Kreia on Telos

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"By that logic you'd have to physically activate that feat for those particular scenes."

 

Oh, really? I seem to be unable to formulate this train of logic in my mind, so please do explain how exactly you arrived at that conclusion.

 

"It is completely beyond me how people can stick to Obsidian so tenaciously on this issue, but I guess some people buy things easier."

 

Sounds like it's not the only thing that's beyond you. That is to say, let's not try to make clever allusions, even if very subtle, about the abilities of those we discuss with, hmm?

[Darth_Schmarth]

"By that logic you'd have to physically activate that feat for those particular scenes."

 

Oh, really? I seem to be unable to formulate this train of logic in my mind, so please do explain how exactly you arrived at that conclusion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Allow me to shed some light on the matter for you: The Stealth feat is just that: a feat. As such it is subject to possible detection. I, and several other players of this game with me, do not necessarily find her invisibility to kick-ass Jedi Masters implausible because of the setting in which the story is told, but rather because of the general notion of story credibility it conveys.

 

"It is completely beyond me how people can stick to Obsidian so tenaciously on this issue, but I guess some people buy things easier."

 

Sounds like it's not the only thing that's beyond you. That is to say, let's not try to make clever allusions, even if very subtle, about the abilities of those we discuss with, hmm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Verily, do lead by example.

[Judge Hades]

They explained it with a half-ass, mediocre explanation, that's how.  The SW setting has shown that the force can mask someone's presence to avoid detection, but not make them outright invisible.  Obsidian made it up, in other words. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In case you didn't notice, THE WHOLE BLOODY THING IS MADE UP! Sheesh.

[Jedi Master Dakari]

You don't have to search for some reason elsewhere because the reasons are right there in the game. You are just closed-minded individuals who look at nothing else but what you saw the first time you played the game, and will not try and look deeper into the story to find out why the things are as they are. Why? I don't know. I guess it's just too much work for you.

 

All I can say is...if you're not playing K1 or K2 for the story, then you might as well not be playing them as all. Because that is what they are based on, good story.

 

TSL has a great, deep story. But I guess it is just too deep for some. <_<

 

And, most importantly, Dark Jedi can't just go up and Force Lightning or choke a Jedi Master anyway. Kreia can go invisible and kill them with a wave of her hand.

 

I remember quite well that Palpatine fried Windu's tail pretty toasty before throwing him out of the widow of his office into the depths of Coruscant. And he also threw Yoda a good punch one time as well. I realize that Palpatine is a Sith Lord and not a Dark Jedi, but if these two instances are not "Force Lightning or choke a Jedi Master", then I don't know is.

 

And like is said before, I don't think that Kreia was invisible. I do believe, however, that she was able to be seen, but keep her identity a secret.

 

Also, she didn't kill the Jedi Masters. What she did was drain them - or cut them off from - the Force. She did this to prove that her teachings were correct, that their dogmatic teachings were flawed, and that life can exist without the Force. This is why the exile is so precious to her, because he is proof. The three masters were simply either too afraid, or too weak, to be able to live without the Force. So they died as a side-effect. She may have cause them to be killed, but she did not kill them.

[Judge Hades]

So we can put a Super Plasma Death Robot in a Fantasy setting and say "Hey, it works 'cause it's all made up anyway"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey, it worked for HK-47.

 

The focus of fantasy is its magic. The Force is Magic. Star Wars focus is on the Force, which is magic, therefore fantasy.

[Darth_Schmarth]

You're being either silly, ignorant, stupid or all three.

[Judge Hades]

Not at all. There has been times where a giant robot has appeared in a Fantasy setting and/or literature. Ever played in the Scarred Lands setting for the 3.5e DnD? In the city of Mithril they have mech sized robot/golem made of Mithril guarding the city.

 

As I said, the Force is magic and if you have enough power you can do anything you want with magic.

[Darth_Schmarth]

You don't have to search for some reason elsewhere because the reasons are right there in the game. You are just closed-minded individuals who look at nothing else but what you saw the first time you played the game, and will not try and look deeper into the story to find out why the things are as they are. Why? I don't know. I guess it's just too much work for you.

