New PS3 details emerge...

[EnderAndrew]

Sony has already announced multiple dev-kits.

[metadigital]

• P4E Intel 925XE motherboard chipset

You have to be kidding me!

 

The AMD 64 FX series trounces the P4 series for gaming. And the multicore FX line is coming out in a few months which may be a quantum leap in processing power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wanted to post the AMD 64FX. I did.

 

Unfortunately, the nVidia 7800 GTX SLI currently only works on the Intel chipset.

Hopefully the developers don't have to spend 90% if their time optimizing their code for a multithreaded-framework. In theory, both MS and Sony should provide a SDK with the dev-kits(MS has XNA IIRC) in order easy some of the developer's headaches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I read the trend correctly, it seems that all gaming (computing) is going multi-threaded, anyway, so it will be an unavoidable necessity for every game developer ...

[EnderAndrew]

http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/231/

 

There is a picture of he 7800 GTX SLI running with an Athlon 64 4000+

[metadigital]

http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/231/

 

There is a picture of he 7800 GTX SLI running with an Athlon 64 4000+

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's wierd! now I read the bit in PC Format where I took the stats from, it doesn't tally with my recall: it says nothing about the "Intel only".

 

Oh, well, I have no express love of Intel.

 

Here's the AMD best of breed:

• AMD nVidia nForce 4
  Gigabit ethernet, SATA, in Ultra and SLI configs; OR
  
• AMD SiS 755
  The first full-fat choice for Athlon 64 enthusiasts. Boasts the most comprehensive overclocking features, including adjustable clock speeds for PCI and AGP buses. Performance is second to none and includes SATA support, but only 100Mbps ethernet.
  

 

(I'll just check this month's PC Gamer in case what I read was in there ...)

 

Edit:

Hmm, didn't find it there, but I did come across an asrticle stating that the best of the dual core CPUs is the Athlon 64 X2 (which is upgradeable from the Athlon 64 939-pin CPU).

 

How quisquous!

 

Here is the PC Gamer Best of Breed:

[*]Athlon FX-55 (

[alanschu]

I think the difficulty with multithreading is just multithreading itself. I think once you have a program to support multiple threads, getting it to run on 2, 3, 8, or 20 processors is just a bit of tweaking.

 

From what I understand, the bulk of the difficulty is just getting the application multithreaded to begin with.

[Epiphany]

We're not just talking about pure floating point performance.

 

Yeah, that's the focal point of Sony's "power campaign" - they have a higher theoretical FLOP number.

 

We're talking great color depth, and twice as many pixel shader operations per second as well.

 

Xenos has 48 pipes

 

RSX has 32 pipes (24 pixel and 8 vertex) - although I remember hearing a while back that it was only supposed to have 6 vertex, which would give it 26 pixel instead.

 

Given that USA can break down the 48 pipes on Xenos however it needs to be - well...

 

Add to that we know that as an end-result, Sony says the machine can put out two 1080p images, where as the 360 can only put out one 720p image.

 

I realize this may come as a surprise, but the X360 will output in 1080i as well as 720p. 720p is just the minimum STANDARD resolution that developers must meet. But that aside, the PS3 has no required resolution, which means it's possible games will be released at 480p on the system. So there goes the above "color depth" comment, right out the window.

 

Whether or not the PS3 is "twice" as powerful as the 360 isn't really debatable.  The only debate is whether or not that power will be utilized, and given the number of developers in Sony's corner, why should we really believe it won't be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The number of developers? I've seen floods of developers making games for the X360. Announcing them, announcing exclusives, Square-Enix offering strong support for next gen with titles beyond their FF MMORPG rehashed re-release. Hell, they just announced that the X360 would be getting new franchises as well.

[Musopticon?]

Could you please stop bringing this up time and time again? It's definetly not needed.

[Epiphany]

Could you please stop bringing this up time and time again? It's definetly not needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Then don't read the post, genius. It's not like there are dozens of threads on the topic.

[Musopticon?]

How could I put this so that even you could understand...?

 

 

We don't need flames or "my preference vs. your preference"-fights.

[alanschu]

I'm curious what your background is on AI. Particularly ones that let you state specific things such as "FPU performance in AI is a moot subject, as the bulk, and in most cases ALL of the AI is done using logic."

 

I'm also curious....how would you define logic in AI?

[EnderAndrew]

Could you please stop bringing this up time and time again? It's definetly not needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Then don't read the post, genius. It's not like there are dozens of threads on the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Allard said the XBox 360 can't put out a single 1080p image, let alone two.

 

And regardless of pipelines, the actual pixel shader ops per second have been clocked, and the RSX puts out twice as many.

[Epiphany]

Allard said the XBox 360 can't put out a single 1080p image, let alone two.

