Oblivion megamovie

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Explorer, Social, Killer... and one more that I can't think of this early in the morning...

 

Morrowind is for the Explorer style gamer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What does Killer refer to?

 

I would say that TES also have a solid representation for the "Simulationist" (in the role-playing sense), in somewhat the same way as the GTA games, although less robust in some areas and more in others, and "Fantasist" (sort of a second-order Explorationist, interested in a fantasy history, culture, politics and other intangibles).

 

That's in addition to the more infantile attractions like progression (stat and loot), virtual achievement, virtual importance, etc. that are probably the bulk of what makes the games profitable (...like most of the successful games we historically call RPGs).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually I think it could learn a lot from GTA. GTA is packed with content , and the access to vehicles speeds up the travel time and exploration quite significantly. Perhaps most importantly, it's worth exploring since you can turn up some very interesting things when you go off the beaten track. Lets not forget GTA also has a strong narrative too. Lets be honest the missions in Morrowind are like watching paint dry compared to those in GTA.

 

However the idea that only the TES series has these things is quite frankly laughable. The majority of RPGs I've played have a political structure, history and all those other things usually presented in a far less dry fashion too.

Edited October 8, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Then that is what I did. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whatever floats your boat.

[Guest Fishboot]

However the idea that only the TES series has these things is quite frankly laughable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, by a stroke of luck I never said it was.

 

It disturbs me that you can be confidently dismissive of a genre of which you have no grasp.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, by a stroke of luck I never said it was.

 

It disturbs me that you can be confidently dismissive of a genre of which you have no grasp.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Perhaps you would like to explain the attraction then. Because I think my grasp on it is perfectly aquequete since I've been familiar with the series since Arena.

 

If those things are not confined to the TES series, then they are hardly a selling point are they since you get that plus more robust gameplay and an engaging story in other RPGs.

Edited October 8, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Azarkon]

MMORPGs vs. TES games:

 

I think a fundamental distinction that must and should be made here, SP, is that a MMORPG will be hard-pressed to ever achieve the kind of immersion that you attribute, currently, to FMV-narratives. This is not because it doesn't use FMVs, but because the grand summation of players can never be depended on to roleplay the game as characters in a story might.

 

On the other hand, because TES games depend on AI to populate the world instead of players, they have the capacity to, ultimately, achieve full dynamic immersion. Come a time when advancements in AI allow for the creation of interactive, immersive, and yet non-canned/pre-scripted responses from NPCs, game built on the TES principle will be able to do it whereas a MMORPG will not.

 

Now you may argue that the time for that has not yet come, and that currently TES NPCs suck. And I'd agree, except I think that you're missing the point that this is their *intent*, and that it's this *direction* that they're making advancements in and that it's their holding onto this *direction* that I'm praising them for. The game industry does not automatically adopt the latest AI innovations. Someone in the industry has to go out there and actively attempt to advance the technology of procedural graphics and AI with respect to games, because academics certainly ain't going to do it (at least not yet).

 

This is why what Oblivion could achieve is praiseworthy, why their direction is a triumph of the game industry even if it doesn't produce the kind of immersive, emotional FMV-narratives that you enjoy. Because here they're pursuing the ultimate goal, the grand jewel of interactive immersion, whereas most FMV-narratives are forever bound to cinematic improvements and modifications in gameplay (most of which has to do with combat, item collection, etc., and not with the principles of interactivity).

 

Example: when was the last time Square Enix made any significant change to the way the player character may interact with other characters? When was the last time they made any significant change to the way by which the events of the story responded to the actions of the player?

 

I don't know if I can explain it any better than that.

Edited October 8, 2005 by Azarkon

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

MMORPGs vs. TES games:

 

I think a fundamental distinction that must and should be made here, SP, is that a MMORPG will be hard-pressed to ever achieve the kind of immersion that you attribute, currently, to FMV-narratives.  This is not because it doesn't use FMVs, but because the grand summation of players can never be depended on to roleplay the game as characters in a story might.

