Hmm... Change of mind

[SteveThaiBinh]

Yeah, I have to agree with you. KOTOR Two should have come first. It felt out of place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't forget that when Kotor 2 was being finished, there was a LucasArts team working on Kotor 3. Obsidian has said it was aiming for an 'Empire Strikes Back' ending. What would the response have been had The Empire Strikes Back been released, and then George announced there wouldn't be any more movies?

[Czulu]

Yeah, I have to agree with you. KOTOR Two should have come first. It felt out of place.

 

Even if TSL is less "orthodox" and more oryginal than Kotor (who is following the typical SW script), that doesnt mean that it is more "deep". Its just more complicated and haotic thats all.

[Musopticon?]

My opinion is a fact, you know. Just like yours.

[Laozi]

My opinion is a fact, you know. Just like yours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Thats not really fair. Since only my opinion is actually fact.

[Musopticon?]

No, because I think it isn't and that's a fact.

[Meshugger]

Hmm, i suddenly got an urge to do a complete KotOR marathon after reading this thread (both of them in chronological order).

[Commissar]

KOTOR1 has a superior main character, a more realistic main villain that you aren't forced to travel with, some better written quest, and much less bugs over KOTOR2.

There I profoundly disagree, but it's certainly a matter of preference. I prefer clean slate characters, characters that I can actually make on my own. I can figure out their motivations, their histories, etc. While not perfect in that regard, II does offer it much more than I; in the original, I can't help feeling like Bioware's loaning me their character for a couple of hours. In II, when you think about it, not all that much of the Exile's history is truly written, and the game offers you plenty of choices to clarify things. Why he disobeyed the Council, why he came back to face its judgment, whether it was actually the right choice, why he cares about the Sith stalking through the galaxy, even, to a certain extent, the nature of the whole "wound in the Force" bit. I got the impression that neither Kreia nor the Council truly knew just what the hell was up with the Exile; both seemed to me like they were guessing. The common assumption is that the Exile was, in fact, leeching power or life or whatever off of others, but I would argue that there's too much ambiguity for this to be accepted as fact.

 

In plain English, you can do a lot more towards making the character a product of your creation rather than a Bioware loaner.

[Musopticon?]

A good post.

[Commissar]

A good post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, I'm full of them. KotOR II really got me amped for whatever reason, making it much more of a letdown now that I've finally picked up I. I can't get past Dantooine in I without completely losing interest.

 

I recommend picking it up, Mus. It was still selling for $49.99 when I did a few weeks ago, and I don't regret it. I will warn you, however, that you will feel a truly disgusting amount of geekish glee when you start fiddling around with the various configurations of your lightsaber(s).

 

As far as the theme goes, I guess it really depends on what you like. It's certainly darker than most Star Warsy stuff (or at least the Star Warsy stuff that I'm familiar with), and that worked for me. Volo stated that neither of the KotOR games are particularly deep or require much thought, and I don't really know if I agree with that. There is a real sense in the game that things have just gone all to hell. The few Jedi left are in hiding, and seem extremely reluctant to face the Sith, to the point where their rationalizations seem a little suspect. The average guy doesn't care one way or the other about the Jedi or the Sith; the Jedi played a zero-sum game in the Mandalorian wars, and people just remember that they let numerous planets fall in order to keep their strategy intact. So while they tell people that they're around to keep peace, protect the innocent, and all that jazz, they can be seen sitting around while the Mandalorians overrun the joint. Abandoning the Jedi actually seems a pretty sympathetic choice in that case.

 

There are lots of ambiguous elements like that. Onderon's a good example: though it's clear that Queen Whoever is the light side choice, and General Whatshisface is the dark side choice, the actual logical reasoning behind the factions could give you pause. The Republic of the game is failing, costing more than it's benefiting the planet, and the guys behind the General want out of the system, knowing that they can prosper on their own. Is that such a bad thing?

