This game is average

[Laozi]

To me its just an expansion.

 

SUW

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, usually with an expansion, you don't get a whole lot of moaning and bitching about a year long dev. cycle.

[Jediphile]

I think a lot of the criticisms so far mentioned about K2 have been well founded.  I think the principle problem with the game is in the core philosphical theme behind it.  That theme is nihilism (nothingness; no moral truths).  It's not a feel good philosophy and most people don't like supporting it.  I would't willingly seek out a study in nihilism when looking for an enjoyable game.  Basing a game on nothing just doesn't work.  People leave the game feeling unsatisfied from the experience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't leave the game feeling unsatisfied because the game had dark or nihilistic content - I left feeling unsatisfied because huge parts of the plot were brutally and mercilessly cut and left us with a game that took a huge left turn as soon as you got closer to the end.

 

It's not the plot or the writing that's the problem in K2 IMHO, because I actually like the story. The problem is that it was rushed and they didn't get to finish it, so we're left with a story that gets cut short *exactly* at the point where it is supposed to reveal its secrets and unmask its villains. On the first playthrough I just wondered if I'd missed something, because I didn't get what was going on. And you sense how it was all cut even when you meet the masters - they rush through the whole thing instead of gradually building to the revelation you're faced. The result is just bad storytelling.

 

But it's quite true that there are other problems. The AI is indeed woefully bad, and the influence system, while a novel invention, is too simplistic (why does Handmaiden criticize me and lose influence when I do bad things, when she herself had DS mastery, for example?). The random loot system doesn't work as well as intended, either...

 

But these things I can overlook as long as they don't stop the game. I don't play for combat - if I did I might just as well play some Diablo II or whatever online. KotOR games I play to see what happens next in the story. It's worse with bugs that crash my system on occasion...

[Jediphile]

I don't see how you can advocate that the central theme of K2 was nihilism.

 

Sure, it was a pretty ambivalent story, presumeably because they had to allow for both LS and DS progression (and the writers were lazy or stymied), but I don't see a victory for nihilism: quite the opposite, Kreia and her determination to carry out Zarathustra's observation were thawted by the Exile; the Force wins! The Force is not nihilism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't see it quite that way. Kreia's goal wasn't so much to prove nihilism as it was to prove that the force could be defied and even wounded. Kreia threatened the force, and since the will of the force dictated the Exile to fall to the dark side, Kreia's triumph lies in letting the Exile become the savior of the force by saving it from her. And the fact that he does proves her point, because if she was wrong, then there would be no need for the Exile to stop her in the first place. Kreia's didn't want to destroy the force, she just wanted to prove her point, and she did.

 

Sure, maybe Darkside protagonists are hedonistic, but this isn't the central theme. After all, according to lore, DS characters die a permanent death, whereas LS realise everlasting life (albeit as a blue ghost ...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How about Marka Ragnos, who appears as an evil force ghost in Jedi Academy some 5000+ years after his death?

[Dark Moth]

I don't see it quite that way. Kreia's goal wasn't so much to prove nihilism as it was to prove that the force could be defied and even wounded. Kreia threatened the force, and since the will of the force dictated the Exile to fall to the dark side, Kreia's triumph lies in letting the Exile become the savior of the force by saving it from her. And the fact that he does proves her point, because if she was wrong, then there would be no need for the Exile to stop her in the first place. Kreia's didn't want to destroy the force, she just wanted to prove her point, and she did.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How can you say the force wanted the exile to fall to the darkside? And I'm not sure if saving the force was a 'triumph' of her. And I don't see how you can't say she didn't want to kill the force. That contradicts everything we saw in the game. Of course she wanted to kill the force. And it's not as if we didn't know the force could be deifed. It's happened before (Anakin Skywalker), and we have no way of knowing if the events of K2 'defied' the will of the force anyway.

 

Another contradiction of Kreia is that she claims that they were all puppets of the force, yet went on to say that the choices Revan made were all his own. If the force wrote our destinies, how would we make our own choices? And you can't say Revan was intentionally 'defying' the force. Revan doesn't know the force's will, not even Kreia. Don't forget, Kreia was dillusional with the force, mostly due to her own failings and betrayal.