 

On the other hand, because TES games depend on AI to populate the world instead of players, they have the capacity to, ultimately, achieve full dynamic immersion.  Come a time when advancements in AI allow for the creation of interactive, immersive, and yet non-canned/pre-scripted responses from NPCs, game built on the TES principle will be able to do it whereas a MMORPG will not.

 

Now you may argue that the time for that has not yet come, and that currently TES NPCs suck.  And I'd agree, except I think that you're missing the point that this is their *intent*, and that it's this *direction* that they're making advancements in and that it's their holding onto this *direction* that I'm praising them for.  The game industry does not automatically adopt the latest AI innovations.  Someone in the industry has to go out there and actively attempt to advance the technology of procedural graphics and AI with respect to games, because academics certainly ain't going to do it (at least not yet).

 

This is why what Oblivion could achieve is praiseworthy, why their direction is a triumph of the game industry even if it doesn't produce the kind of immersive, emotional FMV-narratives that you enjoy.  Because here they're pursuing the ultimate goal, the grand jewel of interactive immersion, whereas most FMV-narratives are forever bound to cinematic improvements and modifications in gameplay (most of which has to do with combat, item collection, etc., and not with the principles of interactivity).

 

Example: when was the last time Square Enix made any significant change to the way the player character may interact with other characters? When was the last time they made any significant change to the way by which the events of the story responded to the actions of the player?

 

I don't know if I can explain it any better than that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That depends entirely on the human factor. I've seen some great narratives in MMPORGs but not in the standard package.

However the leap required for TES to get to what an MMPORG can offer right now is huge.

 

Actually I expect Oblivion to sell less this time around because the type of people who it appeals to will likely be playing MMPORGs with WoW etc. Of course Bethesda's genius as far as the 360 is concered is being the only game in town right now. Personally I wont praise their intent unless there is some solid gameplay on offer and thats somewhere that the whole TES series has really fallen down on , becoming either a case of generic spells or mouse flailing. As I understand they trimmed the skill list even further this time around so your getting even less options.Gameplay is critical to non story games, since it's the only thing that motivates you to play. There is no playing to see the end, even if your not particularly enjoying the game at the time.

 

That would be FFX-2 which was the last one before FFXII.

[Azarkon]

In terms of gameplay, at times I liken TES games to graphical but dumbed down versions of roguelike games (except Daggerfall, which I thought was way ahead of its time). You know, those text-based games with no real narrative that you could yet play for hours on ends because the gameplay was so fun and deep. Unfortunately, those games will never see commercial success in today's industry. As such, I tend to see the TES games' progression towards making the roguelike idea of random/procedural content the next best thing. Even if the folks at Bethesda does not seem to grasp how to create good motivating factors, their technological innovations will no doubt produce a engine that would one day make full dynamic immersion a reality.

 

That's my hope, at any case, and why I would praise Besthesda's goal even if I didn't particuarly enjoy Morrowind either.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I think the series peaked with Daggerfall , if not for the bugs that would have been one awsome game at the time. Even with the bugs it was great. But that was before the MMPORG era too.

 

Actually I wouldnt be suprised to see the next TES as an online game of some sort since they are 90% of the way there.

[Epiphany]

Haha, the guy who's vividly talking about features in a game that's not been released yet and noone has played is actually accusing someone who's using at least something real (experience with Morrowind) as grounds for his statements, for "spouting off at the mouth". Self insight..

 

Epiphany, as usual you have swallowed the entire hype machine surrounding whatever it is you're interested in at the moment and talk about this hype as if it's facts. Newsflash: it's not! It's called HYPING, and you really need to learn the meaning of that word soon, because you're making a fool of yourself everytime you post on these boards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're just being retarded. When countless previews and interviews all say the same things regaurding AI routines, combat, and general interactivity, then everyone that's not some "I have to hate everything" type of person will realize that things have been fixed.

