Hurricane!

[Lucius]

...like a very large Belgium or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now there's a frightening thought.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Was that a low blow?

[kumquatq3]

Now now, as much as I know you'd like to turn my own arguments against me , you did in fact mention "Europe" first as seen here,

 

Wait, just because I referenced Europe in the past, does not mean that all my comments are now secretly about Europe no matter what I say.

 

Besides, My reference to Europe in that link is correct. I didn't say the people of Europe are all idoits or they all like Fish n' Chips or something. I said Europe, as a whole, is also prone to racial problems. Which is true in many a sense, but most true if you look at it simply from a area of land. Denmark is apparently no exception.

 

In Demark, I'd only need to go back to a 2002 U.N. report about thier visit to Denmark:

 

In March the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination expressed concern about a reported increase in hate speech and in the harassment of members of the Arab and Muslim communities; the tightening of asylum and refugee regulations; and reports of the failure of the authorities to recognize the Inughuit community as a separate ethnic or tribal entity.

 

In May the UN Committee against Torture reiterated its concern that torture was not defined as an offence in Danish law and that convicted prisoners were denied effective mechanisms to challenge the use of solitary confinement.

 

It goes in to specific incidents.

 

Point being, if you take exception to that statement, show me the Euro country that doesn't have things like this. Otherwise my comment is 100% correct.

 

and I used it only to show you that this continent is as big as, and in my opinion more diverse than the US,

 

But when I reference that diversity (as a whole) you tell me I can't fairly do that.

 

which then leads me back to the initial point of my argument that "we" are not a single nations such as you, and how citizens of a different European nation behave after or during a football match really has nothing to do with me. I know you said that this wasn't what you meant, but this was how I understood your response at any rate. 

 

Fair enough, but I think it's worth noting that European countries do heavily influence each other, so much so that many countries actively try to preserve their culture.

 

Who is Joe? And why is he more important than me? 

 

He is an American, thats why.

 

I'M KIDDING!!!!!

 

It was a popular cartoon and action figure.

 

I know that most are good people, it's just so absurd to watch these gangs lurk in the streets and seeing these poor desperate people loot stuff in order to survive when the government is too slow to respond.

 

Very much agree, but it's not due to social decay, at least not in the traditional sense. Their city was wiped of the map. They went from having jobs to trying to find clean water.

 

Together with what Eldar wrote on this subject, I just want to say: Social Democracy; the distance between "poor" and "rich" is a lot shorter, the welfare state has its flaws (such as very high taxes), but there are far more good sides than bad in my biased opinion, however I don't know if such a government type could work in a nation as big as the US.

 

It could or it couldn't. The economy wouldn't be what it is now tho. Things like 9/11 or the Hurricane couldn't have been "shrugged off" as quickly as they were. Which is not only important in terms of recovering from these events, but our economic reaction to these things is vital to the world economic health.

 

Other things might work, but capitalism (with things like welfare) seems to work pretty well in the long run.

 

but your right, size has alot to due with what will or won't work, imo

 

Just how you like it

 

rough?

[kumquatq3]

I'm not suggesting it isn't a functional nation. I'm just saying it is far less homogenised than we give them credit for.

 

Which is either celebrated, like generally in big cities, or not so much (as in many smaller towns).

 

Diversity works well if it's welcomed. mostly.

[Walsingham]

I think Kumquat is winning me over. [i never thought I'd say THAT]

 

The conclusion of a 1984 study in the UK (Operation Brave Defender) was that after about three days of the breakdown of civil order people would do what we've seen in NO.

 

However, I do think that we are seeing a division between particularly the cops and these people. The reports by the BBCs guys on the ground was that the cops dropped off food and water at gunpoint and threatened people who asked them questions. I would argue this is because a lot of people in the US regard poor people as having mainly themselves to blame. therefore there was a lack of stored goodwill to fall back on when things got hairy.

[kumquatq3]

I would argue this is because a lot of people in the US regard poor people as having mainly themselves to blame. therefore there was a lack of stored goodwill to fall back on when things got hairy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No question bad things happened because of racial issues. No question. I'm not sold on the "I don't like poor people" issue tho.

