Games that make you think

[Janmanden]

I love how (almost) everyone keeps focusing on the wrong problem in this thread...

 

Some of you in this thread keep confusing fantasizing with problem solving. Sure, Planescape: Torment made you think about what the hell happened to the poor characters, but there wasn't anything difficult or mind-bending about it. You just followed the story and that was basically it. You didn't exactly exercise your brain by fantasizing about the various story branches.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's pretty shallow. If you play torment as a free-form adventure game (some variant of a chaotic person, if it's even a candidate for roleplaying) you only need to 'think' about the solution and tactical combat at hand, but if you try to play a specific alignment, to roleplay, you actually need to think about it in the long run as well. Maybe it's just me, but my fantasies have a tendency to revolve around women and sometimes they can be rather uh, complex, but otherwise I agree - I think...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

One great example of a problem I remember from 'the old days' was the flying carpet in Ultima V. In Lord British castle, at the top floor, was a small room on the roof. In front of that room there was a carpet that looked like a regular mat. During the course of the game you heard rumours about a flying carpet as you travelled the world. Eventually, if you found all the right clues and talked to all the right people, you'd find out that the carpet lying in front of that room is actually a flying carpet if you picked it up and used it. It was en extremely useful tool for travelling (since Ultima had a huge world to travel in), it was easy to get once you knew how (obtainable right from the beginning of the game), but only those who went out of their way to find out about it would ever get it. Not obligatory, but still a great incentive and reward for those who enjoyed taking their time to solve the puzzle. That's what I miss from today's games.

 

 

Edit: Spelling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sounds like the Original Pokemon Colloseum. Purify every single shadow Pokemon. Defeat all 100 trainers on mount battle and you got a Ho-Ho as a reward.

 

Perhaps one of a more puzzle oriented nature would be the buried chambers in Ruby/Saphire where you got the regi's. Even had to translate brail for that one.

 

Games could learn so much from pokemon

[~Di]

3) Phantasmagoria

 

That game scared the pee-wadden outta me. *shudder* It's been years and years since I played it and I still get the heebie-jeebies thinking about it.

 

Ordinarily I'm not a real puzzle-nut when it comes to video games. I don't like to break down in tears, and try to chew off my own fingers in frustration. I do, however, love squad-based tactical and turn-based strategy, games that can be played over and over with different methods that yield different results. I used to play a lot of puzzle-based adventure games, but kinda burnt out on them after the second or third Myst and the 11th Guest things...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The rescue mission on Fire Emblem Path of Radiance (GC). Thats probably the last thing that required some serious thought.

 

Basically you have to rescue a series of prisoners while guards patrol. However if you end your turn within the range of a guard (and the range is huge) the alarm goes off. Likewise if you talk to a prisoner and then leave them in the cell and the guard spots them the alarm goes off.

 

You need to pull out all the tricks like rescuing characters and transporting them. Since not only will you need to rescue your own characters (because there are so few spaces the guards cant see) but also rescue the prisoners too. In many cases there is only one correct move you can make. It's also really easy to start of with your group and then suddenly find yourself with nowhere to move that wont take you into the range of a guard.

 

Manage that and you get around a 1000 bonus XP (or about 10 levels worth to spread amoung your party).

 

The good news is, you dont have to do it. You can simply set off the alarm and take out the reinforcements as they arrive. Dont get any bonus XP for that though.

 

There are quite a few instances where not killing certain units or meeting certain goals reward you with XP. But the prison break is the real highlight.

[Musopticon?]

The good news is, you dont have to do it. You can simply set off the alarm and take out the reinforcements as they arrive. Dont get any bonus XP for that though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Before I got to this part, it sounded very anal and forced. But as an optional thing; well, it sounds cool.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Musopticon?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Before I got to this part, it sounded very anal and forced. But as an optional thing; well, it sounds cool.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would indeed. What makes it worth while is that in FireEmblem certain classes are way more difficult to level than others.

 

Then again few things are more rewarding than watching Rolf go from snot nosed kid archer to totally lethal sniper.

[metadigital]

Yes it is. Surprise[d] it doesn't induce seizures once it starts going very fast as you level up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You obviously haven't witnessed high enough levels: go back and play again ...