 

Bethesda has yet to actually lie to anyone regarding their Elderscrolls games. They tell people what they're trying to do, and inform everyone if things cannot be done. Since it has been said, that the groundwork for Oblivion is complete, and all content is in game, only bug fixing is left - they have not said "the radiant AI doesn't work anymore" - "the combat is been dumbed down to the level of Morrowind's" - or anything else of that nature.

 

Bethesda doesn't hype their games in the sense of a Peter M with Fable. Nor do they run around claiming greatness and supremacy in their games over all the competition. The only "hype" they've given Oblivion from a subjective point of view, is claiming the graphics engine is "incredible". That's it. There's nothing else they've said that someone hasn't already backed up with impressions from behind closed door areas, to the 20 minute movie that was posted here, or from the developer updates that are posted around the net.

 

You seriously need to learn the difference between HYPE and INFORMATION. Perhaps I make a fool of myself to you, but to the rest of the world, it's called posting information. I can't help the fact that you don't follow news updates, impressions, and developer comments/interviews on games/products your interested in.

 

Grow up and get a clue.

[Epiphany]

Lets be honest the missions in Morrowind are like watching paint dry compared to those in GTA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh but there are people out there that don't like racing/chasing games, or shoot'em ups. Of which, all the GTA missions involve.

 

For me, racing through the same street over and over again in twelve different missions is no more enjoyable than watching paint dry. Running through a landscape looking for mushrooms, while a bit tedious, is far more enjoyable.

 

So yes, lets be honest. The GTA missions are excessively boring compared to many of the Morrowind missions.

[Musopticon?]

lol

 

Whatever you say, bub.

[mkreku]

Bethesda has yet to actually lie to anyone regarding their Elderscrolls games.  They tell people what they're trying to do, and inform everyone if things cannot be done.  Since it has been said, that the groundwork for Oblivion is complete, and all content is in game, only bug fixing is left - they have not said "the radiant AI doesn't work anymore" - "the combat is been dumbed down to the level of Morrowind's" - or anything else of that nature.

No, they don't. Want to know why? Because it is a preview, not a review. The journalists are giving most everything the benefit of a doubt until the developer turns in the finished product. Trust me, I write this stuff myself. There's no point reviewing the game before it is finished. But only a moron would actually swallow the entire load the previews shoots out..

Bethesda doesn't hype their games in the sense of a Peter M with Fable.

Nope. But noone does. Peter Molyneaux is the king of hype. That doesn't stop Bethesda trying to make their product sound better than it actually is. Hype is when you mention you have 3000 unique NPC's but forget to mention they are walking encyclopedia's. That's the difference between information and hype, which you still have to learn.

You seriously need to learn the difference between HYPE and INFORMATION.

Sigh. See above, clueless one.

Perhaps I make a fool of myself to you, but to the rest of the world, it's called posting information.

Maybe we should have a public vote about this? )

I can't help the fact that you don't follow news updates, impressions, and developer comments/interviews on games/products your interested in.

Oh yeah, as a games news journalist I don't follow news updates. I write them.

[Epiphany]

No, they don't. Want to know why? Because it is a preview, not a review. The journalists are giving most everything the benefit of a doubt until the developer turns in the finished product. Trust me, I write this stuff myself. There's no point reviewing the game before it is finished. But only a moron would actually swallow the entire load the previews shoots out..

 

So basically, you're uninformned on everything that is Oblivion. Gotcha.

 

Nope. But noone does. Peter Molyneaux is the king of hype. That doesn't stop Bethesda trying to make their product sound better than it actually is. Hype is when you mention you have 3000 unique NPC's but forget to mention they are walking encyclopedia's. That's the difference between information and hype, which you still have to learn.

 

Which is why the NPC's in Oblivion have more content to them. As proven in all previews/interviews. Hell, they even SHOWCASE it in the 20 minute demo (which is from E3).