 

As far as the cops go, you have to rememeber that these people just lost Houses/freinds/family too. Think of being asked to do your job if you don't know if your mother is alive or even your wife or kids. Not knowing if your house is still there. 2 cops shot themselves and many just walked away. Those that stayed had to face random people shooting at them, and even more people arming themselves to protect themselves from the "bad" people.

 

Not an ideal senerio

 

If the ones that stayed were grumpy or short with people, I can understand that.

 

Remember, it's not like cops are millionares themselves

 

I think Kumquat is winning me over. [i never thought I'd say THAT]

 

When did I become the evil american?

[Lucius]

Wait, just because I referenced Europe in the past, does not mean that all my comments are now secretly about Europe no matter what I say. 

Well you started using the "E" word, and I continued not giving it more thought.

 

Besides, My reference to Europe in that link is correct. I didn't say the people of Europe are all idoits or they all like Fish n' Chips or something. I said Europe, as a whole, is also prone to racial problems. Which is true in many a sense, but most true if you look at it simply from a area of land. Denmark is apparently no exception.

 

In Demark, I'd only need to go back to a 2002 U.N. report about thier visit to Denmark:

 

In March the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination expressed concern about a reported increase in hate speech and in the harassment of members of the Arab and Muslim communities; the tightening of asylum and refugee regulations; and reports of the failure of the authorities to recognize the Inughuit community as a separate ethnic or tribal entity.

 

In May the UN Committee against Torture reiterated its concern that torture was not defined as an offence in Danish law and that convicted prisoners were denied effective mechanisms to challenge the use of solitary confinement.

 

It goes in to specific incidents.

It's no secret that Denmark had a large portion of arab immigrants during the 90'ies, and some groups of these (a minority) caused a lot of trouble. I went to school while this was going on, and I've had my share of uncomfortable encounters (although never assaulted), then in the elections of 2000 a socialist right wing party (sounds contractionary, I know) grew to become the third largest party in parliament, as the Danes had grown tired of immigration and integration problems, they are still the supporting party of the sitting center-right wing government.

I voted for this party myself, and neither the EU nor the UN liked that we the people had elected a government supported by such a party, they obviously didn't like that the party knew how to speak its mind about the previous governments failure at limiting immigration and improving integration. The UN call it "hate speech", I call it a wake up call, and even though the tone was harsh at first the message has come through on both sides of the political center, I didn't voted for them in the last election half a year ago, since the situation has improved a lot now, I didn't find it critical anymore. Needless to say the UN and EU appears to have given up trying to force our population to think otherwise.

 

As for the torture committees findings, we have a very professional police force, something which the state takes pride in. The only place we've come close to "torture" was when an interrogation officer in Iraq said some harsh things to a captive arab.

However they are probably right about the law, but that doesn't mean that our police force tortures people just because there's a gab in the codex, it's competely unheard off! Solidary confinement is used as a punishment as in other nations, but the long hauls (which I think they're questioning here) are there to keep dope dealing criminals from obstructing justice, we have something called "Zero Tolerance" towards dope dealers in the capital.

I do however, remember a video of some southern US police force beating the crap outta some black dude lying on the street, and these police folks got acquitted, which caused a riot. Now that is torture. I wonder if the UN took its precious time to actually look into that? Can you remember this exact story? I don't think it was that long ago.

 

Point being, if you take exception to that statement, show me the Euro country that doesn't have things like this. Otherwise my comment is 100% correct.

I can't do that, but neither can you show me a place where I've said that European nations are without problems of their own, however I don't think that any Euro nation, large or small, has as much crime as the US. Police forces here, in Scandinavia at least, are also a lot less prone to shoot, but again this is related to the whole "right to carry guns" issue. "We" don't have that right, nor do we want to have it (most of us anyway).

 

Fair enough, but I think it's worth noting that European countries do heavily influence each other, so much so that many countries actively try to preserve their culture.

Depends on where you're living, if you're living on the border then yes you get influenced quite heavily by the neighbour, however the guy living in central Germany is still a lot different from the guy living in Paris. Even though the nations share borders. Here, I can see Sweden from my window, but a strait seperates us, I can tune in to their TV channels if I want to, but I really don't feel like they influence me. (though we might be so much alike in the first place that it's difficult to absorb more influence. However I loathe their hairstyles) "

 

 

I'M KIDDING!!!!!

Me too.

