No more cloth for me.

[WITHTEETH]

Whether we have free will or not, we do not have true power over ourselves.  At the very least, we don't have full power over ourselves.  If we're to take "power" to mean "free will," then I'll agree to that.  It's a working definition.  It still doesn't address scientific, philosophical, and religious determinism, but that's okay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I still disagree with you. We do have power over each other, Its just matters how strong the individual is.

Besides, even if you don't have power over yourself you might as well think you do. Or else you think your just an object, a tool, a cork in the machine. It may be unhealthy, and certainly not optimistic. Dostoevsky who is also a Christian disagrees with your assumption also, He has wrote many great books, I think Nots from the Underground goes into this very deeply. He is also an existentialist.

Edited November 24, 2005 by WITHTEETH

[Blank]

Soooooooooooooo, the individual's power is about all the power an individual needs to consider themselves a god ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for summarizing that, i was beginning to lose you. I see if you are an epistemological existential empiricist then okay, but I am not, and i don't think you are.

 

So more importantly, what do you believe on this matter? (well, unless you are an epistemological existential empiricist, then i respect your view but disagree and beseech you to contemplate what i have to say) Does the power that everyone has over themselves constitute them as a 'god'? Why not just say,"everyone has a certain amount of power over themselves and their surroundings" instead of "everyone is their own 'god'"? because saying 'god' to me means something like controlling or having more power than normal people can or do have. Otherwise, the word 'god' might as well mean human being...

 

To COF, um, sorry for turning this into another worldview apologetics thread... but hopefully it'll help you better create your own subjective interaction interphase with absolute truth (er, 'worldview' if you believe there is an absolute truth that is not absolutely knowable)

Edited November 24, 2005 by Blank

[Blank]

I still disagree with you.  We do have power over each other, Its just matters how strong the individual is.

Besides, even if you don't have power over yourself you might as well think you do. Or else you think your just an object, a tool, a cork in the machine. It may be unhealthy, and certainly not optimistic. Dostoevsky who is also a Christian disagrees with your assumption also, He has wrote many great books, I think Nots from the Underground goes into this very deeply. He is also an existentialist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, here is a simple argument, what if somebody pushed you forward and you didn't want to move forward, and in fact, you were resisting. Do you have full power over yourself now?

[WITHTEETH]

THe normal person can be a God if they choose to. They have the Choice, but with that choice also comes great Responsiblity. You are now responsible for your own actions. You can't blame God for that is bad faith, there are no excuses. You bare the weight of everything you do. You are an example, a God.

[Blank]

i see you really want to change the definition of 'god' to 'human being'. so i will not resist for now. but in my book, a 'god' still has to have a notable amount of power greater than a human. and i don't believe in any 'god' other than YHWH, so i don't even accept my own definition. For example, satan has more power than the normal person, but i'd just call him the devil or satan.

 

edit: typos

Edited November 24, 2005 by Blank

[WITHTEETH]

I still disagree with you.  We do have power over each other, Its just matters how strong the individual is.

Besides, even if you don't have power over yourself you might as well think you do. Or else you think your just an object, a tool, a cork in the machine. It may be unhealthy, and certainly not optimistic. Dostoevsky who is also a Christian disagrees with your assumption also, He has wrote many great books, I think Nots from the Underground goes into this very deeply. He is also an existentialist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, here is a simple argument, what if somebody pushed you forward and you didn't want to move forward, and in fact, you were resisting. Do you have full power over yourself now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mentally you are not determined. If a Hurricane hits you, your gonna die i bet, you cannot defeat death.

 

But even if your stripped of everything, even your hair, you still have the choice. Even if your in a concentration camp, you have the choice to how you think. Some people will submit and do exactly as they are told, but strong individuuals, such as Frankl, Ghandi, Nietszche can't be broken, they are free. They didn't submit. So why should you? Do you believe Nazi soldiers are not guilty for killing their own country men? they had the choice to not do so, few made that choice to leave, and not kill. Those who chose not to kill and not be prejudice are the strong.

