What games are you looking forward to?

[Epiphany]

Why is that? (Although I never heard it in development for the PS3 either)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Many rumors, but nothing confirmed as to why development for it didn't happen.

 

Rumors revolve around:

 

No HDD for the console

Too difficult to develop for

Not port friendly enough

MS paid money for console exclusivity (makes sense, but Bethesda made it a point before it was officially announced for X360 that it would appear on all possible next gen consoles) - so this rumor is harder to follow due to the conflicting ideals.

 

In my opinion, based on what I know about Cell, and what I've read from IBM techs on Cell and Xenon I believe it didn't happen because of the weak integer performance of the PS3. Seeing as how Oblivion has this new radiant AI system, the coding for it is most likely integer/logic heavy, that being the case, I can see how they could have run into serious difficulty getting the entire game to run smoothly on the console.

[alanschu]

How is the radiant AI system supposed to work?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

How is the radiant AI system supposed to work?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

NPCs will move around and kick cats.

[Epiphany]

How is the radiant AI system supposed to work?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It deals with lightly to non-scripted AI routines that adapt on the fly causing any NPC to instantly adapt to its surroundings.

 

Simple scenario is NPC needs to get from A to B - while getting there, something hampers the NPC's progress. The AI will adapt to the surroundings and calculate how the NPC should react given the circumstances, whether it be another NPC wanting to talk to them, objects in the way, or perhaps your player character. I know it sounds simple, but it's supposed to be ground breaking in the way the NPC's deal with everything.

 

Every enemy and NPC will have this radiant AI, and enemies will go to great lengths to follow you, cut you off, flank you, and do whatever they can in order to out "think" you.

 

Here's a copy/paste from one of the Team Diaries for Oblivion - mostly about combat, but you get a small sample of the AI involvement in the game. Supposedly it goes much, much deeper, but they haven't released any specific examples at this time.

 

"You're walking through a seedy part of a town in Western Cyrodiil. People mill about, some engaged in conversation, others minding their own business out on their own errands. Suddenly, an ugly man decides he doesn't like you. Maybe he's drunk, maybe he's just a bully, maybe he's just showing off in front of his friends -- but for whatever reason, he has taken your measure and decided he can best you.

 

He comes charging at you, with a nasty looking mace in his hand and a look of hatred on his face. Onlookers move back to make room for what should be an entertaining fight.

 

Quickly drawing your sword and shield, you wheel around to face him. He's upon you pretty quickly though, and you barely have time to raise your shield (hold right mouse button) before his first blow thunders down upon you.

 

But you block well, and as he recoils from the collision, you quickly perform left & right slashes with your sword (two clicks of the left mouse button, about a second apart). The bully realizes this isn't going to be easy.

 

He backs off a bit, and starts dodging around you. First to the left, then to the right. You maneuver to keep him in view, looking for an opening. Suddenly he steps back, raises his mace in both hands, and steps forward, bringing the mace towards your head in a crushing blow!

 

But you're quick -- you step to the side as he attacks. As he passes by, you execute a spinning maneuver and slash him in the side (hold left mouse button and left maneuver key). The hit is solid, and your foe staggers from the blow.

 

But it's not over yet. The bully swings his mace wildly -- his first swing misses, but the next one connects for a blow that sends you staggering. Pressing his advantage, the bully bears down on you with a power attack of his own. OUCH. This isn't going well. You take a glance at your health meter; it's getting a bit low. You quickly back up out of the bully's reach and raise your shield (hold right mouse button).

 

He's hurting, too. You circle each other for a time, looking for an opening, trying to recover some fatigue. Finally the bully charges forward with a devastating overhead blow, perhaps hoping to break your shield. But the shield holds and the recoil send him staggering back. This is your chance! You perform a mighty forward power attack (hold the left mouse button, press forward) and connect solidly. The blow staggers your foe once again, and you perform 3 slashing attacks in rapid succession (three taps on the left mouse button, about a second apart), and finally the bully collapses to the ground, defeated.

 

The crowd disperses, going back to their own business."

