Finally, my opinions/suggestions of KOTOR 2

[Eight_Nunb]

Obsidian did a good job, but i prefer KOTOR 1. If not for the easy combat difficulty & lack of villain storyline it may have been better than KOTOR 1. Here's some complains i had with KOTOR 2, mixed w/ some suggestions for KOTOR 3 :

 

- THIS GAME IS WAY TOO FREAKIN' EASY DURING THE MIDDLE 2/3 OF THE GAME!!!! Arrrg! This was my biggest complaint of KOTOR 2. After you finish the 2nd or 3rd planet, you are an unstoppable juggernaut and combat is just so boring and easy even on 'Difficult' setting. Adding the new lightsaber forms and Force forms was very cool, but i never used them because i could slice through enemies so easily no matter what i used. I realize its hard to balance the game b/c a player can visit any player at any time during the game. But PLEASE include a difficulty setting that gives the game a challenge no matter how far you are into the game etc. KOTOR 2 needed a extra, higher difficulty setting. This nearly spoiled the game for me.

 

- My second big complaint: Not enough story revolved around the villains of the game in KOTOR2. We rarely saw them, let alone fought them. They rarely showed up in any cut-scenes, battles etc. Contrast this with KOTOR 1 when Malak was constantly appearing in the story etc. Its hard to make compelling villains when you hardly develop their them.

 

- Obviously, the graphics were a let-down. Very little improvement. I still can't believe this game doesn't have 'moving clouds' in the sky yet! A bunch of PS1 games have moving clouds, as do most early PS2 games. Craptacular textures on some of the city planets (buildings mostly).

 

- Bring back the "new items" tab in the menu. That was handy in KOTOR 1 to see things i just picked up qithout scrolling forever.

 

- Make T3 stronger and actually playable! He's so wimpy. Obsidian actually had to make an all-T3 or 2 mission just so we'd get a chance to play him. Instead of forcing us to play him, why not have us WANT to play T3? I would suggest maybe giving T3 a power/ability that no other character has and that you need to use on some missions.

 

- Please include more force powers for KOTOR 3, and improve the current ones. How about when using 'force-choke', the enemy actually floats off the ground and grabs his neck ala Vader like in Jedi Outcast.

 

- Not enough regular, single-bladed lightsabers found in the game. Why does one of my main Jedi characters still use a short lightsaber when i'm 80% through the game?

 

- There still aren't enough opportunities or reasons to use mines in the game. Maybe because the game was too easy?

 

- How about some epic, large-scale, many-enemy battles in KOTOR 3? (see: Geonosis jedi battle in Ep2: AOTC).

 

- The music was very good in KOTOR2, better than KOTOR 1. However, how about a few songs from the movies thrown in? Or even some remixed John Williams tunes? The soundtrack player was a GREAT addition!

[alanschu]

Make T3 stronger and actually playable! He's so wimpy. Obsidian actually had to make an all-T3 or 2 mission just so we'd get a chance to play him. Instead of forcing us to play him, why not have us WANT to play T3? I would suggest maybe giving T3 a power/ability that no other character has and that you need to use on some missions.

 

You complain about being forced to use T3, but then suggest that we give T3 an ability that we would need him for on some missions???

 

My second big complaint: Not enough story revolved around the villains of the game in KOTOR2. We rarely saw them, let alone fought them. They rarely showed up in any cut-scenes, battles etc. Contrast this with KOTOR 1 when Malak was constantly appearing in the story etc. Its hard to make compelling villains when you hardly develop their them.

 

Malak constantly appearing in the story doesn't make him more developed. Ironically, you spend virtually the entire game of KOTOR 2

right beside the main villain

.

[EnderAndrew]

I agree that the story did revolve around the villians quite a bit it KOTOR:2, and far more so than in KOTOR:1.

 

I also think that T3 was more of a pimp in KOTOR:2, both power wise and character wise.

 

Welcome to the forums, BTW.

