Gaza Strip

[EnderAndrew]

What?

 

You missed the fact that Sien Fein leaders always been admited to the Whit House until recently?

 

And I would suggest you read a bit over Irland independence ...

Sien Fein and the IRA are two brothers. I do not judge one brother for the actions of the other. Sien Fein preaches peace and diplomacy. The IRA does not.

[213374U]

You want me to go over african nations that also have zero historical claim (since they never existed as  state) gained independence?

Is that an example to follow? How many traditional tribal conflicts have evolved into full-blown wars because of hasty and ill-planified de-colonisation?

[Commissar]

What?

 

You missed the fact that Sien Fein leaders always been admited to the Whit House until recently?

 

And I would suggest you read a bit over Irland independence ...

Sien Fein and the IRA are two brothers. I do not judge one brother for the actions of the other. Sien Fein preaches peace and diplomacy. The IRA does not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Palestinian Authority, Hamas.

[EnderAndrew]

You want me to go over african nations that also have zero historical claim (since they never existed as  state) gained independence?

You missed it.

 

The arguement is that Israel "illegally" obtained the Gaza Strip 50/60 years ago, and the UN is just now deciding that it is illegal.

 

Convienent that?

[Drakron]

Sien Fein and the IRA are two brothers.  I do not judge one brother for the actions of the other.  Sien Fein preaches peace and diplomacy.  The IRA does not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

WTF?

 

THE POLITICAL ARM OF THE IRA cannot be judged as the IRA?

 

Again, go read.

 

(BTW Bush refused to meet with Sien Fein representatives recently ... I guess peace is not in his agenda for Ulster then)

[Drakron]

Is that an example to follow? How many traditional tribal conflicts have evolved into full-blown wars because of hasty and ill-planified de-colonisation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats not the point.

 

The point is that lands was granted to the majority of its population and made independent countries were such countries did not previous existed and that was because the majority of the population desired independence.

[Drakron]

The arguement is that Israel "illegally" obtained the Gaza Strip 50/60 years ago, and the UN is just now deciding that it is illegal.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is a security council resolution that states Israel must abandon those areas, Israel did not "obtained", they military occupied those areas but AGAIN they make no claim such areas being now part of Israel.

 

That is what you keep missing, acording to Israel such areas DO NOT belong to the state of Israel.

[213374U]

Thats not the point.

 

The point is that lands was granted to the majority of its population and made independent countries were such countries did not previous existed and that was because the majority of the population desired independence.

Huh? How is your proposal of repeating a course of action that has proven to be less than optimal not the point?

 

Really, it's not as simple as going there and planting a flag, you know.

[EnderAndrew]

There is a security council resolution that states Israel must abandon those areas, Israel did not "obtained", they military occupied those areas but AGAIN they make no claim such areas being now part of Israel.

Spellmar frowns upon you.

That is what you keep missing, acording to Israel such areas DO NOT belong to the state of Israel.

Really? What history books are you reading?

 

If Israel didn't claim them, they would still be part of Egypt today.

[LoneWolf16]

How.......how is this thread still going?

 

All of this has been discussed...and no headway has been made by either side. It's obvious you guys aren't going to come to an agreement about this, and it just keeps dragging on, with the same points being made...repeatedly, in what seems to be an attempt to do nothing more than wear down the opponent.

 

Or are you just going for a forum record?

 

 

 

If so...god speed.

[213374U]

You are welcome not to participate.

[EnderAndrew]

I wonder what the forum record is for a heated political debate with no warnings, deleted posts, or thread closings?

 

Commisar asked for a political debate and he got one. Those that enjoy political debates will read them and post in them.

 

So I think it is safe to continue.

[LoneWolf16]

You are welcome not to participate. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where's the fun in that? "

[Colrom]

Just to set the record straight.

 

Japan attacked us on December 7.

 

We declared war on Japan on December 8.

 

Germany declared war on us on December 11.

 

That is how we found ourselves at war with Germany.

 

There has been alot of effort lately to re-write history to portray America as making a choice to go to war against Germany to free the Jews and the French and others from the tyranny of the Fascists. Hurrah!

 

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

Most Americas were reluctant to fight the Germans.

 

But they had no choice after Germany acted on December 11.

 

Just to set the record straight.

[Drakron]

Why did Japan bomber Pear Harbor?

 

The reason was the oil embargo, Japan had no choice ... either they would comply or seize oil sources, considering that Japan belived they had to abandon Manchuria to comply.

 

Make no error that Japan was pushed into the war to serve their needs, then again make no mistake that America was right with the oil embargo.

 

Japan make their choice but its not like america had no hand in Japan choices.

 

Also make no mistaken that the US Navy had many times step out of its way to engage german U-Boats.