 

I'll leave actual discussions of the way the Force is characterized out of this far too long bon mot, and simply conclude that I believe the game to be a nice departure from usual black-and-white portrayals of all things Star Wars. Does that make it anti-Star Wars? Quite possibly. Genre could use it, though.

[Musopticon?]

I'll take that as a recommendation.

 

 

Damn it, now I have to buy the game to see if you were right.

[Commissar]

So basically because you pretend that the Exile's story is your own and then you don't believe what the game told you about your character, its a better game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope. I feel I have more control over the character's story. That's what roleplaying's all about for the creative writer in me, after all.

 

As far as believing what the game tells you...are you sure it's telling you a consistent story? There aren't any contradictions? Unreliable narrators are always fun. Kreia has a very different interpretation of what's going on than the Jedi Council, for example. They're not telling the same story, so how do you determine which one is correct? Or if one of them is correct in the first place?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That's true. It was easy to figure out that Kreia was the Big Bad tm as soon as you first meet her when she is 'faking' her death. LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kreia never tried to hide who she was. She even told you as much when you spoke to her on the Hawk.

 

May as well face it, Bioware can't do plot twists that work on all but the most er.. basic gamers.

 

Commisar pretty much covered the rest.

Edited December 6, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Laozi]

Nope.  I feel I have more control over the character's story.  That's what roleplaying's all about for the creative writer in me, after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I won't go as far as to call it creative, perhaps motivated

Edited December 6, 2005 by Laozi

[Commissar]

Nope.  I feel I have more control over the character's story.  That's what roleplaying's all about for the creative writer in me, after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I won't go as far as to call it creative, perhaps motivated

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I won't go as far as to call it creative, perhaps motivated

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's as creative as the player wants it to be , within the confines of framework presented by the game. There were very few absolute truths in KOTOR II after all.Even at the end you never really knew if Kriea intended to go through with her plan, or if she had intended to lose all along and her only purpose was to prepare you to face the real threat. Shades of Rave Master there

 

Since In KOTOR I'd worked out by planet II that I was in fact playing a pregenerated character it removed the point of a background completely. Following the game until it finaly caught up with me was a rather empty roleplaying experience since it was clear that I was following nothing more than a script which I had no power to influence beyond the most trivial ways.

[Laozi]

I'll just say Comminssar, that if you'd apply your "creativity" to just about any game then flawed storytelling would be a thing of the past.

 

 

I have to ask, you're a fan of the Black Isle days?

[Commissar]

I'll just say Comminssar, that if you'd apply your "creativity" to just about any game then flawed storytelling would be a thing of the past.

Call me dumb, but what? Spell it out for me, man.

 

I have to ask, you're a fan of the Black Isle days?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I consider myself one, though by no means a rabid fan. I enjoyed Fallout 2. Didn't play Torment. I liked Icewind Dale very much. I think I liked Icewind Dale II even more. I didn't like Baldur's Gate or Baldur's Gate II. I know those are Bioware titles, by the way. Based on what I've said, I imagine that the reason why I've long preferred Black Isle/Obsidian games to Bioware's should be evident.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'll just say Comminssar, that if you'd apply your "creativity" to just about any game then flawed storytelling would be a thing of the past.

 

 

I have to ask, you're a fan of the Black Isle days?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Can't do that though unless you take story control of the character JRPG style. In a choice based RPG creativity is the responsibility of the player. Thats why some people who play IWD spend hours creating backgrounds and motivations for the character where as others just see it as hack and slash.

 

The true test of a choice based game would be does it allow you to exercise that creativity without any obvious boundries. As stated knowing who I was in KOTOR and not being able to challenge the people who were feeding me bull**** wasnt a rewarding experience nor did it make me feel like anything but a puppet in a badly written story.

[Kalfear]

If not for the big rush at the end this thread would likely not exist.

 

KOTOR is fantasy "trash" thats what it has going for it. It's simple to undertand, dosnt challenge you to think and anyone who couldnt see that plot twist coming is obviously perfectly suited to that type of game.