 

All I can say is...if you're not playing K1 or K2 for the story, then you might as well not be playing them as all. Because that is what they are based on, good story.

 

TSL has a great, deep story. But I guess it is just too deep for some. <_<

 

And, most importantly, Dark Jedi can't just go up and Force Lightning or choke a Jedi Master anyway. Kreia can go invisible and kill them with a wave of her hand.

 

I remember quite well that Palpatine fried Windu's tail pretty toasty before throwing him out of the widow of his office into the depths of Coruscant. And he also threw Yoda a good punch one time as well. I realize that Palpatine is a Sith Lord and not a Dark Jedi, but if these two instances are not "Force Lightning or choke a Jedi Master", then I don't know is.

 

And like is said before, I don't think that Kreia was invisible. I do believe, however, that she was able to be seen, but keep her identity a secret.

 

Also, she didn't kill the Jedi Masters. What she did was drain them - or cut them off from - the Force. She did this to prove that her teachings were correct, that their dogmatic teachings were flawed, and that life can exist without the Force. This is why the exile is so precious to her, because he is proof. The three masters were simply either too afraid, or too weak, to be able to live without the Force. So they died as a side-effect. She may have cause them to be killed, but she did not kill them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good story, poor plot. Herein lies the game's big problem, I'm afraid. This whole argument, however, revolves around the very plausibility of Kreia's being able to stay invisible, literally or not, to the Jedi Masters. I would not compare Palpatine's frying a puzzled, deceived and seriously wounded Mace with Kreia's kick-ass showing in the Enclave. But I guess we will never be in agreement, so maybe we should just drop it?

[Darth_Schmarth]

Not at all.  There has been times where a giant robot has appeared in a Fantasy setting and/or literature.  Ever played in the Scarred Lands setting for the 3.5e DnD?  In the city of Mithril they have mech sized robot/golem made of Mithril guarding the city.

 

As I said, the Force is magic and if you have enough power you can do anything you want with magic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we both know I didn't exactly have Mithril golems on my mind.

[Judge Hades]

Actually the people of Mithril don't know what the big metal giant is, for it just appeared during the Titanwar and defended the city. It could be magic. It could be technological. They just don't know.

 

Lets not forget about Clark's Law either: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable to magic. Keep in mind that the reverse is also true.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Allow me to shed some light on the matter for you: The Stealth feat is just that: a feat. As such it is subject to possible detection."

 

You seem to have misunderstood me. I only mentioned the feat, because it is an in-game represantion of Kreia's ability to hide herself, and as such shows that the Jedi Master scenes (or, rather, the lack of such) were not an "oversight".

 

Of course, being what it is, an in-game mechanic, it was also suspectible to game balance.

 

"I, and several other players of this game with me, do not necessarily find her invisibility to kick-ass Jedi Masters implausible because of the setting in which the story is told, but rather because of the general notion of story credibility it conveys."

 

Pardon me, but while I've seen you say it is bad writing to do so several times, I've yet to see you explain why it is bad writing. So, enlighten me.

 

"Verily, do lead by example."

 

No, I'm the one who shows how deep the whole you're digging is going to be.

[Darth_Schmarth]

"Allow me to shed some light on the matter for you: The Stealth feat is just that: a feat. As such it is subject to possible detection."

 

You seem to have misunderstood me. I only mentioned the feat, because it is an in-game represantion of Kreia's ability to hide herself, and as such shows that the Jedi Master scenes (or, rather, the lack of such) were not an "oversight".

 

Of course, being what it is, an in-game mechanic, it was also suspectible to game balance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't entirely agree, but let's not dwell on it. I accept your argument.

 

"I, and several other players of this game with me, do not necessarily find her invisibility to kick-ass Jedi Masters implausible because of the setting in which the story is told, but rather because of the general notion of story credibility it conveys."