 

They are revising history, they are telling history as how it happened (and yes, there are a ton of documents supporting the claims historians are making).

[Commissar]

I wonder what the forum record is for a heated political debate with no warnings, deleted posts, or thread closings?

 

Commisar asked for a political debate and he got one.  Those that enjoy political debates will read them and post in them.

 

So I think it is safe to continue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There've been warnings. The numbers guy did tell me to go have sexual relations with myself, after all.

 

High-minded debate, indeed.

[Cantousent]

Now now, Commissar, this isn't a flame fest. I think some folks have gotten a bit rowdy from time to time, but this isn't exactly a foaming at the mouth debate. I'm surprised that it's been going so well.

 

In fact, I have hopes that this thread will reach the thread length hall of fame and be closed for length rather than spam or flaming.

 

I haven't had a chance to read everything yet today, but I'll read it all, as I do every thread in WoT. Hopefully it's been as reasoned a debate as I've seen thus far, even with my numbered friend giving you explicit instrunctions on how to handle your personal time. Then we can close this one and open part two.

 

As for what I have read so far today, I thought the Simpsons reference was clever, but the "holier than thou" charge is just flat. After all, if I were being holier than thou, then meta was donning the vestments right along with me. In fact, I think you've engaged in a little holy rolling of a different sort yourself. Just a quick thought before I go back to read the rest of the thread.

[Commissar]

Now now, Commissar, this isn't a flame fest.  I think some folks have gotten a bit rowdy from time to time, but this isn't exactly a foaming at the mouth debate.  I'm surprised that it's been going so well.

 

In fact, I have hopes that this thread will reach the thread length hall of fame and be closed for length rather than spam or flaming.

 

I haven't had a chance to read everything yet today, but I'll read it all, as I do every thread in WoT.  Hopefully it's been as reasoned a debate as I've seen thus far, even with my numbered friend giving you explicit instrunctions on how to handle your personal time.  Then we can close this one and open part two.

 

As for what I have read so far today, I thought the Simpsons reference was clever, but the "holier than thou" charge is just flat.  After all, if I were being holier than thou, then meta was donning the vestments right along with me.  In fact, I think you've engaged in a little holy rolling of a different sort yourself.  Just a quick thought before I go back to read the rest of the thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

C'mon, I can't be both some kind of terrorist sympathizer, one step away from turning some C-4 into a jockstrap, and a holy roller at the same time.

[Cantousent]

okay, you got me on that one.

[metadigital]

I say make Palestine a state whether or whether not they harbor terrorists.

 

And then we treat them like any other nation which openly supports terrorism.  Let's see how much longer the Palestinian authorities continue to support Hamas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm down with that.

[metadigital]

...

Have you ever tried negotiating with a zealot? ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"

...

Someone once said the definition on insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.  Given that definition, it is insane to expect Hamas will suddenly act completely in contradiction to their nature.

 

Logic really doesn't support the pro-Palestinian arguement here at all.  I have yet to see a single logical arguement here at all really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hamas can only be controlled by the Palestinians. By taking away the kindling that gives their fire fuel. If there is a Palestine, then the extremists in Hamas can be isolated by the Palestinians.

 

The harder Israel leans on the people of Palestine, the angrier they get, and the more recruits to their cause.

 

If there is a Palestinian voice that is trident about peace, those who tire of war have a beacon to rally behind.

Knock off WW II pacific theater of operations or I end up writting 10 pages over the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagazaki and I dont think any of us want that ...

 

Let me put this in very simple terms, if after 50 years historians (not conspiracy crackpots) cannot reach a conclusion over the reasons and need to use atom bombs in Japan none of us can, its a VERY complex issue that simply enough we will never know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm alive today largely because they did, so I don't need quite so much convincing.

...

On the states issue, why do anything half way?  Either fully segregate now to totally end the violence, or don't.  Creating 9,000 victims doesn't do anything postive.  If you're trying to get them to share the nation in peace, then do that.

 

But we're saying they can't live in peace and must be segregated here, but not on a large scale.

 

It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

I dare someone to make a logical arguement how this makes sense.  That was the original point of this thread and I'd like people to get on topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You keep quoting the extremist Hamas viewpoint as if it is the entire Palestinian population's; it isn't. There are plenty of Jewish extremists, too, calling for the total genocide of all Arabs, with the justification for genocide being (they want to kill all of us".

 

It is a very complex issue. I believe that this Gaza withdrawal, overseen by the Israeli government, is the next step in the long walk to peaceful co-existence.

 

At the very least it gives Israel a bargaining chip in further negotiations; goodwill invested now may be the difference later.

 

What is truly missing is a stateman of the calibre of Mikhail Gorbachov; unfortunately men like he come around far too infrequently.

What?