 

Maybe we should have a public vote about this? )

 

Yes, a poll here, where all your butt buddies can pool together and vote because you all share the same uninformed opinions. You always love to band together and say "the PS3 will rock" and love to complain when people say negative things about it, but you have nothing to say otherwise.

 

Oh yeah, as a games news journalist I don't follow news updates. I write them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If your rambling here, if evidence of your craptastic journalistic viewpoints, then I'm sure your columns absolutely suck.

[Guest Fishboot]

If those things are not confined to the TES series, then they are hardly a selling point are they since you get that plus more robust gameplay and an engaging story in other RPGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Because things in the world can exist to a degree rather than in an off/on binary state? Because I like the manner and style of the TES implementation of the abstract virtues I stated? Why do you play Final Fantasy games when Infocom games have better stories and Tetris has better gameplay?

 

Honestly, this thread now has ShadowPaladin on one side and Epiphany on the other, so I invite you two to say dullard things at one another.

[Musopticon?]

Yes, a poll here, where all your butt buddies can pool together and vote because you all share the same uninformed opinions.  You always love to band together and say "the PS3 will rock" and love to complain when people say negative things about it, but you have nothing to say otherwise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hah, so you're just bitter. Should've known. So whatever any of us writes, you'll label it as drivel and lies. :D

[Nartwak]

I'm looking forward to the N5.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Because things in the world can exist to a degree rather than in an off/on binary state? Because I like the manner and style of the TES implementation of the abstract virtues I stated? Why do you play Final Fantasy games when Infocom games have better stories and Tetris has better gameplay?

 

Honestly, this thread now has ShadowPaladin on one side and Epiphany on the other, so I invite you two to say dullard things at one another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Does infocom even exist anymore ?

 

Tetris might have decent gameplay for a puzzle game, but not for an RPG.

 

Where do you see the TES series going anyway ? Since I've given my glimse into the future I'd be interested to hear yours.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yes, a poll here, where all your butt buddies can pool together and vote because you all share the same uninformed opinions.  You always love to band together and say "the PS3 will rock" and love to complain when people say negative things about it, but you have nothing to say otherwise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lets see..

 

360's backwards combatibility relies on a HD. MS is shipping units on the cheap without a HD.

 

Ps3 is backwards compatible over 2 generations, clear win for the PS3.

 

The DVD which was forced into the 360 because Toshiba couldnt get its act together in time is obsolete. Developers are already complaining about lack of space and the thing isnt even released yet. And this console is supposed to have a 5 year life span.

 

Blu Ray is new tech and 5-10 times the capacity of a DVD , again win for the PS3 it's far more future proof.

 

The only place where the PS3 falls down is in the price, but when figure in that your getting a Blu Ray which will retail at around $199 anyway it's a bargain.

 

BTW the 360 is about as popular as clamidia in Japan and everyone was in fits of laughter when those developers reported running out of DVD space.

[Darque]

Exploration gamers are better served by MMPORGs anyway since they are ever changing. I'm a bit of an exploration gamer myself but I still think Morrowind is empty and the mechanics are dull. Since that really hasnt changed much since Arena I doubt Oblivion will either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I disagree completely.

 

MMOs do not change at the pace that an Explorer (which I scored extremely high on my bartle's score) can deal with.

 

MMOs are better suited for the Achiever (the type I forgot last night), the socializer and the killer.

 

Achievers since there's always better and better uberloot

Socializers as it's a multiplayer game

and Killers due to PvP.

 

While a huge world can keep an explorer happy for a while... eventually you'll run out of things to see, the same as any single player game.

 

A game like morrowind was made for explorers due to it's sheer size.

 

Those saying it's a single player mmo are probably in need of more social oriented games

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I disagree completely.

 

MMOs do not change at the pace that an Explorer (which I scored extremely high on my bartle's score) can deal with.

 

MMOs are better suited for the Achiever (the type I forgot last night), the socializer and the killer.

 

Achievers since there's always better and better uberloot

Socializers as it's a multiplayer game

and Killers due to PvP.