[Craigboy2]

- Obviously, the graphics were a let-down. Very little improvement. I still can't believe this game doesn't have 'moving clouds' in the sky yet! A bunch of PS1 games have moving clouds, as do most early PS2 games.  Craptacular textures on some of the city planets (buildings mostly).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

RPGs are alot more complitcated than a FPS game. Also the background you see is really just a picture. Go into freeroom next you play KOTOR.

[SamuraiGaijin]

- THIS GAME IS WAY TOO FREAKIN' EASY ...

- My second big complaint:  Not enough story revolved around the villains ...

- Make T3 stronger and actually playable! ...

- Please include more force powers for KOTOR 3 ...

- Not enough regular, single-bladed lightsabers ...

- There still aren't enough opportunities or reasons to use mines in the game ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Concur on all these points.

- Developers definitely should examine the "challenge rating" feature built into the d20 system: about 40% of the encounters should be routine - where a smartly played PC is almost certainly won't die; 30% tough - ... is unlikely to die; 15% hard - ... might die; and 5% - ... has a pretty good chance to die. It shouldn't be too hard to scale the level of the encounter to the level of the PC (and, of course, the XP and loot).

- A great villian makes the story - I was pretty confused throughout my first playthrough. Less so on my second, and I think I finally had the plot, the PC's real motivations, etc. figured out the third time through. Had I played only once, I probably wouldn't like the game nearly as much as I do.

- T3 is much more useful, but still requires some tweaking - his shock arm rocks, give him the Droid Warfare (or, even better, Battle) Upgrade, a kickass rifle, and some useful armor, and he's a darn good little fighter.

- The force tree and feat tree need expansion - upon completing the game the first time, I was about 30th level - and really had dig around to figure out which power/feat I wanted to get - and still didn't use most of them. The force power and attack feat animations could use a revamp, as well.

- This is probably the biggest reason I didn't like the random loot generator - with seemingly equal chance to get a regular/short/double lightsaber in most encounters that result in one, it seems like you never got what you wanted - made character development difficult. How you equip your PC and your jedi NPC's is a major coice, IMO, and it was frustrating to get a double when you had been working on duelling feats with Atton, and were hoping for a regular, or never being able to find a shortie, etc.

- I really liked that disarming/recovering mines was worth XP, but other than trying to figure out how to get them out of your way, they were pretty useless.

 

All told, however, it is a good game ... it's both a Star Wars Game and a Role Playing Game before anything else, though, and won't appeal as strongly to those who are not fans of both.

[Lancer]

I agree that the story did revolve around the villians quite a bit it KOTOR:2, and far more so than in KOTOR:1.

 

In a way KOTOR2's story did revolve (in an albeit indirect way) around the villains more, yes, but KOTOR2 still managed to flesh out the said villains rather poorly (i.e Nihilus). Malak was much more believable than either Nihilus or Sion.

[EnderAndrew]

What was believable about Malak? He was cheesy and evil for the sake of being evil.

 

I hate cookie-cutter villians.

[Jediphile]

- THIS GAME IS WAY TOO FREAKIN' EASY ...

- My second big complaint:  Not enough story revolved around the villains ...

- Make T3 stronger and actually playable! ...

- Please include more force powers for KOTOR 3 ...

- Not enough regular, single-bladed lightsabers ...

- There still aren't enough opportunities or reasons to use mines in the game ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, the game was frequently too easy. On my first play through, my sentinel/weaponmaster cut the enemies to pieces no sweat. Nihilus went down way to quick, and you felt challenge only in few encounters. The second time through with my sentiel/Sith Lord was even worse - Force Wave followed by a few Force Storms and the enemies go down like flies, and Sion was Force Crushed into oblivion, bringing me to the conversations much too quickly and actually making his threats of invincibility rather laughable...

 

As for T3, I have the same problem with most NPCs - you use a few and forget all about the rest. HK-47, GOTO, and Hanharr I will only deal with for influence. Mandalore I won't use at all. Among the potential jedi, I spread out the force powers a bit, but usually the same crowd ends up the in the group with the PC and Kreia (since she gives xp bonuses). I'd actually suggest fewer or temporary NPCs in K3. K2 had more NPCs, and I only used those who could become jedi...