 

And I'm not sure if Kreia was even correct that the exile survived without the force. Remember what the Jedi Masters said: "You weren't cut off from the force, you were merely deafened to it." Perhaps the force didn't abandon the exile, he just couldn't feel it because he had to cut off his connection or risk dying.

[Gromnir]

"I think a lot of the criticisms so far mentioned about K2 have been well founded. I think the principle problem with the game is in the core philosphical theme behind it. That theme is nihilism (nothingness; no moral truths). It's not a feel good philosophy and most people don't like supporting it. I would't willingly seek out a study in nihilism when looking for an enjoyable game. Basing a game on nothing just doesn't work. People leave the game feeling unsatisfied from the experience."

 

your take on kotor2 seems a bit... shallow. in any event, we thinks that robert e. howard and the first conan movie and numerous recent fantasy novels has been quite successful BECAUSE of their worship at the altar o' nietzsche. frank miller is having a bit o' a renaissance too, no? The Dark Knight Returns crpg style? yum. matthew woodring stover and steven erikson is just a couple o' the newer fantasy/sci-fi authors that has embraced howard's legacy as 'posed the tolkienesque stuff that has been recycled so often over the past 6 decades, and while their works is hardly perfect, they has sold... very well. am not sure, but we thinks stover has actually done a star wars novelization.

 

the hero who determines his own fate... what can be more optimistic than that?

 

 

[Jediphile]

How can you say the force wanted the exile to fall to the darkside?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Because that was the fate he resisted at Malachor V.

 

And I'm not sure if saving the force was a 'triumph' of her.  And I don't see how you can't say she didn't want to kill the force.  That contradicts everything we saw in the game.  Of course she wanted to kill the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't agree. If there is one thing consistent about Kreia throughout the game, then it's that she cares more about being right in her theories and teachings than anything. She constantly wants the Exile to listen to her advice, but she has problem being threatened or used as long as the Exile does so. Kreia was exiled by the jedi, because they her teachings as misguided, flawed and corrupting. If Kreia wanted to kill the force, then why did she wait around on Malachor V for the Exile to stop her? Because her intention wasn't to actually kill the force as much as being confirmed in her theories and teachings and proving that the jedi were wrong about her.

 

And it's not as if we didn't know the force could be deifed.  It's happened before (Anakin Skywalker), and we have no way of knowing if the events of K2 'defied' the will of the force anyway. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Anakin wasn't born until close to 4000 years after KotOR2...

 

Besides, Anakin didn't defy the force so much as the jedi simply misinterpreted the meaning of the prophecy (which is always the problem with prophecies...). Not at all the same thing, methinks.

 

Another contradiction of Kreia is that she claims that they were all puppets of the force, yet went on to say that the choices Revan made were all his own.  If the force wrote our destinies, how would we make our own choices?  And you can't say Revan was intentionally 'defying' the force.  Revan doesn't know the force's will, not even Kreia.  Don't forget, Kreia was dillusional with the force, mostly due to her own failings and betrayal. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think Revan defied the force so much as manipuated it. I think he realised what the consequences of his actions would be, but he also manipulated the circumstances so they would hopefully yield the results he planned. It didn't quite work for him, though, or else he was more himself more powerful than he anticipated.

 

And I'm not sure if Kreia was even correct that the exile survived without the force.  Remember what the Jedi Masters said:  "You weren't cut off from the force, you were merely deafened to it."  Perhaps the force didn't abandon the exile, he just couldn't feel it because he had to cut off his connection or risk dying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Kreia's comment that you mention here referred more to the fact that the Exile lived for a decade without ever using the force even though he was a jedi and as such had come to depend on it a great deal - compare this with her comments to Atton while the Exile sleeps upon arriving to Telos about how helpless the jedi are without the force. That was my take on it, at least.

[metadigital]

...