 

You missed the fact that Sien Fein leaders always been admited to the Whit House until recently?

 

And I would suggest you read a bit over Irland independence ...

Sien Fein and the IRA are two brothers. I do not judge one brother for the actions of the other. Sien Fein preaches peace and diplomacy. The IRA does not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Palestinian Authority, Hamas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gerry Adams is a member of the IRA Council. So the leader of Sinn F

[213374U]

You keep quoting the extremist Hamas viewpoint as if it is the entire Palestinian population's; it isn't. There are plenty of Jewish extremists, too, calling for the total genocide of all Arabs, with the justification for genocide being (they want to kill all of us".

It doesn't matter if one is not a terrorist himself. If one harbors, supports, or simply doesn't act against them, they are as guilty of their acts as the terrorists themselves. That is the problem with the Palestinians.

 

 

What is truly missing is a stateman of the calibre of Mikhail Gorbachov; unfortunately men like he come around far too infrequently.

Well, I'm not sure I'd like another Gorbachov taking care of this situation. You know, messing everything up with unrealistic plans, and then leaving the clean up of his mess to others in the next decades is not quite what I would call "a recipe for success".

 

Also, isn't it easier to make a single post with multiple quotes and rebuttals?

[Commissar]

It doesn't matter if one is not a terrorist himself. If one harbors, supports, or simply doesn't act against them, they are as guilty of their acts as the terrorists themselves. That is the problem with the Palestinians.

No Palestinian is going to take the side of the Israeli government over Hamas. Hamas is fighting for the Palestinians, whereas the Israelis haven't exactly helped them out much. For now, Hamas seems more beneficial to have around than not. Once they get a state of their own, hopefully they'll put Hamas under wraps.

 

And I'm assuming that above quote was referring only to the Palestinian situation...I know plenty of Merkins who haven't shot any terrorists recently.

[metadigital]

You keep quoting the extremist Hamas viewpoint as if it is the entire Palestinian population's; it isn't. There are plenty of Jewish extremists, too, calling for the total genocide of all Arabs, with the justification for genocide being (they want to kill all of us".

It doesn't matter if one is not a terrorist himself. If one harbors, supports, or simply doesn't act against them, they are as guilty of their acts as the terrorists themselves. That is the problem with the Palestinians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. But at the moment there is little political will to fast-track a state of Palestine.

 

I think a lot of people underestimate how good Palestine can be for the region. Palestinian culture is a lot more moderate than most of the Arab states, e.g. women are higher educated on average. This is one reason why the Palestinians are so oppressed: it is useful for the other Arab states to have them there ...

What is truly missing is a stateman of the calibre of Mikhail Gorbachov; unfortunately men like he come around far too infrequently.

Well, I'm not sure I'd like another Gorbachov taking care of this situation. You know, messing everything up with unrealistic plans, and then leaving the clean up of his mess to others in the next decades is not quite what I would call "a recipe for success".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, he may not have fixed everything perfectly, but he did have the last bit of the KGB trying to remove him ... also, I was lauding his initiative as a statesman, i.e. recognising and effecting an opportunity to step back from "three minutes to midnight".

Also, isn't it easier to make a single post with multiple quotes and rebuttals?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely.

[213374U]

No Palestinian is going to take the side of the Israeli government over Hamas.  Hamas is fighting for the Palestinians, whereas the Israelis haven't exactly helped them out much.

If you side with a murderer, you'll get what's due to you.

 

 

For now, Hamas seems more beneficial to have around than not.  Once they get a state of their own, hopefully they'll put Hamas under wraps.

Oh, yes. Hamas is really beneficial to have around. It's not like they prompt the Israeli to retaliate in the form of bulldozing buildings or launching missiles. Yeah, everyone knows they'd do it anyway. Killing Palestinians is the Israeli national sport, you know.

 

But none of that matters, because once they have a state of their own, somebody will wave their magic wand, and then *poof*, those terrorists that only know hatred and whose way of life is causing grief to others will all instantly become productive members of society. Yes, of course. May I recommend you up your medication?

 

 

And I'm assuming that above quote was referring only to the Palestinian situation...I know plenty of Merkins who haven't shot any terrorists recently. 

They'll have a cruise missile heading their way in no time, mark my words.

 

 

This is one reason why the Palestinians are so oppressed: it is useful for the other Arab states to have them there ...

Bingo.

 

 

Sure, he may not have fixed everything perfectly, but he did have the last bit of the KGB trying to remove him ... also, I was lauding his initiative as a statesman, i.e. recognising and effecting an opportunity to step back from "three minutes to midnight".

Yeah, well. I'm not going to question his ability to keep his head on his shoulders in that snake pit, or his skill to appear as a great man to both the west and his own people. But his value as a manager... ahem.