 

We certainly don't need more force powers - we need less. How many of us actually use Revitalize, Force Body, Force Barrier, Battle Meditation, Force Deflection, Slow, Fear, Force Suppression, Throw Lightsaber, Drain Force, Force Scream, Mind Trick or any of their progressions? I might use one if an NPC has it (especially Battle Meditation), but in most cases they are totally redundant. Force Suppression and Force Resistance used to be excellent powers in K1, but in K2 you never use them because by the time you actually meet hostile force users, you've long since become too powerful for them to have a decent chance of affecting you. Powers like Force Body or Force Deflection are totally redundant and may be removed completely - I don't think anybody uses them *ever*. I usually let my NPCs take them just so somebody in the group has them, but I've never really used them...

 

The shortage of lightsabers is due to the random loot. We really need to cut down on that. For one thing, we need the enemies to carry stuff they'll actually use. Why would Sith assassins drop laser rifles when they only ever fight melee? Silly. The reverse is also true, though - if the enemy fired on me with a blaster, then I want to find a blaster when he's dead! K2 is well on its way to totally random and senseless Monty Haul loot like in Diablo 2, where swarms on mosquitos can drop heavy plate mail armors when killed "

 

Don't agree with the criticism of villains either. K2 has a more intricate and open-ended plot, but even so the villains are far more interesting and complex than Malak ever was. Just thinking about Sion's shattered bones makes my skin crawl... Nihilus was a bit of a wasted potential, but then I don't think his story is quite over yet, as I've said before...

 

The mines are still rather redundant, yes, though I find them very useful when I needed Mira to escape from Visquis' lair and didn't want to level her up until she had become a jedi...

[Shryke]

I agree that the story did revolve around the villians quite a bit it KOTOR:2, and far more so than in KOTOR:1.

 

I also think that T3 was more of a pimp in KOTOR:2, both power wise and character wise.

 

Welcome to the forums, BTW.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

T3 was definitely cooler in K2 :cool:

 

with all the repairs and free upgrades and everything, T3 gets pretty strong. he's my favourite ranged character (after Mira)

[SamuraiGaijin]

- The force tree and feat tree need expansion ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

- If you're going to be expected to complete the game with about 30 force powers, make them useful, or make them upgradable beyond three levels - same goes with feats. While the Weaponmaster/Marauder improved on this some, it wasn't enough. One option would be to allow specialization in the Force Forms, as well.

 

I definitely didn't mean we need a longer list of choices ... I meant it should have five or so levels of mastery, if the game must have level progression beyond 20 (if it must follow the d20 ruleset).

[Calax]

Some of the bosses could be pretty difficult under certain circumstances or if you didn't know how to beat them (Giant beastie, and Hanharr come to mind)

[Marka Ragnos]

meh, I tore through both pretty quick. and if I was hanharr mira went down quickly due to his crazy strength and constitution.

[GhostofAnakin]

- THIS GAME IS WAY TOO FREAKIN' EASY DURING THE MIDDLE 2/3 OF THE GAME!!!! Arrrg!  This was my biggest complaint of KOTOR 2.

 

As opposed to how difficult K1 was? Both KOTOR games could have used a difficulty upgrade, so I don't think it's accurate to label this as a K2 specific thing.

 

- My second big complaint:  Not enough story revolved around the villains of the game in KOTOR2. We rarely saw them, let alone fought them.  They rarely showed up in any cut-scenes, battles etc.  Contrast this with KOTOR 1 when Malak was constantly appearing in the story etc.  Its hard to make compelling villains when you hardly develop their them.

 

The entire story revolved around the main villains. Heck,

you had one of the three Sith Lords potentially with you the ENTIRE game if you used Kreia in your party all the time

. You saw Sion twice before the final confrontation, plus all his cutscenes with Kreia. And Nihilus was seen around Visas' joining.

 

- Obviously, the graphics were a let-down. Very little improvement. I still can't believe this game doesn't have 'moving clouds' in the sky yet! A bunch of PS1 games have moving clouds, as do most early PS2 games.  Craptacular textures on some of the city planets (buildings mostly).