 

Pardon me, but while I've seen you say it is bad writing to do so several times, I've yet to see you explain why it is bad writing. So, enlighten me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you have not seen that I suggest you read my posts again. Since I suspect you won't I will enlighten you: I consider it bad writing because it fails to produce a sense of balance within the micro (?) cosmos it represents. For me the general experience of the game suffers because Kreia is portrayed as something too powerful. Let's take the current blockbuster movie "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory", for instance. Imagine Willy Wonka snapping his finger and a giant chocolate man ten times the size of the city comes in and eats the entire factory in one bite to end the movie. While that may not be totally alien to the story's setting, it disrupts the credibility of the artwork and you will likely (likely) disapprove.

 

"Verily, do lead by example."

 

No, I'm the one who shows how deep the whole you're digging is going to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cheers.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

Funny. I thought I'd never say this, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

"Cheers."

 

It isn't a thankful job, but it sure is fun.

[Jedi Master Dakari]

I would not compare Palpatine's frying a puzzled, deceived and seriously wounded Mace with Kreia's kick-ass showing in the Enclave.

 

Why not? Kavar, Vrook, and Zez-Kai Ell were all very puzzled and astonished that Kreia was there. Vrook even voiced that puzzlement when he said that he had thought she died at Malachor V. They were caught off-guard in really the same manner that Mace was when Anakin cut his hand off.

 

And if you want to argue that she would not have been able to drain of the Force because they were Jedi Masters, then I urge you to ask her to show you her past. A line in her story is this... "There a techniques within the Force against which there is no defense." And I also urge you to recount the happenings of Ulic Qel-Droma.

 

This whole argument, however, revolves around the very plausibility of Kreia's being able to stay invisible, literally or not, to the Jedi Masters.

 

Kreia was not physically invisible...unless you did activate the Stealth feat. Here very good reasons to support some of the many things I (and many others) have already said..

 

1: The Jedi Council had believed Kreia to be dead. (It is suspected that she is Arren Kae; which is very possible.)

2: Her appearance has changed much since she was last a Jedi Master. (One of Atton's first few lines upon the Ebon Hawk were purposfully added to give us this clue.)

3: The worlds on which your quests lie in K2 are those either touched by war or drowned in life, which prevents you from detecting other Force-sensative. ("It makes detecting other Force users difficult." -- Zez-Kai Ell, "If there are any here I cannot sense them." -- Vrook, "Old woman?" -- Atris)

 

Keep in mind that Atris never did see Kreia. Kreia was locked away in the containment cell while Atris barely went so far as to leave her Meditation Chamber but for a few feet. Reguardless, she never detected Kreia's presence in the Force. But as soon as the Handmaidens told her this, she came to full realization who Kreia was, and that she indeed was there and that the exile was fitting into her plan perfectly.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Jedi Master Dakari

[Dark Moth]

Also, she didn't kill the Jedi Masters. What she did was drain them - or cut them off from - the Force. She did this to prove that her teachings were correct, that their dogmatic teachings were flawed, and that life can exist without the Force. This is why the exile is so precious to her, because he is proof. The three masters were simply either too afraid, or too weak, to be able to live without the Force. So they died as a side-effect. She may have cause them to be killed, but she did not kill them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There lies another contradiction in the story. If other Jedi have been cut off from the force in the past, why didn't they die, either? If cutting off someone from the force was the equivalent of a death sentence, why does it bother to make a distinction between the two? Simple answer: because cutting you off from the force doesn't kill you. What Obsidian did contradicts the SW universe to begin with. So why all of a sudden is Kreia able to kill all three of them by just "cutting them off" from the force? Also, why couldn't she use that technique on Sion or Nihilus, the ones who betrayed her? Same thing goes for her supposed stealth ability.

 

And further more, one of the masters even says in the game that the exile wasn't cut off from the force, he was merely deafened to it, hence he couldn't feel it. It's sort of like Beethoven being deaf to music: he couldn't here the music, but it was still there. You could say that he was lying, but then again, it would be more likely that Kreia was lying to you about being totally cut off from the force. She is Darth Traya, after all.

 

By the way, in the game, you ask Kreia why on the planets none of the Masters mention (not see) Kreia. And then Kreia begins her philosophical babble blah blah blah. They never explained, however, why Kreia was able to stand right in front of the masters without being noticed.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Mothman

[Judge Hades]

Do you really need this explained to you to?