One great example of a problem I remember from 'the old days' was the flying carpet in Ultima V. In Lord British castle, at the top floor, was a small room on the roof. In front of that room there was a carpet that looked like a regular mat. During the course of the game you heard rumours about a flying carpet as you travelled the world. Eventually, if you found all the right clues and talked to all the right people, you'd find out that the carpet lying in front of that room is actually a flying carpet if you picked it up and used it. It was en extremely useful tool for travelling (since Ultima had a huge world to travel in), it was easy to get once you knew how (obtainable right from the beginning of the game), but only those who went out of their way to find out about it would ever get it. Not obligatory, but still a great incentive and reward for those who enjoyed taking their time to solve the puzzle. That's what I miss from today's games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like the Original Pokemon Colloseum. Purify every single shadow Pokemon. Defeat all 100 trainers on mount battle and you got a Ho-Ho as a reward.

 

Perhaps one of a more puzzle oriented nature would be the buried chambers in Ruby/Saphire where you got the regi's. Even had to translate brail for that one.

 

Games could learn so much from Pokemon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

mkreku: AD REM.

 

Paladin: I agree, as Pokemon seems to be a pure form of game theory, that all games either use or CAN use strategies and tactics straight out of the game.

The good news is, you dont have to do it. You can simply set off the alarm and take out the reinforcements as they arrive. Dont get any bonus XP for that though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Before I got to this part, it sounded very anal and forced. But as an optional thing; well, it sounds cool.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*Moves closer to finding a Pokemon game that will run on some sort of PC emulation*

[Llyranor]

Have the player think by giving several viable dialogue respnoses.  (S)he'll have to read carefully before selecting the relevant one (within reason).  Related to my Optimal thread in NJ forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Winner.

 

Dialogue choices that are worth reading through and difficult to choose from = awesome.

 

One dialogue choice per archetype category (evil jerk, pompous goody loser, greedy merc, volo, etc) != meaningful roleplaying.

[metadigital]

Things that make you go Mmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[Gabrielle]

The only puzzle like quest I liked in a game was Durlags Tower in BG1.

The puzzles in BG2, IWD2 are lame.

[mkreku]

Another thing I miss from games of today are hidden stuff. I'm not talking abot a chest that's behind a tree (as in most jRPG's), but stuff that's difficult to find. Again, the Ultima's are great examples of this. They are full of hidden treasures, dungeons and even towns.

[Darkside]

How about the secret dungeon on Dungeon Siege 2? That was a pain in the butt to find, and even then, the monsters they designed just for it are a pain for a lvl 50 character to take down.

 

You had to find the entire Mysterious Item set throughout the game. Then you have to get the teleporter key from the mysterious figure that only appears a few times and completely at random, only to disappear after about five seconds. Then you still have to figure out the chant which, by the way, isn't in the game anywhere, you have to figure it out on your own! Talk about hidden.

 

EDIT: Of course, halfway through the dungeon my game glitched and wouldn't let me through the next to last door. <_<

Edited November 24, 2005 by Darkside

[metadigital]

Random != challenging.

Random is a cop-out for designing clever puzzles.

 

Puzzles don't have to be physical, either. Most hacking nowadays is done via Social Engineering; similarly, engineering a NPCs reaction (completing some optional quests to impress a character, e.g. Mandalore on Dxun in K2) is a puzzle, too. Just a very, very basic one. Onderon waws a little more complex, in that the PC could "hack" the guards to undermine the Queen, but still there is a lot more than can be done.

[Gabrielle]

Of course Meta is right to a degree.

 

When I mention puzzles I mean the ones you find in BG2 in Spellhold Asylum.

[Musopticon?]

^Those were classical infinity routine puzzles.

 

 

When it comes to puzzles in modern rpgs(as in past-BG 1), Arx Fatalis is still unbeaten in quality.

Edited November 25, 2005 by Musopticon?

[Janmanden]

Another thing I miss from games of today are hidden stuff. I'm not talking abot a chest that's behind a tree (as in most jRPG's), but stuff that's difficult to find.

 

That's right. Funny how Wolfenstein 3D had that hidden feature, that caused you to examine every wall that seemed like just the place for a secret....later in games like Doom, Quake, etc. that got whacked and dumbed down completely, now there was buttons...tch.

[metadigital]

Yes, I would summarise as follows: (slight spoilers):

 

Good:

Hidden parts to game, as seen in games like Duke Nukem and especially Ultima

 

Bad:

Randomised events

Tediously exhaustive sets of actions that must be completed

Hidden items like the chewing gum in Beneath a Steel Sky

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Not sure I agree. Some randomized elements can sometimes help a game gain a certain level of replayability and leave players without knowing what to expect when they replay. While I agree that random, critical game events (such as puzzles) are a bad idea; things like randomized dungeons, quests and non critical game situations can enhance a game, especially a CRPG.

 

 

EDIT: I think this concept of randomized situations derived from your conversation about adventure games, though I thought I should support randomization itself in other fields

Edited November 25, 2005 by Role-Player

[metadigital]

Yes.