And I'm not sure if Kreia was even correct that the exile survived without the force.  Remember what the Jedi Masters said:  "You weren't cut off from the force, you were merely deafened to it."  Perhaps the force didn't abandon the exile, he just couldn't feel it because he had to cut off his connection or risk dying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make some interesting points; the one I have quoted above I would add a small clarification: if the Exile was deaf to the Force, that doesn't mean the Force wasn't still a part of the Exile. Beethoven could still feel the effect of the orchestra's playing through the wooden floor, for example.

How can you say the force wanted the exile to fall to the darkside?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because that was the fate he resisted at Malachor V.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you figure that? I would argue that if the Force makes fate. So the only fate for the Exile was for the Exile to survive M5 and complete this quest. Just like every time you watch Star Wars, Luke always hits that vent shaft, even though it's not much wider than a Wamprat that he used to bullseye in his old T16. :D

...

And I'm not sure if saving the force was a 'triumph' of her.  And I don't see how you can't say she didn't want to kill the force.  That contradicts everything we saw in the game.  Of course she wanted to kill the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I don't agree. If there is one thing consistent about Kreia throughout the game, then it's that she cares more about being right in her theories and teachings than anything. She constantly wants the Exile to listen to her advice, but she has problem being threatened or used as long as the Exile does so. Kreia was exiled by the jedi, because they [viewed] her teachings as misguided, flawed and corrupting. If Kreia wanted to kill the force, then why did she wait around on Malachor V for the Exile to stop her? Because her intention wasn't to actually kill the force as much as being confirmed in her theories and teachings and proving that the jedi were wrong about her.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the explanation I understodd as to why Kreia waits at the end of the game (apart from the obvious) is that she wanted to kill the Force, by creating a new, bigger wound out of the previous Wound. (And she was going to do this without the Exile if necessary, by committing suicide and causing the Bond to transmit the fatal Force wound, but I digress into highlighting poor plot progression. I won't even bother raising the point about how the death of Nihilus, another Wound in the Force, didn't seem to achieve this.)

 

So Kreia was waiting to kill the Force. When she failed, then I guess she was just being philosophical about it ...

 

 

 

PS I wonder if they were leaving Bao-Dur as a place-holder for any future K game. After all, he was left without a clearly vocalised destiny ...

[Krookie]

I always thought that we were left to think that Bao would go back to what he had always been doing. Helping rebulid Telos.

[GhostofAnakin]

I'm really not sure what they intended for Bao-Dur since Kreia always mentions she can't read him. It's either meant to be a mystery, or this was another casualty of the cut content and/or rushed release.

[kenelis]

Im sure Ill go back to this game in a few months...

 

I enjoyed K1 more, but I'll give credit where it's due. I enjoyed K2, and I've enjoyed it more each time I play it. I think it's because it takes that many plays to appreciate the story and depth.

 

I also enjoy the combat, although no more so than K1. What's missing are dark force users that actually use the Force against you, rather than just bum rush you with a lightsabre.

 

I wonder if they were leaving Bao-Dur as a place-holder for any future K game. After all, he was left without a clearly vocalised destiny ...

 

I hope not. The most boring character in the game, IMO. There's only so many times you can say "never mind" to someone before you give up.

 

I think the principle problem with the game is in the core philosphical theme behind it. That theme is nihilism (nothingness; no moral truths). It's not a feel good philosophy and most people don't like supporting it. I would't willingly seek out a study in nihilism when looking for an enjoyable game. Basing a game on nothing just doesn't work. People leave the game feeling unsatisfied from the experience.

 

Ah... now that's interesting. See, my biggest gripe with K2 is the fact that it leaves you feeling empty, but for me the problems were in the storytelling rather than the story, and in the characters.

 

The storytelling, IMO, failed to engage player. There were all these themes thrown out... HK assassin droids, some ugly Sith dude, regaining the Force, the Force bond with Kreia... that's great and all, but the player wasn't given any clue as to what the central goal is. What is the Exile's main purpose? I didn't think the game had one until the betrayal, so the player was left with nothing substantial to grasp onto, plotwise. Other RPGs I've enjoyed had a central goal (PST, BG1/2, K1 for example).