 

You knew that going in. Or atleast you should have since Obsidian made no bones about the fact they would be using the same engine and pretty much the same graphics. The engine can only make things look so good, since it's quite outdated nowadays.

 

- Bring back the "new items" tab in the menu. That was handy in KOTOR 1 to see things i just picked up qithout scrolling forever.

 

Didn't really notice this one, so whatever.

 

- Make T3 stronger and actually playable! He's so wimpy. Obsidian actually had to make an all-T3 or 2 mission just so we'd get a chance to play him. Instead of forcing us to play him, why not have us WANT to play T3?  I would suggest maybe giving T3 a power/ability that no other character has and that you need to use on some missions.

 

You say you liked K1 more than K2, but yet you list this as one of your complaints? T3 was MUCH, MUCH better in K2 than he was in K1. For starters, he had a personality. You could actually have dialogue with him rather than in K1 where "T3 has nothing to say". I can't disagree more with this one.

 

- Please include more force powers for KOTOR 3, and improve the current ones. How about when using 'force-choke', the enemy actually floats off the ground and grabs his neck ala Vader like in Jedi Outcast.

 

MORE Force powers? They already have too many of them to begin with. As with graphics, the engine limits what they could make the Force powers appear to do. So what you're asking was an engine issue. Not to mention it was in K1.

 

- Not enough regular, single-bladed lightsabers found in the game. Why does one of my main Jedi characters still use a short lightsaber when i'm 80% through the game?

 

Random loot generator. I rarely came across short lightsabers myself.

 

- There still aren't enough opportunities or reasons to use mines in the game. Maybe because the game was too easy?

 

More than in K1

 

- How about some epic, large-scale, many-enemy battles in KOTOR 3? (see: Geonosis jedi battle in Ep2: AOTC).

 

You mean like the Skybridge on Onderon? Not to mention it's a single player game. Having huge battles is better when it's multiplayer since as it is you can only control one person anyways so the rest would just be a big jumbled mess of NPCs fighting each other.

 

- The music was very good in KOTOR2, better than KOTOR 1. However, how about a few songs from the movies thrown in? Or even some remixed John Williams tunes? The soundtrack player was a GREAT addition!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No comment.

[Dark Moth]

I agree that the story did revolve around the villians quite a bit it KOTOR:2, and far more so than in KOTOR:1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, you're serious, aren't you?

If you exclude Kreia, then basically your enemies have way less screentime than K1. In K1, you were constantly reminded of the Sith threat, and they fought you on every planet and you were shown glimpses of them in cutscenes. And the Ravager was, or course, entirely Sith. And since some don't even consider Kreia a real "villain", that's basically a moot point.

 

Nihilus got practically no screentime except when you battle him (and he was a pushover), and Sion got barely any more time. And if you think about it, Sion was just there for show. I mean, if you exclude his character, it doesn't make an impact on the story at all. They could have easily done the game without Sion. Kreia was, of course, the final boss, and Nihilus destroyed Katarr and essentially brought about Visas's character and, of course, he was actually a threat to all life. Sion was just someone there to take up space.

 

While Malak was a tad cliche, I found him far more believable and overall better done than either Sion or Nihilus. Kreia was more complex and could have been better done, but Malak seemed to be the better "villain". They went for a Sidious type character for Kreia, but IMO it failed.

[GhostofAnakin]

    Oh, you're serious, aren't you? 

If you exclude Kreia, then basically your enemies have way less screentime than K1.  In K1, you were constantly reminded of the Sith threat, and they fought you on every planet and you were shown glimpses of them in cutscenes.  And the Ravager was, or course, entirely Sith. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why would you exclude Kreia? That's like saying "well if you exclude Malak, Darth Bandon got next to zero screen time!". You can't exclude Kreia since she's THE main antagonist.

 

btw, I couldn't really answer this without spoilers. Can the mods move this to the Spoiler forum?

[Dark Moth]

Okay, good point, but if you consider Kreia, the main thing she did was simply mentor your character and fill you in on certain details, especially about Revan. The whole "destroying the force" thing I think was a tad lame, esp since they never fully explained how you could do that.

