Mod Makers Beware.

[metadigital]

In a series called "The Truth about Killing" Grub Smith (he of Travel Sick fame) subjected himself to various tests.

 

The gist of it was that in WWII only about 2% of soldiers were effective at killing.

 

One of the tests he did was like the scene from clockwork orange. You know where your eyes are held open and your bombarded with images of death (in this case it was unedited footage of the Rwanda attrocities).

 

This left him deeply disturbed (and if you know anything about Grub he's done some out there stuff).

 

He also did the are you a sociopath test where you get a mixture of pleasent and unpleasent images and a noise between each. Socipaths dont empathise so they see other people the same as they would see an object like a fork or a paper target. For a sociopath there would be no difference between shooting a virtual person and real one.

 

He then signed up for Army training , and through a mixture of "video games" and SIM exercises (apparently the closest you can get without being shot for real) which use paintball bullets. After that he was absolutely itching for a fight.

 

BTW these days about 80% of soldiers are effective killers.

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Firstly, although interesting, this is still anecdotal. All it shows is that there is a correlation between Grub and commiting violence, either virtually or IRL. Considering "he's done some out[-]there stuff", I think that qualifies him for special consideration, anyway.

 

Secondly, being subjected to real images of pain and horror, like Rwandan attrocities, is completely different to playing a game; remember the magic circle:

...

8. Video game play is desensitizing.

 

Classic studies of play behavior among primates suggest that apes make basic distinctions between play fighting and actual combat. In some circumstances, they seem to take pleasure wrestling and tousling with each other. In others, they might rip each other apart in mortal combat. Game designer and play theorist Eric Zimmerman describes the ways we understand play as distinctive from reality as entering the "magic circle." The same action

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Oh. My. God.  Just *imagining* it gets me emotional.  Very likely the first thing I'll think of would be the family of the person...as it would likely strike up horrible memories that I endured when my brother was killed in a motorcycle accident.  I have a grasp of reality.  And I have an idea on how I will react if someone was shot right in front of me.

 

I get emotional watching ACTORS that portray realistic events getting shot (i.e. Saving Private Ryan, or Band of Brothers).  Watching a nameless soldier, wounded crying out "Momma" is horrifying.  It's also why I love the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan (and virtually all of Band of Brothers).  Given the testimonials from D-Day veterans about how real the scene was depicted, I get a sense of that being what actually happened.  And I don't feel bad just for the heroic Americans and whatnot....but also for the Germans in the pillboxes that get torched alive by a flamethrower.

 

  I have no idea what you're referring to.  To my calling you an elitist???

 

Really?  Therapy, or Psychology?  They are to VERY different things.  If it's really as big of a deal as you make it out to be, then the activists would be letting us know all about it.

 

They're not actually stabbing someone in the eye though.  They're taking pleasure out of playing a video game.

 

Which has nothing to do with our discussion about video game violence.  I agree with your notion that fear of punishment stops a lot of violent crime.  You're also downplaying the humanity of it all.  See how someone reacts when they are responsible for the death of someone.  Go interview the guy that hit my brother, and see how happy of an event that was for him (even though it was an accident...neither side was at fault).

 

You make it sound like killing a person is an easy thing to do.

 

When did things turn to sex?  I thought we were discussing the chap that posted those myths.  And the correlations still don't prove anything aside from there being a relationship.  And even then it doesn't prove that because the relationship could be due to a third, unseen variable.

 

Furthermore, proof is never required for acts to be taken seriously.  All it takes is a bunch of self-righteous elitists that think they know better than other people to insist it be taken seriously.

 

EDIT:  FIXED UBB QUOTE TAGS

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Thats very comendable of you.

 

Yes, dont worry it's an in joke

 

It occasionally makes the news but therapy isnt generally something that people like to crow about.

 

No it goes beyond playing a video game. They are taking pleasure in watching the act played out even if its in a virtual form. If they were simply playing the game they would use whatever was to hand,or the most functional weapon for a specifc task (not search out the weapons that caused the most gruesome deaths).

 

It's suprisingly , easy , especially if you have been trained to a point where you react on instinct. It's the living with it afterwards that gives most people the nightmares.

 

Thats another missing piece of the puzzle, most people will never be in a situation similiar to the ones depicted in games anyway so it's not possible to know how much of a trigger constant exposure to those situations can have.