 

Strong people are rare, they are free, and knowthemselves. The world is theirs, just ask napoleon.

[Calax]

i see you really want to change the definition of 'god' to 'human being'. so i will not resist for now. but in my book, a 'god' still has to have a notable amount of power greater than a human. and i don't believe in any 'god' other than YHWH, so i don't even accept my own definition. For example, satan has more power than the normal person, but i'd just call him the devil or satan.

 

edit: typos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wouldn't then the spiders god be us because we have a notable amount of power greater than a spider? Same for most species on this earth.

 

To say that you only follow Yahweh (sp?)(sry if I spelled that wrong blank I mean no offence) means you only follow the old testament version of god in my book. That is the only place where he's called YahWeh. Thus your particular god is vengeful and would kill you if you made a single mistake. Also in your version of the book Lucifer is an angel who works more as gods prosocuter than anything else.

 

And for more examples of you not following your own deffenition, all the angels are more powerful than us by a HUGE margin. Thus they are gods.

[WITHTEETH]

i see you really want to change the definition of 'god' to 'human being'. so i will not resist for now. but in my book, a 'god' still has to have a notable amount of power greater than a human. and i don't believe in any 'god' other than YHWH, so i don't even accept my own definition. For example, satan has more power than the normal person, but i'd just call him the devil or satan.

 

edit: typos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me guess, a god to you is a wise man who walks on water and farts lightening bolts? Go to the Eastside its an asexual who farts reincarnation. Just the different side of the same coin.

[Blank]

Mentally you are not determined.

so are you saying you can't have full power over yourself physically but mentally you can? (because i think i would agree with you for the most part, except i have this other belief that if you don't have the Holy Spirit's help, then you are a slave to sin and don't have a choice but to continue in your sinful nature, so i agree with you other than that)

 

But even if your stripped of everything, even your hair, you still have the choice. Even if your in a concentration camp, you have the choice to how you think. Some people will submit and do exactly as they are told, but strong individuuals, such as Frankl, Ghandi, Nietszche can't be broken, they are free. They didn't submit. So why should you? Do you believe Nazi soldiers are not guilty for killing their own country men? they had the choice to not do so, few made that choice to leave, and not kill. Those who chose not to kill and not be prejudice are the strong.

 

Strong people are rare, they are free, and knowthemselves.  The world is theirs, just ask napoleon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Strong individuals now equals a 'god'? i agree, there is power that a human can have. power over themselves. A very very self-controlled person is rather rare, but they are out there. I still won't accept the term 'god' to be assigned to them though. BTW, the Nazi soldiers are responsible for their actions, like you said earlier, so they would be judged accordingly i believe. i believe they had the choice to do the right thing.

[Blank]

wouldn't then the spiders god be us because we have a notable amount of power greater than a spider? Same for most species on this earth.

 

To say that you only follow Yahweh (sp?)(sry if I spelled that wrong blank I mean no offence) means you only follow the old testament version of god in my book. That is the only place where he's called YahWeh. Thus your particular god is vengeful and would kill you if you made a single mistake. Also in your version of the book Lucifer is an angel who works more as gods prosocuter than anything else.

 

And for more examples of you not following your own deffenition, all the angels are more powerful than us by a HUGE margin. Thus they are gods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No offense taken first of all. it is fine if you misspell something, i really don't care too much. I say YHWH because God calls Himself that in the old testament (using the four old-hebrew letters and it is not pronounced by some people because they don't want to offend God by saying His name wrong, in the protestant english translations they just turn the word into 'God' usually)

 

Second of all, I believe that the old testament God is the same Father of Jesus Christ, so to say that He is vengeful and would kill me for a single mistake if i didn't have Jesus is correct, but He offered Jesus to me and everybody else and now that i have accepted Jesus i am grateful that I am reconciled to God and that He will no longer penalize me for my sins

 

Third of all, Lucifer is only used once in the Bible in Isaiah 14 and actually is referring to a king of Babylon! NOT SATAN'S NAME! Many people believe it is also talking about satan because you see things in the passage that look like they are talking to satan. Whatever the case, a king or satan, to rise up against God is not smart. Lucifer literally means "morning star", and the word came from a translator who took what the word sounds like in Hebrew and spelled it in his own language, thus we get a name mistranslation. He should've just said 'Morning Star', golly, those fellas just wanna make a bunch of trouble.