 

While a huge world can keep an explorer happy for a while... eventually you'll run out of things to see, the same as any single player game.

 

A game like morrowind was made for explorers due to it's sheer size.

 

Those saying it's a single player mmo are probably in need of more social oriented games

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What do you mean ? They dont change quickly enough or they change too quickly ? I played EQ for 2 years and still didnt explore every zone and I quit before they added the last two expansions. The TES games dont change at all, since downloading content you are aware of seems to defeat the purpose of exploration in the first place.

 

That dosnt really make sense, you say that eventually you will run out of new things to see. Yet MMPORGs are always adding new content... Which would make them idealy suited to explorers too.

 

I'd hardly say I'm in need of them, but I have played them pretty extensively and the TES series come across like offline MMPORGs where you are the only real person along with the paper thin characters that pass for NPCs in MMPORGs.

Edited October 8, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[mkreku]

Yes, a poll here, where all your butt buddies can pool together and vote because you all share the same uninformed opinions.  You always love to band together and say "the PS3 will rock" and love to complain when people say negative things about it, but you have nothing to say otherwise.

As usual you have nothing to add and don't have a clue about the things you write. This thread is just another prime example of your ignorance. I'm sure your little world where everything your favourite developers (or Micro$oft) tell you is true would be a wonderful place to live in, but this board reflects the reality, which is why you're such a misfit.

 

We didn't even need a vote, your arrogance and stupidity took care of that rather quickly

[Kaftan Barlast]

Explorer, Social, Killer... and one more that I can't think of this early in the morning...

 

Morrowind is for the Explorer style gamer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What does Killer refer to?

 

 

The 4 (mmorpg)player types According to Richard Bartle;

 

Achievers ( Im level 47 wohoo!)

Explorers ( Did you know theres an easteregg in the..if you..and.. under the..)

Socialisers ( So when is George back from his holiday with his grandpa? )

Killers ( Whoah! I got a critical hit 3 times when fighting those kobolds )

 

 

Take the Bartle test:

http://www.andreasen.org/bartle/

Edited October 9, 2005 by Kaftan Barlast

[Kaftan Barlast]

I think the whole thing is idiotic and overly simplistic but MMORPG designers swear by it. Which is perhaps why MMOs are crap?

[Darque]

I disagree completely.

 

MMOs do not change at the pace that an Explorer (which I scored extremely high on my bartle's score) can deal with.

 

MMOs are better suited for the Achiever (the type I forgot last night), the socializer and the killer.

 

Achievers since there's always better and better uberloot

Socializers as it's a multiplayer game

and Killers due to PvP.

 

While a huge world can keep an explorer happy for a while... eventually you'll run out of things to see, the same as any single player game.

 

A game like morrowind was made for explorers due to it's sheer size.

 

Those saying it's a single player mmo are probably in need of more social oriented games

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What do you mean ? They dont change quickly enough or they change too quickly ? I played EQ for 2 years and still didnt explore every zone and I quit before they added the last two expansions. The TES games dont change at all, since downloading content you are aware of seems to defeat the purpose of exploration in the first place.

 

That dosnt really make sense, you say that eventually you will run out of new things to see. Yet MMPORGs are always adding new content... Which would make them idealy suited to explorers too.

 

I'd hardly say I'm in need of them, but I have played them pretty extensively and the TES series come across like offline MMPORGs where you are the only real person along with the paper thin characters that pass for NPCs in MMPORGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Incorrect.

 

Your EQ example is a poor one, you "need" to level (i.e. follow the achiever route) to see those high end areas.

 

In morrowind you can see the whole game from level 1 (except for a few key location)

 

I get the feeling you're not an explorer type SP, so I don't think it'd be possible to really explain it to you

[Qazplm]

When i played morrowind i found it borring. There is nothing to do in it just running around and leveling in what way is that fun? In mmorpgs there is atleast the social interactions going around betwen the players.