 

Well the original topic is about sex (and developers slipping things past the censors).

 

I disagree. You may convince people who want to share your view anyway without proof, but the proof you can gather the more you can convince people who dont share you view. Eventually there comes a point where even those opposed to it would have to acknowledge the case.

 

If you think it's in my interests to prove video games are bad your way off base

[SteveThaiBinh]

I posted this before when we were discussing very similar issues. If you're at a Uni or otherwise have access to research publications, there are some intersting articles listed here. My impression from skimming a handful of them is that there isn't a clear link between playing video games and performing violent acts, but there are subtler links between playing video games and aggressive feelings.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Grub made a classic mistake in performing this "experiment."  He performed it on himself.

 

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He was just the test subject. The experiment was based on something the US army may or may not have done to desensitise soldiers. As you can see from the result it had the opposite effect.

[metadigital]

...

It occasionally makes the news but therapy isnt generally something that people like to crow about.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think that is true. In the US, there is little or no stigma attached to therapy especially in the media; to a large portion of the population it is regarded as normal mental hygiene to visit a therapist regularly, just like it is a good idea to see a doctor or a dentist. There are an enormous amount of psychologists in all parts of society: at schools, in the Human Resources departments of companies ... (they're bloody everywhere!).

[metadigital]

I posted this before when we were discussing very similar issues.  If you're at a Uni or otherwise have access to research publications, there are some intersting articles listed here.  My impression from skimming a handful of them is that there isn't a clear link between playing video games and performing violent acts, but there are subtler links between playing video games and aggressive feelings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... But no-one is really evil, are they Steve: just misunderstood. That poor serial killer was just not given a nice upbringing.

[alanschu]

It occasionally makes the news but therapy isnt generally something that people like to crow about.

Therapy statistics would be a stellar way for the activists to demonstrate how bad violent video games are.

 

No it goes beyond playing a video game. They are taking pleasure in watching the act played out even if its in a virtual form. If they were simply playing the game they would use whatever was to hand,or the most functional weapon for a specifc task (not search out the weapons that caused the most gruesome deaths).

 

No they wouldn't. They'd explore all options, simply for no other reason than to get the most out of the game. It does not go beyond playing a video game, especially when Manhunt awards more points for more gruesome deaths. It could just be that they want the high score.

 

 

It's suprisingly , easy , especially if you have been trained to a point where you react on instinct. It's the living with it afterwards that gives most people the nightmares.

 

Fortunately, playing video games does not give them that training. Clicking a mouse button != pulling a trigger. Despite the millions of rounds of ammunition I've fired in video games, I still jammed a Glock pistol the first time I fired it because I didn't know how to shoot it properly.

 

Thats another missing piece of the puzzle, most people will never be in a situation similiar to the ones depicted in games anyway so it's not possible to know how much of a trigger constant exposure to those situations can have.

 

 

He was just the test subject. The experiment was based on something the US army may or may not have done to desensitise soldiers. As you can see from the result it had the opposite effect.

 

What do you mean? You said he was itching for a fight.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Therapy statistics would be a stellar way for the activists to demonstrate how bad violent video games are.

 

No they wouldn't.  They'd explore all options, simply for no other reason than to get the most out of the game.  It does not go beyond playing a video game, especially when Manhunt awards more points for more gruesome deaths.  It could just be that they want the high score.

 

Fortunately, playing video games does not give them that training.  Clicking a mouse button != pulling a trigger.  Despite the millions of rounds of ammunition I've fired in video games, I still jammed a Glock pistol the first time I fired it because I didn't know how to shoot it properly.

 

What do you mean?  You said he was itching for a fight.

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Best of luck getting them.

 

Except they didnt. You can try to excuse their behaviour but the bottom line is they were getting a kick out of the gruesome deaths.

 

With games getting more and more realistic it's only a matter of time. You can learn some quite useful stuff from games. Once someone figures out a way for you to move around hands free there is nothing stopping you playing an FPS with a "real" weapon in your hand. You already can in those on rails shooters.

 

No thats what he said. If the program comes on again I'll take a note of the whole summation.This was after he had taken part in some of the armies training methods.

[thepixiesrock]

I leave for seven hours and the thread goes out of controll. I can't keep up with it any longer. You win this time Obsidian Forums, you win this time...