 

The stronger one is to the force, the stronger the connection, and when that connection is so strong but then suddenly cut the backlash kills. The weaker one is to the force the less the damage is.

 

For example if Kriea did such attack on Luke before his training on Dagobah he would more than likely survive. However if she did the attack as when he is in the Vector Prime books and later the attack backlash would probably kill him.

 

The stronger you are withthe force, the greater the vulnerability when cut from it.

 

EDIT: Mothman, you need to pay attention more and read between the lines.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Hades_One

[Dark Moth]

Do you really need this explained to you to?

 

The stronger one is to the force, the stronger the connection, and when that connection is so strong but then suddenly cut the backlash kills.  The weaker one is to the force the less the damage is.

 

For example if Kriea did such attack on Luke before his training on Dagobah he would more than likely survive.  However if she did the attack as when he is in the Vector Prime books and later the attack backlash would probably kill him.

 

The stronger you are withthe force, the greater the vulnerability when cut from it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know that for a fact, or because you made it up?

Edited October 10, 2005 by Mothman

[Jedi Master Dakari]

And if you continue to argue that Kreia's ability to hide her presence in the Force is something that was made by Obsidian to cover for a bad story, then read this from Starwars.com...

 

....but the cagey Jedi hid her true abilities and powers from her captors. ....She had the ability to withdraw her presence from the Force, so she could remain undetectable to the Jedi-sensitive yammosks of the Yuuzhan Vong.

[Judge Hades]

Again I will have to say this, IT'S ALL MADE UP!

[Dark Moth]

Again I will have to say this, IT'S ALL MADE UP!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No crap. But your last post seemed to be something that YOU specifically made up or assumed, not the devs themselves. There's a big difference there.

 

@JMD: I already know all about the ability to mask your presence in the force. But that is not the same thing as being entirely INVISIBLE. And I'll ask again: why does Kreia not seem to be able to use this ability to defend herself any other time? And if you can say it's perfectly alright for Kreia to be able to do this, why not just go out and say it's okay for Bastila to do it on Taris as well?

Edited October 10, 2005 by Mothman

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"What she did was drain them - or cut them off from - the Force."

 

Wait, what?

 

Didn't she just subject them to what the Exile had experienced on Malachor V?

[BattleCookiee]

@ Jedi Master Dakari

Again Sideous' like "Hiding your Force Affection", not "being invisible when infront of your enemy"

 

So we can put a Super Plasma Death Robot in a Fantasy setting and say "Hey, it works 'cause it's all made up anyway"?

 

Acually, that can.

See Dungeon Siege - Goblins

 

Not appreciated by everybody though...

[Jedi Master Dakari]

Simple answer: because cutting you off from the force doesn't kill you.

 

No, it doesn't necessarily kill you. However, if you are too weak, unwilling, or too afraid to do so, then it will kill you.

 

"We spend out entire live connected with the Force. And to have it suddenly stripped from you, to picture a life without the Force, it is a frightening thing indeed." -- Zez-Kai Ell

 

Ulic, for reasons unknown to even himself, willed himself to live. Although he was made blind to the Force he still had his inner strength and determination and that is all that kept him alive at most times.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Jedi Master Dakari

[Dark Moth]

Simple answer: because cutting you off from the force doesn't kill you.

 

No, it doesn't necessarily kill you. However, if you are too weak, unwilling, or too afraid to do so, then it will kill you.

 

"We spend out entire live connected with the Force. And to have it suddenly stripped from you, to picture a life without the Force, it is a frightening thing indeed." -- Zez-Kai Ell

 

Ulic, for reasons unknown to even himself, willed himself to live. Although he was made blind to the Force he still had his inner strength and determination and that is all that kept him alive at most times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well doesn't that sound like a useful trick? So please explain how Kreia in one scene is too weak to stand up to Sion alone and then has the power to kill three Jedi Masters at once? And if the exile wasn't truly cut off from the force, as Master Vrook says, then wouldn't that mean Kreia was wrong in the end?

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"So please explain how Kreia in one scene is too weak to stand up to Sion alone and then has the power to kill three Jedi Masters at once?"

 

Because Malachor V makes you either a Sith or dead. Some would say Sion qualifies for both.