 

ATi has already stated that Xenos is more than capable of displaying 1080p images. It was the decision of Microsoft to not support a resolution that has no foothold on the market - and won't for another 5-6 years.

 

And regardless of pipelines, the actual pixel shader ops per second have been clocked, and the RSX puts out twice as many.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd like to see your proof that someone has clocked the RSX at 96 billion continual shader operations per second.

 

Because, as it stands now - Xenos can perform at a continual 48 billion per second while the RSX has a theoretical 60 billion total ops per second (52 pixel and 8 vertex).

 

If you're going to quote Nvidia/Sony sources, then please, allow me to quote ATi where they have already said the PS3 will be "slower and less powerful" than the X360. Or perhaps where Nvidia said that PC GPU's would be more powerful than the RSX at PS3 launch, but where ATi has stated that it'll take a few generations before PC GPU's catch up to Xenos.

 

:|

[EnderAndrew]

NVidia already has a GPU out right now that beats both.

 

http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=1592

[Epiphany]

NVidia already has a GPU out right now that beats both.

 

http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=1592

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Beats both in what? I don't see USA or eDRAM on that card. It's total performance is in no way greater than Xenos - given the card doesn't have near free FSAA (5% performance hit) - I do, however, see it takes a 25% hit at FSAA 4 w/ 8X AF or a 14% hit with just 4x FSAA turned on in Half Life 2 at 1280 x 1024 which is the closest 720p resolution they tested.

 

It also appeared as those the "no FSAA" framerate was CPU limited, which means the performance hit would be even larger with a more powerful CPU.

 

So, I don't see how that card "beats both" in terms of overall performance and/or features. Xenos is a monster GPU, the eDRAM and USA give it a huge edge in performance over any card on the market, and any card that will be on the market for a long while, until the unique architecture is adopted by ATi and Nvidia for PC GPU's.

 

Regardless, you still didn't show where the RSX had 96 billion continual shader ops per second.

[Guest Fishboot]

http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/231/

 

There is a picture of he 7800 GTX SLI running with an Athlon 64 4000+

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*moan*

[metadigital]

John Carmack on the future of the gaming industry, during his traditional extemporaneous speech, at the recent Quakecon 2005.

 

Carmack, Quakecon 2005

 

...

Here Carmack heaped praise on the decisions that Microsoft has made with the Xbox 360. "It's the best development environment I've seen on a console," he says. Microsoft has taken a very developer-centric approach, creating a system that's both powerful but easy to code for. This is in contrast to Nintendo, Sony, and (formerly) Sega, who generally focused on the hardware.

Carmack ruminated on how throughout history consoles have swung back and forth between providing high-end hardware or development tools. Until the PS1 came out, nearly everything was done at the register level, but Sony's first console shipped with tools to help speed the development process. This was in opposition to the Sega Saturn, which was very powerful but nearly impossible to efficiently code for. Then, with the release of the PS2, Sony flip-flopped: the PS2 had much more complicated hardware and you basically had to program it at the low level again. Then along came the Xbox, which didn't have low-level access but was way easier to program.

 

Carmack looks forward to what's coming up. "It'll be real interesting to see how this next generation pans out," he said. This time around, the Xbox 360 is coming out sooner and is easier to program; will it be enough to supplant Sony's market lead?

...

Sony's position seems to be similar to the company's stance with the PS2: Sure, it'll be hard, but the really good developers will suck it up and figure it out. But Carmack wonders aloud: wouldn't it have been better to use multi-threaded processors to begin with?

...

Multiple Processors for AI or Physics

 

Proponents of faster and faster processors sometimes argue that now that graphics are reaching their 'peak,' extra processing power can be dedicated to calculation-intensive physics or Artificial Intelligence. (Carmack relates how an Engineer at IBM told him that graphics were basically "done.") Carmack disagrees, seeing that graphics still have a long way to go. "We'd like to be doing Lord-of-the-Rings type rendering in real-time," he states. That's still an order of magnitude more than what's possible with current machines, and Carmack is looking forward to it.

 

That aside, Carmack spent a few minutes talking about Artificial Intelligence as something that can be offloaded to another processor for a cutting-edge game. Carmack is skeptical. AI is a very bleeding-edge science, and it can often be processor intensive, but when applied to games AI is usually a matter of scripting. What game designers want is a way to act as the 'director,' telling enemy and friendly characters where to stand and what to do. This doesn't take a ton of processing power.

 

Moreover, even if you did throw tons of resources toward the AI, it might not be the best thing for gameplay. For instance, writing tons and tons of code to enable monsters to hide in the shadows and sneak around behind the player would be interesting, but often these types of things could be scripted for a fraction of the effort and - for most players - the experience would be just as cool if not cooler. Carmack recounts how players of the original DOOM would think that the monsters were doing all sorts of scheming and plotting and ambushing when, in truth, they were just using the equivalent of one page of C code and running the most basic of scripts.