 

And even if you exclude Kreia as the main villain, that could still be done. Nihilus would be your main bad guy, Kreia would be the one to help bring you back to the force, Visas could tell about the Sith Lords and show you how to defeat Nihilus, and you could get your information on Revan from a variety of different sources and NPC's, such as the Jedi Masters. They could have made Nihilus the main baddy and I think that still would have worked out okay. In fact, it could have been him from whom you find out about the "True Sith". And um...

 

I dunno. That's just how I see things.

 

Edit: I changed the idea on this post, because after thinking about it, Kreia is important, but not necessarily as a villain or nemesis.

Edited August 2, 2005 by Mothman

[kormesios]

I'm going to disagree a bit on the difficulty thing--I think the basic problem is not that encounters weren't tough (which is true) but that the design didn't encourage alternate tactics.

 

KoTOR2 was even worse than 1, but the same basic problem was in both. There was never an incentive to use ranged weapons against foes who were deadly with melee weapons. You never get a chance to force people to fight in a narrow space so they couldn't use their numbers against you, nor draw off a couple members of a large group, nor is there any benefit to "scout ahead" and develop a careful plan for attack. You're pretty much guaranteed that once you start combat, you and your companions will be involved in melee combat, and the only "strategy" is deciding whether it's better to use force-heal or a medpac.

 

Simply making the combat tougher wouldn't have solved the problem IMHO--it just would have made the game annoying, since the rather illogical actions of your followers and your clumsy control of them would move from a minor nuisance to requiring reloads.

 

I don't know how much could be done within the system, but some things could have been tried. Obvious ones would be one or two fights were terrain made a difference (ie, you could choose to face someone across a chasm to nullify melee attacks) would have helped, or getting the force sucked out of you before the fight, or an area that reversed the effects of all your powers, or whatever. A few surprises, anyway--when as far as I can tell the only variety was adding more enemies or making them more damaging. I imagine the alternate ways are trickier to balance--another casualty of the rapid development time lines?

[BattleCookiee]

btw, I couldn't really answer this without spoilers.  Can the mods move this to the Spoiler forum?

 

Since there is a great discussion about the "Bosses", that seems appropriate indeed...

[Lord Kil]

What was believable about Malak?  He was cheesy and evil for the sake of being evil.

 

I hate cookie-cutter villians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Malak was campy and stereotypical, but the story makes him into a great villian. Think about all that's happened prior to your final confrontation:

 

1.) He destroyed an entire planet trying to kill you.

 

2.) You learn that he was your former apprentice, and he tried to "backstab" you while you were fighting Jedi's to take over the army you built.

 

3.) Your first confrontation on the Leviathon ends with him "kidnapping" your hot girlfriend and turning her to the dark side.

 

By the time you hit the Star Forge, you've got plenty of "motivation" for wanting to take him out. The only villian that comes close to making it personal in KOTOR 2 is Kreia. The only reason your fighting Kreia though, is because she asked you to.

 

Scion and Nihilus are just cut scene "action figures" with zero dialog, and zero connection to your character. At least you get to talk to Atris, and she attacks one of your potential girlfriends. It's a start, but she's no Malak.

 

Malak is still the big dawg of KOTOR villians, we'll see what KOTOR 3's got. :cool:

[GhostofAnakin]

Scion and Nihilus are just cut scene "action figures" with zero dialog, and zero connection to your character. At least you get to talk to Atris, and she attacks one of your potential girlfriends. It's a start, but she's no Malak.

 

Malak is still the big dawg of KOTOR villians, we'll see what KOTOR 3's got.  :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll grant Nihilus didn't have much of a part in the game, atleast in terms of a huge connection to the Exile (other than Kreia's assertion that he was created from Malachor and what the Exile did there), but your comment about Sion is way off.

 

He's the one hunting you from the get go (first cut scene), he confronts you at Korriban, and he's the one that goes into a big speech during his fight with you on Malachor V.

[Dark Moth]

Scion and Nihilus are just cut scene "action figures" with zero dialog, and zero connection to your character. At least you get to talk to Atris, and she attacks one of your potential girlfriends. It's a start, but she's no Malak.