 

In addition, the plot was presented rather vaguely. Kreia and the Jedi Master's descriptions of the Exile's condition, of the Sith Lords, etc. were vague in typical Jedi fashion. They got too philosophical. Somebody shouting "we have to stop Sion now!" may be campy, but a few lines like that might put a little spirit into a game that is otherwise full of lines like "a mynock beating its wings may cause a sandstorm in the desert, and figuratively speaking, Jedi have large wings".

 

The characters were the other problem, and I griped about this on another thread. The villains were introduced early (at least Sion was), but none of them made the player want to stop them. Malak was campy, but he pushed the player's buttons. The party members, for the most part, failed to gain the player's sympathy or respect. They might've been interesting if they had more to say beyond the first dialogue.

 

And of course, the lack of finished plotlines didn't help.

[metadigital]

I'm really not sure what they intended for Bao-Dur since Kreia always mentions she can't read him.  It's either meant to be a mystery, or this was another casualty of the cut content and/or rushed release.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's a placeholder for the future. If they make another game, they have a ready character to use as a high-level NPC (even a bad guy).

I enjoyed K1 more, but I'll give credit where it's due. I enjoyed K2, and I've enjoyed it more each time I play it. I think it's because it takes that many plays to appreciate the story and depth.[1]

 

I also enjoy the combat, although no more so than K1.[2] What's missing are dark force users that actually use the Force against you, rather than just bum rush you with a lightsabre.

...

See, my biggest gripe with K2 is the fact that it leaves you feeling empty, but for me the problems were in the storytelling rather than the story, and in the characters. [3]

 

The storytelling, IMO, failed to engage player. There were all these themes thrown out... HK assassin droids, some ugly Sith dude, regaining the Force, the Force bond with Kreia... that's great and all, but the player wasn't given any clue as to what the central goal is. What is the Exile's main purpose? I didn't think the game had one until the betrayal, so the player was left with nothing substantial to grasp onto, plotwise. Other RPGs I've enjoyed had a central goal (PST, BG1/2, K1 for example).

 

In addition, the plot was presented rather vaguely. Kreia and the Jedi Master's descriptions of the Exile's condition, of the Sith Lords, etc. were vague in typical Jedi fashion. They got too philosophical. Somebody shouting "we have to stop Sion now!" may be campy, but a few lines like that might put a little spirit into a game that is otherwise full of lines like "a mynock beating its wings may cause a sandstorm in the desert, and figuratively speaking, Jedi have large wings".

 

[4]The characters were the other problem, and I griped about this on another thread. The villains were introduced early (at least Sion was), but none of them made the player want to stop them. Malak was campy, but he pushed the player's buttons. The party members, for the most part, failed to gain the player's sympathy or respect. They might've been interesting if they had more to say beyond the first dialogue.

 

And of course, the lack of finished plotlines didn't help.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. I found no joy in replaying the game. I discovered nearly all the story in the first playthrough.
    
   
2. That's because the combat was identical (same engine); except that, for reasons not explained, the BAB is uniform to all classes of Jedi and so overwelming that it quickly dwarfs all other combat bonuses due to attributes, feats, skills and items.
    
   Secondly, it appears that a decision was made late in the development cycle to multiply all the XP gained from combat (probably doubling it across the board). I can only deduce that this was to ensure that players experienced their PC at epic levels, after discovering that there was insufficient content to do so. After all, there's not much point in raising the level cap to 50 if the PC can only reach level fifteen.
    
   
3. I agree with your conclusion, but not all of your reasoning. The exposition of the story suffered at the hands of a clumsy, unsophisticated and unfinished Influence System.
    
   Secondly, I actually enjoy the philosophical underpinnings of the story, except where they are added as an afterthought, like this game. What I did like was the complexity of Kreia as a character (not a pantomime cut-out) and the range of play available for the PC.
    
