to better ourselves and the world around us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The irony of that is that if we were still a pagan society we would live in a much nicer world.