[Guest Fishboot]

How is the radiant AI system supposed to work?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's like having the fluctuating Needs bars from The Sims on all of the NPCs. Obviously not the same ones, of course (I doubt Oblivion residents will accidentally pee on themselves), but the same general principle. I.E. if the NPC gets sleepy, he'll go home and sleep - it doesn't need to be scripted. If he gets hungry he'll go to his pantry, if he's out of food he'll go to the baker's. That kind of thing. I think there are some properties of Radiant AI that facilitate things like NPC stealing (Like, a hungry but broke NPC might steal a loaf of bread while the baker is away).

 

But the draws of Radiant are:

 

1) Cuts down on scripting work. Plop in an NPC with a few properties and you're done, which means you can populate a world more richly.

2) Emergent behavior of systems of NPCs may provide an organic, natural sense of society, while requiring little script work.

 

I'm interested to see how it ends up working. I think the dream of Radiant might take a few games to hammer out, really - I suspect at least one or two places in Oblivion will have "Radiant breakdowns" that have the NPCs doing really weird things based on some burp in their AI.

[Epiphany]

I'm interested to see how it ends up working. I think the dream of Radiant might take a few games to hammer out, really - I suspect at least one or two places in Oblivion will have "Radiant breakdowns" that have the NPCs doing really weird things based on some burp in their AI.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm really hoping that RAI being such a focal point, that they really dive deep into playtesting for all areas where RAI is heavily used.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I think there are some properties of Radiant AI that facilitate things like NPC stealing (Like, a hungry but broke NPC might steal a loaf of bread while the baker is away).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So, if we were to block Vivec's access to the remaining parts of the city, he would go on a starving frenzy and start robbing food out of everyone then being attacked by guards.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Radiant AI - yes, I'm interested to see how it works out, too, but with some trepidation. Are you going to handle 'important' NPCs, important for the story I mean, with the same system? If so, you're running the risk they might get arrested or killed randomly while the player is in another part of town. If not, then any NPC who seems to be behaving in a 'radiant AI' manner is automatically signalled as unimportant, destroying the illusion of a vibrant world that you're trying to create.

 

In Morrowind, people in Balmora kept falling into the river - luckily they seem to be able to swim indefinitely, but this kind of glitch can cause problems if characters are reacting to each other in unscripted ways.

 

I'm also interested to see if the dialogue options will be able to respond to events that have occurred due to the AI. If the baker has had his bread stolen, will he mention it? Will the crowd be nervous talking to the guy who just beat some random drunk to a pulp?

[Guest Fishboot]

So, if we were to block Vivec's access to the remaining parts of the city, he would go on a starving frenzy and start robbing food out of everyone then being attacked by guards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have no idea how well we'll be able to game it. They might add some wussified contraints to the AI for important NPCs. But I think it's pretty obvious that this is the ultimate next step beyond NPCs just standing in one spot forever (with the alternative being complex scripting work for the most mundane interactions with the world) - the only question is how many games will it take for it to be 100% satisfactory and functional. Bethesda wants to fly their kite the first trip out.

[alanschu]

Sounds like Radiant's gonna need a heavily dynamic distribution functions to determine the appropriate actions. Multiplied by I would imagine quite a large number of in game characters that will utilize it.

 

 

 

 

Constantly updating the statistical methods of decision making for many, many characters....sounds expensive.

[Epiphany]

Sounds like Radiant's gonna need a heavily dynamic distribution functions to determine the appropriate actions.  Multiplied by I would imagine quite a large number of in game characters that will utilize it.

 

 

 

 

Constantly updating the statistical methods of decision making for many, many characters....sounds expensive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hence the reasoning why the game requires massive integer/logic performance from the hardware running.

[alanschu]

Sounds like Radiant's gonna need a heavily dynamic distribution functions to determine the appropriate actions.  Multiplied by I would imagine quite a large number of in game characters that will utilize it.

 

 

Constantly updating the statistical methods of decision making for many, many characters....sounds expensive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hence the reasoning why the game requires massive integer/logic performance from the hardware running.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Although if it's going to use distribution functions and random variables to determine it's outcome, it'll actually also be quite floating point intensive. Virtually, all statistical analyses for AI is. The actual choice is "simple" logic, but determining which action the NPC takes is not. There's only so much you can abstract continuous random variables into a discrete form. Unless the game is planning on having a uniform or perhaps multinomial distribution. But then that would make the NPC decisions more random than they probably should be.