   In fact, one of my criticisms is there were insufficient roles for the PC to play: outside of Goody-two-shoes, sack-of-kittens-drowner and a grey, median-type character that didn't always do the right thing but was basically not evil.
    
   
4. Can't argue with this.
    
   The villains were obviously the last design item on the development schedule, because they were heavily cut. Atris as the baddy for a DS Exile, for example, would have made a big difference. Ditto for Nihilus being a real character.
   

[GhostofAnakin]

He's a placeholder for the future. If they make another game, they have a ready character to use as a high-level NPC (even a bad guy).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That could be it. It's obviously just my opinion, but I think he's a pretty weak (story and character wise, not level wise) character to bring back like they did to Canderous in K2.

[metadigital]

Well, all bets are off if they bring him back: he could be anything from a Jedi to a Sith Lord, and everything in between, even to the point of having a good voice actor!

[GhostofAnakin]

*IF* they bring him back, hopefully it'll be in just some obscure meeting on Telos helping out with the restoration of the planet, and he just talks about what transpired since we last saw the Exile.

[Gabrielle]

So deep and so interesting.

[Krookie]

I'd like to see Canderous back again...he's my favorite NPC. As for Bao, I don't think he is important enought to bring back.

[metadigital]

*IF* they bring him back, hopefully it'll be in just some obscure meeting on Telos helping out with the restoration of the planet, and he just talks about what transpired since we last saw the Exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He should be the leader of the secret underground society: now that Telos is rebuilt, the drainage and irrigation conduits are a perfect place for espionage.

I'd like to see Canderous back again...he's my favorite NPC. As for Bao, I don't think he is important enought to bring back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear god only if they write some decent story around him.

[GhostofAnakin]

I'd like to see Canderous back again...he's my favorite NPC. As for Bao, I don't think he is important enought to bring back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear god only if they write some decent story around him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've said it before, and I'll repeat it. I think the problem with Mandalore/Canderous in K2 is all due to the rushed ending. He *could* have been an interesting party member if those missions to gather the Mandalorian clans had more of an actual impact on the story, or were more indepth.

 

But IMO those "missions" (if we can even call it that, since there was no XP to be had for convincing the clans on Nar Shaddaa and Dantooine to go to Dxun) were the result of a rushed product, and thus Mandalore's part became quite inconsequential.

 

And since his "story" in K2 wasn't really all that important, we couldn't even fall back on his backstory since we already knew most everything about him from K1.

[Gabrielle]

Like a lot of you said Canderous would have been better, if he was finsihed. He had history with Revan, a lot of light could have been shed about Revan and her were abouts. He should recognize HK-47 and T3 and doesn't say a thing to them. He was at Malachor V and a lot of history could have been said here as well.

 

How I dislike rushed / incomplete jobs.

[metadigital]

I'd like to see Canderous back again...he's my favorite NPC. As for Bao, I don't think he is important enought to bring back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear god only if they write some decent story around him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've said it before, and I'll repeat it. I think the problem with Mandalore/Canderous in K2 is all due to the rushed ending. He *could* have been an interesting party member if those missions to gather the Mandalorian clans had more of an actual impact on the story, or were more indepth.

 

But IMO those "missions" (if we can even call it that, since there was no XP to be had for convincing the clans on Nar Shaddaa and Dantooine to go to Dxun) were the result of a rushed product, and thus Mandalore's part became quite inconsequential.

 

And since his "story" in K2 wasn't really all that important, we couldn't even fall back on his backstory since we already knew most everything about him from K1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still stealing my ideas?

 

Just say "I agree".

[Krookie]

Mandalore would have been a great charecter. I love listening to the war stories though...

[Cathryn]

How I dislike rushed / incomplete jobs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep. It was so gratuitous, I almost wish they just hadn't bothered.

[GhostofAnakin]

Still stealing my ideas?

 

Just say "I agree".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sorry, was that the wind? I really should shut that window. "

[vaxen83]

Then again, who can tell?

[Slipstreme]

I can't believe a game that was so cut-up got such a high level