 

Very much agree, but it's not due to social decay, at least not in the traditional sense. Their city was wiped of the map. They went from having jobs to trying to find clean water.

Probably, I'm just trying to find some sense in a disaster such as this, with inept government response and just an endless tide of black people standing around waiting to get rescued. Not to mention that in almost every picture or clip, you see someone with a gun, be they civilians, police or military.

 

It could or it couldn't. The economy wouldn't be what it is now tho. Things like 9/11 or the Hurricane couldn't have been "shrugged off" as quickly as they were. Which is not only important in terms of recovering from these events, but our economic reaction to these things is vital to the world economic health.

Well from what I understand we still don't know the full impact of the destruction by the hurricane, but you probably know more about this than me.

 

Other things might work, but capitalism (with things like welfare) seems to work pretty well in the long run.

I though that "welfare" was a nono in the US, a "welfare state" here includes things like free medical care and free education, you have that in some places? Or is it 'simply' the unemployment check kinda welfare?

 

rough? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possibly.

[kumquatq3]

It's no secret that Denmark had a large portion of arab immigrants during the 90'ies, and some groups of these (a minority) caused a lot of trouble.....

 

Fair enough. I'm not one to automatically agree with what the U.N. thinks, but the point remains that most places have some level of these type of "incidents".

 

Can you remember this exact story? I don't think it was that long ago.

 

Frankly, No. Not sure that even got much press here.

 

I don't think that any Euro nation, large or small, has as much crime as the US. Police forces here, in Scandinavia at least, are also a lot less prone to shoot, but again this is related to the whole "right to carry guns" issue. "We" don't have that right, nor do we want to have it (most of us anyway)

 

actually, studies in the US have shown that when you allow citizens to care concealed firearms ( you can in a few states in the US, with a permit) that crime dramatically drops off.

 

BTW, I'm having trouble finding Euro crime rates, but in 2000 the US had "506.1" acts of violent crime per 100,000 people. So, less than .006% of the population expirence violent crime.

 

Probably, I'm just trying to find some sense in a disaster such as this, with inept government response and just an endless tide of black people standing around waiting to get rescued.

 

The city has a large black population. 67.3%. Most people there are black

 

Well from what I understand we still don't know the full impact of the destruction by the hurricane, but you probably know more about this than me.

 

Well not entirely, but the markets didn't crash and we essentially lost the use of a major port and a major city.

 

Or is it 'simply' the unemployment check kinda welfare?

 

Mostly. Tho education, if you can't pay, is provided.

 

Possibly. 

 

[Walsingham]

Kumquat: I simply meant I never thought I'd say I agreed with a kumquat (the fruit). I should have been clearer.

 

I'm not clear on the idea that you believe it could be racial but not economic discrimination. I find the latter more common in humans in general. I'm not sayinga lot of folks aren't racist, its just more folks are snobs.

 

I've aired my views on the cops before. I can empthise with them being cranky, but if you put on any kind of uniform and swear to protect peope, that's what you bloody well do. If you get compassionate about that and allow people to avoid their duty because they're stressed you make things worse. If one guy dodges out then everyone starts looking for ways to do it. Maybe some of the military chaps here who've seen action will back me up.

[Calax]

Thought you might like this, It's the Mayor of New Orleans talking to CNN about what's really going on.

http://us.cnn.com/video/player/player.html...nagin.intv.affl

Dang, It's a long file but you will love it. and the mayor is a bit of a profane person.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Calax

[kumquatq3]

If one guy dodges out then everyone starts looking for ways to do it. Maybe some of the military chaps here who've seen action will back me up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In a ideal world, I agree.

 

but can you image having to try to stop looting the same day your wife or kids died

[Walsingham]

If one guy dodges out then everyone starts looking for ways to do it. Maybe some of the military chaps here who've seen action will back me up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In a ideal world, I agree.

 

but can you image having to try to stop looting the same day your wife or kids died

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I admire your compassion. To omany people would not see this at all. But the fact is that men and women from all services do manage to cope with things like this and do their duty. We rely on them doing this to help us in crises. And as I say you have to be harsh to maintain discipline in such crises. In short exercise every degree of compassion, within the bounds of them doing their duty effectively.

 

You would not appreciate it if your squadmates on the battlefield decided not to fight 'because people were shooting at them'.