 

Malak is still the big dawg of KOTOR villians, we'll see what KOTOR 3's got.  :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll grant Nihilus didn't have much of a part in the game, atleast in terms of a huge connection to the Exile (other than Kreia's assertion that he was created from Malachor and what the Exile did there), but your comment about Sion is way off.

 

He's the one hunting you from the get go (first cut scene), he confronts you at Korriban, and he's the one that goes into a big speech during his fight with you on Malachor V.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, but what did he contribute to the story, overall? Nothing, really. Sure he was hunting you, but so were all the other Sith. It's not like he was unique in that aspect. IMO, they could have gotten rid of his character and it wouldn't have made much of a difference. You could go on and say the same thing about Darth Bandon in K1, but Bandon was never hyped as an important character. He was just stuck in to give you an extra guy to fight. Sion was very hyped (not as much as Nihilus, I admit), but after playing K2 twice, I think he was just there for show.

[GhostofAnakin]

Yeah, but what did he contribute to the story, overall?  Nothing, really.  Sure he was hunting you, but so were all the other Sith.  It's not like he was unique in that aspect.  IMO, they could have gotten rid of his character and it wouldn't have made much of a difference.  You could go on and say the same thing about Darth Bandon in K1, but Bandon was never hyped as an important character.  He was just stuck in to give you an extra guy to fight.  Sion was very hyped (not as much as Nihilus, I admit), but after playing K2 twice, I think he was just there for show.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He was Kreia's "failed" student and thus part of her motivation for training the Exile.

 

Saying he didn't contribute to the story is like saying "what did Malak contribute to K1?". What DID Malak contribute? He betrayed Revan, but the story itself could have worked if any other Sith had then defeated Malak and taken control of the Star Forge. The story itself was about Revan and his redemption, Malak just played a part in it. That is, of course, if you narrow his part in the story down the way you did to Sion.

[Krookie]

I liked T3 in K2. He's in my party from the second I leave Peragus. "

[Dark Moth]

Yeah, but what did he contribute to the story, overall?  Nothing, really.  Sure he was hunting you, but so were all the other Sith.  It's not like he was unique in that aspect.  IMO, they could have gotten rid of his character and it wouldn't have made much of a difference.  You could go on and say the same thing about Darth Bandon in K1, but Bandon was never hyped as an important character.  He was just stuck in to give you an extra guy to fight.  Sion was very hyped (not as much as Nihilus, I admit), but after playing K2 twice, I think he was just there for show.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He was Kreia's "failed" student and thus part of her motivation for training the Exile.

 

Saying he didn't contribute to the story is like saying "what did Malak contribute to K1?". What DID Malak contribute? He betrayed Revan, but the story itself could have worked if any other Sith had then defeated Malak and taken control of the Star Forge. The story itself was about Revan and his redemption, Malak just played a part in it. That is, of course, if you narrow his part in the story down the way you did to Sion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are you serious? Malak had a huge role in K1! The story was tied to him in a ton of ways. He was also, of course, the main bad guy. Without his character, or someone to fill his place, the story would never have happened. Your character would never have been betrayed in the first place, and the rest of everything in K1 would not have happened.

 

As for Sion, look at his character and the part he played. He betrayed Kreia, but so did Nihilus. He was not unique in that aspect, either. If you look at his character and all his contributions, they really don't matter that much. If you had 2 Sith Lords instead of three, the story would have still worked out. Why? Nihilus would have betrayed Kreia anyway, and almost everything that happened could have been done without him. Because he really didn't contribute that much. He's really not unique in any way. I stand by what I said: his character was just there to fill up space and look mean.

 

Not to mention that he turned into a crybaby in the end. " "Waaah! Kreia doesn't like me anymore!"

[Jediphile]

Nihilus would have betrayed Kreia anyway, and almost everything that happened could have been done without him.  Because he really didn't contribute that much.  He's really not unique in any way.  I stand by what I said: his character was just there to fill up space and look mean. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I *really* think you're overlooking Nihilus' special ties to the Exile... Yes, he may have been a pushover in combat, but plotwise he is a central character, and he scared the living **** out of me when I confronted him... Until the actual fight began, that is