 

A lot of the decision making in the finite state machines or screwy-louie Markov Chains utilize continuous random variables, which deal exclusively with floating point numbers.

 

Greg Entis of EA mentioned the following in an interview with Gamespy:

 

Some of the AI may actually end up using floating points, especially when you're using statistical AI and processing. Floating point is going to help all that.

 

If you want to have the NPCs base their decisions on probabilities which are affected by a large variety of variables, a statistical approach to AI is very likely going to be required, lest you abstract it and result in more erratic and bizarre behaviours.

 

 

In fact, I found the whole question that the above quote came from quite interesting.

 

GameSpy: Is PlayStation 3 more powerful than 360?

 

 

Entis: Well, I don't think any of us are really ready to say for sure. There's no final hardware specs on any of the systems [at the time of this interview].

 

Sony will have more processing power. There's no question about that. Then the arguments are about how easy it will be for people to get to and use it. The extra processing power will help. I think a lot of what we've been talking about in terms of dynamics is that physical simulations, fluid dynamics and to a certain extent AI. Some of the AI may actually end up using floating points, especially when you're using statistical AI and processing. Floating point is going to help all that.

 

The other place that I think floating points will help is less relevant to consumers. I think floating point will help with the process of building games. I think we'll see much more procedurally generated assets. So we'll see textures, noise patterns, and animation with some components that are procedurally generated. We'll see models procedurally generated in some cases, particularly when there are very large scale worlds with a lot of variety.

[Epiphany]

Although if it's going to use distribution functions and random variables to determine it's outcome, it'll actually also be quite floating point intensive.  Virtually, all statistical analyses for AI is.  The actual choice is "simple" logic, but determining which action the NPC takes is not.  There's only so much you can abstract continuous random variables into a discrete form.  Unless the game is planning on having a uniform or perhaps multinomial distribution.  But then that would make the NPC decisions more random than they probably should be.

 

I believe there is far more code than simple "choice" strings that create a fully dynamic and robust AI. The way games are generally architectured, almost exclusively pool their AI into logic, which falls under integer. With FP, you have far too much overhead and CPU cycles to achieve effects that can be done via integer. If FP were so powerful, entire games would be coded on the GPU - for all platforms. Floating point, as it is though, has this large overhead that simply creates an environment more complicated than it needs to be, or, in my opinion, an environment that any coder would try not to create in excess for that very reason.

 

Greg Entis of EA mentioned the following in an interview with Gamespy:

 

Some of the AI may actually end up using floating points, especially when you're using statistical AI and processing. Floating point is going to help all that.

 

If you want to have the NPCs base their decisions on probabilities which are affected by a large variety of variables, a statistical approach to AI is very likely going to be required, lest you abstract it and result in more erratic and bizarre behaviours.

 

 

In fact, I found the whole question that the above quote came from quite interesting.

 

GameSpy: Is PlayStation 3 more powerful than 360?

 

 

Entis: Well, I don't think any of us are really ready to say for sure. There's no final hardware specs on any of the systems [at the time of this interview].

 

Sony will have more processing power. There's no question about that. Then the arguments are about how easy it will be for people to get to and use it. The extra processing power will help. I think a lot of what we've been talking about in terms of dynamics is that physical simulations, fluid dynamics and to a certain extent AI. Some of the AI may actually end up using floating points, especially when you're using statistical AI and processing. Floating point is going to help all that.

 

The other place that I think floating points will help is less relevant to consumers. I think floating point will help with the process of building games. I think we'll see much more procedurally generated assets. So we'll see textures, noise patterns, and animation with some components that are procedurally generated. We'll see models procedurally generated in some cases, particularly when there are very large scale worlds with a lot of variety.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It appears as though Greg himself is just "thinking" it will happen. So, as of that interview, it doesn't appear as though developers are taking advantage of (or willing to) the additional FPU performance. It's simply not the way games are architectured, and I honestly believe the only time we'll see it, is on a game for the PS3 that's in development for many, many, many years.

 

It's a taxing performance that is simply not an ideal angle to approach game structure.

 

edit: I am in no way trying to downplay FLOP performance, because it's a vital aspect of the way games are designed. Without it, graphics would not evolve. But the load balance between flop and integer greatly favors integer code, and once you factor out the "graphics" aspect of what's being dumped on the GPU, the balance shifts drastically in favor of integer performance.