 

If you think about any of the popularity contests, "trash" wins over accomplishment.

 

In KOTOR II there is a lot of stuff going on and you need to think about how those threads connect. Not a huge deal but the "missing" ending will alienate anyone who just wants an easy answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You were playing K1 knowing you were Revan on your first playthrough sure

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually yes I was.

 

EVERY PLOT in K1 was basic and all you needed to do was read what was said!

 

Hell, Vrook all but calls you Revan the first time your in front of him on Dant in K1.

 

K1 was very fun and successfully made the story feel EPIC. But it was far to easy to figure out and lacked any worth while twists to the story. Course exact same complaint can be made about JE as well. Bioware writes great but hasnt mastered no give away forshadowing.

 

PS: For other poster that KEEPS saying he doesnt understand whats going on once he hits Dant in K2 (im guessing hes refering to when you face the 3 masters on Dant).

 

HOW CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND????

 

Even with all the cut content in K2, that part made PERFECT sence and the masters AND Kreia AND Handmaiden (after the fact) All explained the whys so a grade One student could understand.

 

Maybe you dont AGREE with what the masters did, thats something totally different, and even I ( a huge K2 fan) would agree their attempting to strip the force from you would be very unjedi like! BUT THEY EXPLAINED THEIR ACTIONS FULLY! All you had to do was read what they said. The logic was flawed for sure, but there is NO way to not understand it.

 

Sorry just hate when people complain about something thats so straight forward and basic.

[Musopticon?]

<snip rantage>

Sorry just hate when people complain about something  thats so straight forward and basic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't. I've been banned a few times for the exact same reason; most people are oblivious and blind.

 

I agree.

[Czulu]

There are lots of ambiguous elements like that. Onderon's a good example: though it's clear that Queen Whoever is the light side choice, and General Whatshisface is the dark side choice, the actual logical reasoning behind the factions could give you pause. The Republic of the game is failing, costing more than it's benefiting the planet, and the guys behind the General want out of the system, knowing that they can prosper on their own. Is that such a bad thing?

 

Yes it is. Because if Republic falls aprart, anybod that try to conquer the galaxy would have very easy job to do. Just look who is supporting Vaklu - Nihilus troops. How long do you think it would take until Onderon fall into their rule ? If the republic after 2 wars is coming trugh difficult times its not a resaon for their members to take their toys and go away...

 

But it was far to easy to figure out and lacked any worth while twists to the story

 

Care to explain where do you see "worth while twists to the story in" TSL ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yes it is. Because if Republic falls aprart, anybod that try to conquer the galaxy would have very easy job to do. Just look who is supporting Vaklu - Nihilus troops. How long do you think it would take until Onderon fall into their rule ? If the republic after 2 wars is coming trugh difficult times its not a resaon for their members to take their toys and go away...

 

Care to explain where do you see "worth while twists to the story in" TSL ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A Galaxy under a single ruler would be more able to combat the threat than a fractuous galaxy under an inefective republic. Which is what the revised Revan plan was all about.

Edited December 6, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Czulu]

A Galaxy under a single ruler would be more able to combat the threat than a fractuous galaxy under an inefective republic. Which is what the revised Revan plan was all about.

 

Galaxy under one ruler would have a big tendency to turn into brutal tyranny such as Palpatines Galaktic Empire.

 

And one more thing - KotoR also have better soundrack than TSL. Mabe You guys dont pay attention on such things but i really liked music in KotoR and consider it to play very important role in game.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"And one more thing - KotoR also have better soundrack than TSL."

 

No it doesn't. Well, not after the music restoration patch.

[Czulu]

No it doesn't. Well, not after the music restoration patch

 

Huh ? You spek about patch 1.0b ? It dont change music, just make it to play lauder. The Bastilas, Malaks and Republic themes are still superior to anything in TSL .