[kumquatq3]

I admire your compassion. To omany people would not see this at all. But the fact is that men and women from all services do manage to cope with things like this and do their duty. We rely on them doing this to help us in crises. And as I say you have to be harsh to maintain discipline in such crises. In short exercise every degree of compassion, within the bounds of them doing their duty effectively.

 

In the military, you can often return home for awhile if your mother is sick or if someone passes.

 

You would not appreciate it if your squadmates on the battlefield decided not to fight 'because people were shooting at them'.

 

You agree to put your own life on the line, not your families.

 

My position is this: I think things would have been better if all officers were handing out sandwiches & smiles and did their job regardless of their own situation.

 

But I don't fault those that walked away due to family issues.

 

 

 

BTW, on topic, it is worth noting that the US is not even passed the peek of hurricane season.

[Lucius]

Well I think we've pretty much covered it, I'd like to see more about the concealed gun statistic you mentioned, I've never even heard of that before.

I'll see if I can find any Euro crime stats later tonight, but I'm somewhat busy now. (hence the short response)

[kumquatq3]

I just saw on the sweet sweet TV that 80% of the New Orleans police force is now homeless. 500 officers are unaccounted for (dead, missing, or just ran off). On top of that, 200 were have said to have quit.

 

No idea how many are left, but:

 

The police cheif compared his men to the "300 at Thermypolae".

[Walsingham]

I forgot to say earlier that I think a good leader would recognise teh strain and do everything in his or her power to reasssure the officers about their families, I am just saying that irrespective of that one has a duty to discipline and sticking to the job under such circumstances.

[Commissar]

Unfreakin'believable:

 

http://www.fungod.com/coppermine/displayim...album=19&pos=83

[kumquatq3]

Unfreakin'believable:

 

http://www.fungod.com/coppermine/displayim...album=19&pos=83

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

In fairness, the cops may have been getting supplies for themselves or for people.

 

After all, 80% of the cops are homeless

 

 

 

The kid with the pink shirt tho

[Commissar]

Unfreakin'believable:

 

http://www.fungod.com/coppermine/displayim...album=19&pos=83

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

In fairness, the cops may have been getting supplies for themselves or for people.

 

After all, 80% of the cops are homeless

 

 

 

The kid with the pink shirt tho

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shoes?

[Kor Qel Droma]

I think that news reporter should quit being so dismayed with the anarchy and help out instead.

[Commissar]

I think that news reporter should quit being so dismayed with the anarchy and help out instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

 

I also think that the war correspondents in Iraq ought to put down the mic and grab a rifle. Nothing like untrained people in a crisis situation.

[Kor Qel Droma]

Holy Geraldo, Batman!!

[Walsingham]

I think that news reporter should quit being so dismayed with the anarchy and help out instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

 

I also think that the war correspondents in Iraq ought to put down the mic and grab a rifle. Nothing like untrained people in a crisis situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

* Walsingham draws his side-arm and shouts "Hell Yeah!"*

[Lucius]

I think that news reporter should quit being so dismayed with the anarchy and help out instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

 

I also think that the war correspondents in Iraq ought to put down the mic and grab a rifle. Nothing like untrained people in a crisis situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I remember seeing a program in which some news guys said that if all the journalists had been armed with guns at Tora Bora in Afghanistan, Osama would have been dead or captured by now. There were more reporters than US soldiers around that mountain. (according to them anyway)

[Walsingham]

I think that news reporter should quit being so dismayed with the anarchy and help out instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

 

I also think that the war correspondents in Iraq ought to put down the mic and grab a rifle. Nothing like untrained people in a crisis situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I remember seeing a program in which some news guys said that if all the journalists had been armed with guns at Tora Bora in Afghanistan, Osama would have been dead or captured by now. There were more reporters than US soldiers around that mountain. (according to them anyway)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldn't want most reporters to be armed. war is dangerous enough without drunken egomaniacs of suspicious intellect being set loose.

[Lucius]

They also explained how the local northern alliance warlords, whom the US thought to be on their side, had been bribed at a meeting with Osama to hinder the US advance up the mountain. He simply gave them an envolope each filled with cash and their loyalty was his... With friends like these, and way too few US troops on the ground, I mean, it's no wonder he escaped.

He probably rode off into the sunset on some doped up camel.