(Isaiah 14:12-15

 

[Cantousent]

I disagree with you in the long haul, WITHTEETH, because I believe those factors outside factors that surround us at birth and follow us through life provide our perspective. That perspective is an insidious tryant, controlling us in ways we cannot even begin to fully understand.

 

On the other hand, I believe we have free will. I'm of the "God gave us free will" variety.

 

I agree with you without reservation on a couple of points. First of all, we must act and live as if we have free will, otherwise society can't function. Plus, I agree that it is unhealthy to believe we are completely powerless over our lives. Even if I didn't believe in my own free will, which I do, I would still understand that the mechancics of determinism, no matter the flavor, are too detatched for me to use them as a guideline for living my life. Someone might as well say, "there are secret thought police who put thoughts in your head to make you do certain things at certain times." Sure, someone might believe in such thought police, but since I cannot detect the police, and since I must live my life, I will have to put worries of thought police aside. ...Or should I say, I hope the thought police put such worries aside. What am I besides my thoughts and feelings in the first place?

 

Second of all, I truly appreciate the Dostoevsky reference. He's one of my favorite authors. He really dealt with this issue at length over the course of his writings. Crime and Punishment is perhaps my favorite novel. It deals with the idea of choice and theory. One line strikes me for some reason. Porfiry tells Raskolnikov, regarding Raskolnikov's options for flight, "No, you won't run away. A peasant would run away, a fashionable dissenter would run away, the flunkey of another man's thought, for you've only to show him the end of your little finger and he'll be ready to believe in anything for the rest of his life."

[Calax]

ok blank... to throw this off on another tangent, Lucifer is what he's commonly known as AFTER he fell. Before he's Samael. It was the angel that I was referring to not the name.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"We cannot change ourselves from human to spider, let's say, and then back again."

 

I was a parrot yesterday.

[Raphael]

"We cannot change ourselves from human to spider, let's say, and then back again."

 

I was a parrot yesterday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Congrats Sarjahurmaaja, you have just redefined the meaning of a lame pathetic joke

 

And for your prize you're here by awarded by a one of a kind toilet paper specially designed just for your as*hole

 

Enjoy

[Calax]

In the immortal words or Montey Python:

 

"SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!"

"Well you don't look like a newt..."

"I got better.."

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Congrats Sarjahurmaaja, you have just redefined the meaning of a lame pathetic joke"

 

No, I do believe that honor belong to the person, whomever it might be, that is responsible for your existance. I wish to offer you my most sincere condolences and sympathies.

Edited November 24, 2005 by Sarjahurmaaja.

[WITHTEETH]

"We cannot change ourselves from human to spider, let's say, and then back again."

 

I was a parrot yesterday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Congrats Sarjahurmaaja, you have just redefined the meaning of a lame pathetic joke

 

And for your prize you're here by awarded by a one of a kind toilet paper specially designed just for your as*hole

 

Enjoy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your always so negative Ralph. Do you need a hug?

[kirottu]

This flame thing is warm. Does it burn?

[Gabrielle]

It feels all warm and fuzzy in here.

[Reveilled]

Free will predates the existence of god. Free will is not bestowed upon us by her, as she did not create it. She embodies it.

 

Consult your pineal gland.

[Musopticon?]

I bet you prefer pineapples to pears? Am I right?

[Reveilled]

I bet you prefer pineapples to pears? Am I right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fruit is a tool of Greyface. Truly pious people, like me, only eat deep-fried meats and potato products. And hot dogs on fridays. "

[Musopticon?]

I dare to venture a guess that you don't mind the odd dairy product when the Reverend's distracted. Only the dead are truly of the piety.

[Janmanden]

Peach is a lie, there is only passion fruit.

[Gabrielle]

I like cherries.