...

Open vs. Closed Console Platforms

 

Carmack's talk changed gears at this point, starting with an aside about Sony. Although he raves about the Xbox 360 development tools, Carmack noted that Sony is making noise about making the PS3 a more open platform. As a big proponent of open source and - well, open anything - the programmer is excited to see if this goes anywhere. His biggest pet peeve with the console market is how closed off it is: you have to apply to be a developer and get a special development kit and get product approval from the hardware manufacturer, etc. (As opposed to the PC market, where anyone can develop and game creators can release content updates, point releases, and so on.) That's just the nature of the market. If the PS3 opens up, it'll be more like the old Commodore Amiga, a platform anyone can use for a variety of applications. Certainly Microsoft will never do this with the Xbox product line, but Carmack is holding out hope that Sony could experiment.

 

Following that train of thought, Carmack asked how many people in the room had HDTVs at home. (I was surprised at how few people raised their hands - from where I sat it looked like less than a quarter of the audience. And these guys are hardcore!) Carmack pointed out that any sort of plan for using a console or set-top box as a computing device really requires the high resolution of an HDTV or computer monitor to be effective. Bringing the topic around full circle, he pointed out that Microsoft may enact a policy of requiring all Xbox 360 games to be rendered at HDTV resolutions, regardless of whether or not that decision helps with the design of the game. He says that some marketing person probably made that decision, another thing that bothers him about the console industry.

...

Open Source, Modding, and Innovation

 

Carmack is aware of the difficulties for new programmers who want to get into the business: it's a long way from staring at a blank page in a compiler to having Doom 3. What can be done? Over the past several years Carmack has done his part by releasing the source codes to his previous game engines. Which led up to a big announcement:

 

Sometime over the next week or so, the Quake 3 source engine will be released under the GPL license. Since Q3 is still a viable development platform, the community should learn a lot from tearing into it. Carmack notes that the Punkbuster code has been removed so he hopes that cheating won't be a huge problem.

 

Carmack thinks that innovation in the game industry, since it won't often come from large professional development houses, will likely come from the modification or open source communities. There, people can try random ideas to see what works. Example? Counter-Strike, one of the most popular games played online today, which started out as a handful of mod-makers trying to make something fun.

 

The GPL license will allow people to take the Quake 3 engine and even go so far as to release a commercial product with it - provided that the source code is published alongside. Nobody has done this with any of the Quake engine games yet, but he hopes to see it happen someday.

 

As an aside, he noted that most companies are too secretive with their source code. "It's not about the magic in the source code," he says, it's about the tons of little decisions coders make along the way to producing a finished game. It's all in the execution.

...

When asked about the differences in platforms, Carmack noted that there's less of a distinction between developing for the next-gen consoles as there is for this generation. The difference between the Xbox and the PS2 was massive, but going back and forth between the Xbox 360 and the PS3 looks to be less of a problem. (Although still difficult.)

...

 

So, Sony's PS3 might end up being an open platform, much like the PC, or Apple ][. Microsoft will never loosen the reins on the 360, so it will continue to be a closed shop; that's only going to hurt the digidiversity of the universe.

[mkreku]

It's really ironic that the same guy that made Doom 3 is talking about how people aren't interested in advanced AI in their computer games. Hello? Doom 3 sucked a$$ because of everyone learning the scripts after 15 minutes, making the 'scares' annoying and not at all scary. Imagine if they had let the monsters in Doom 3 loose with very advanced AI instead, so they could plan ahead and attack the player at their most opportune moment. Gee, wonder what players would prefer..

[metadigital]

Yeah, I noticed the obvious bias and outright propaganda in his little speech, and his total disdain for AI and Physics engines, i.e. the stuff his engine doesn't do (and those competitors that keep their engines secret!).

 

Still, it's interesting to hear his take on the next gen consoles.

[EnderAndrew]

I still want to see what people do with an open-source Quake 3 engine.

[metadigital]

"... Nobody has done this with any of the Quake engine games yet, but he hopes to see it happen someday. ..."

 

I wonder why not?

[Darque]

AI driven > Scripted

[metadigital]

AI driven > Scripted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't expect the Pope to advocate the vitures of Islam, though.

 

Little ol' Carmack ain't going to stand up at Quakecon and say "Hey, guys, even though graphics are cool an' all, I've been chasing my tail for five years needlessly; we should have been developing a realisitic phyiscs engine, or even taking a decent stab at AI."

 

[alanschu]

Just an interesting tidbit, but I'm taking my first formal course in Artificial Intelligence this semester.

 

The very first lecture contained an interesting point regarding trends since the 90s in AI:

 

"Relying less on logic and more on probability theory and statistics."

[kumquatq3]