[alanschu]

I would think the GPUs are entirely too specialized to simply have them become the general purpose chip to be utilized for the FPU performance. Furthermore, if GPUs were that versatile and powerful in their FPU performance, I doubt CPU manufacturers would worry about having strong FPU performance if they felt developers would utilize the GPU instead.

 

GPUs are exceptionally powerful, but they're still one trick ponies. Their entire deisgn is around graphics. Worrying about all the geometry, transformations IS floating point extensive, and it's finalized with the integer-intensive rendering. But the instruction set and design is specifically geared towards graphics. If it was as easy as you indicate to merely offload the instructions, then they'd already be doing it for Physics. Physics is also floating point extensive, and as we get to game environments with destructable terrain (like Company of Heroes, which is going to be excessively destructive), then the physics load could get quite expensive. But they don't talk about offloading that stuff onto the graphics card. It's why there's design plans for a Physics Processing Unit (coined PPU). If they could just offload onto the GPU....they would.

 

It also makes an assumption that the GPU has resources to spare, given the state of graphics today.

 

Floating point, as it is though, has this large overhead

Hence why CPU manufacturers look to improve it.

 

 

Also, analyzing how much of the code is integer and floating point does not tell the entire story. You are correct in stating that a floating point operation take more cycles. If you have a game with 20% of its code floating point instructions and 80% integer instructions, and I work some magic and create a silly scenario where those 20% are all division, and the 80% are all addition, you'll still get a CPU load that spends way more time on floating point instructions rather than integer instructions. Of course this example is a little far fetched, and the same can be said for integer division (divison sucks....it's like 39 clock cycles per division).

 

I also think it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy with floating point and integer performance. Simply stating that code for games is X floating point and Y integer could very well be a reflection of the CPU. With all the work done to help improve floating point performance through SSE/3DNow! as well as architecture approaches such as allowing non-related floating point operations to be prefetched prior to instruction to keep the FPU in use, I would bet that games today feature far more floating point operations than they did 10 years ago (ignoring graphics).

 

As more FPU performance becomes available, the necessity to abstract a floating point problem into an integer problem becomes less necessary. They also would allow for better machine learning (i.e. statistical AI).

 

I believe there is far more code than simple "choice" strings that create a fully dynamic and robust AI.

 

Analyzing Probability Distribution Functions and their implementations for decision making is not just "simple choice strings." Go to an AI conference and make that claim. It'd be like going to an Astronomy conference and saying how much you like Astrology.

 

And besides....isn't AI really just making realistic choices?

 

 

 

And even still, he still said the PS3 is more powerful. "There's no question about that."

[LadyCrimson]

Hellgate:London, by Flagship Studios

 

I don't know if I'm actually 'looking forward' to this game or not, but I will be watching it closely as they develop it.

All the brains from Blizzard North are there....1st person 'highly randomized' action-RPG....yes, I'll be interested.

[PhantomJedi]

Civilization IV

 

"Addiction" Trailer

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

None.

[Ohma]

Didn't you already say that?

[mkreku]

I just saw the game trailer for Rogue Galaxy (PS2) and embarrasingly enough I now have to say it's on my wanted list. I hate when I fall for hype :">

 

To my defence, I have to add that it looks a lot like a japanese version of Knights of the Old Republic! Only with a lot more CGI and meaningless dialogue (just a guess)..

[jodo kast 5]

The complete version of Kotor2, Kotor3, SW Battlefront2,SW Empire at War, and anything that has to do with the army and guns

[Reveilled]

Hmm...

 

NWN 2 and Civ IV I s'pose. I can't afford to buy a console right now, and few PC games interest me at the moment.

[PhantomJedi]

Star Wars Battlefront II

[alanschu]

Could probably add Farenheit/Indigo Prophecy to that list of mine.

 

I just played the demo and it seems like a neat story.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Could probably add Farenheit/Indigo Prophecy to that list of mine.

 

I just played the demo and it seems like a neat story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same here. Good demo. With this and Dreamfall in the works, it might be a good year for adventures.

 

They need to do something about the interface, though - honestly, the left/right quick clicking thing is ridiculous. They also need to make sure there's a decent game to match the story. I just finished Still Life - nice characters, nice story, where's the game?

[Baley]

3D **** 3