[metadigital]

I leave for seven hours and the thread goes out of controll.  I can't keep up with it any longer.  You win this time Obsidian Forums, you win this time...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sleep is for wimps.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I leave for seven hours and the thread goes out of controll.  I can't keep up with it any longer.  You win this time Obsidian Forums, you win this time...

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It's kind of gotten side tracked.

 

If there are any further developements in the investigation into what exactly hot cofee is and what it means I'll post them up.

 

The other stuff is just the usual does video game violence cause real violence, which is propably something you've seen a 100 times before anyway.

[alanschu]

Best of luck getting them.

 

If the stats are so hard to get, then how do you know how prevalent therapy is for video game related issues.

 

 

Except they didnt. You can try to excuse their behaviour but the bottom line is they were getting a kick out of the gruesome deaths.

 

They were getting a kick out of playing a game though, "killing" non-living polygons. You can't say that Wolf3d doesn't count because it has bad graphics...especially considering the graphics at the time were awesome and looked more like a person than anything else at the time...and then say that suddenly we can't distinguish between polygons and reality.

 

 

With games getting more and more realistic it's only a matter of time. You can learn some quite useful stuff from games. Once someone figures out a way for you to move around hands free there is nothing stopping you playing an FPS with a "real" weapon in your hand. You already can in those on rails shooters.

 

Shooting a light gun still does not provide training for firing an actual gun. And furhtermore, how useful would this "training" be, since you'd be stuck in one spot.

 

No thats what he said. [:angry:] If the program comes on again I'll take a note of the whole summation.This was after he had taken part in some of the armies training methods.

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Don't nitpick on a mere technicality. YOU still posted it. And it doesn't change the fact that your post mentioned he was itching for a fight at one moment, but then at the next moment claim the desensitizing didn't work.

 

But I guess if that's all you got

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

They were getting a kick out of playing a game though, "killing" non-living polygons.  You can't say that Wolf3d doesn't count because it has bad graphics...especially considering the graphics at the time were awesome and looked more like a person than anything else at the time...and then say that suddenly we can't distinguish between polygons and reality.

 

Shooting a light gun still does not provide training for firing an actual gun.  And furhtermore, how useful would this "training" be, since you'd be stuck in one spot.

 

Don't nitpick on a mere technicality.  YOU still posted it.

 

But I guess if that's all you got

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Then why are video games striving to be more and more immersive? That is to blur the line between your reality and the reality of the game. It dosnt matter if they looked more like a person at the time. They still looked nothing like a person. Today graphics are almost photorealistic. They look like real people.

 

Maybe not, but it's a step closer than "firing" a mouse.

 

It's hardly a technicality you had it backwards. You were quoting the wrong part of the post for one thing.

 

I'm not trying to prove the case for the link I thought I was pretty clear about that.

 

I'm much more concerned that:

 

A. Things are properly rated and the ratings are taken seriously by the retailers.

B. Anyone who tries to get around the ratings via unlocked content gets a very hard financial slap.

[metadigital]

you're forgetting the "magic circle" again, aren't you?

[EnderAndrew]

The title is misleading.

 

Rockstar put in the sex-game that got everyone so upset and left in the code. Mod-makers aren't really responsible for this whole mess.

[Meshugger]

This thread makes me want to kill people.

[alanschu]

you're forgetting the "magic circle" again, aren't you?

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Many people seem to :D

[Llyranor]

We needs a law that bans procreation.

[Nartwak]

This thread makes me want to kill people.

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This thread makes me want to pretend to kill people by killing life-like mannequins that cry and bleed and scream and soil themselves as the vestige of their simulated life drains away.

[EnderAndrew]

Ironically enough I highly recommend some GTA action. It works rather well.

[metadigital]

Ironically enough I highly recommend some GTA action.  It works rather well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With or without the "hot coffee" minigame?

 

It would only be a problem if the minigame allowed you to strangle and disembowel the girl, whilst raping her eyesockets. I think that should be at least a 13+.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

It would only be a problem if the minigame allowed you to strangle and disembowel the girl, whilst raping her eyesockets. I think that should be at least a 13+.

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Add a minigame where you can floss with her entrails and I'm sold.

[Nartwak]

It would only be a problem if the minigame allowed you to strangle and disembowel the girl, whilst raping her eyesockets. I think that should be at least a 13+.

Now you're forgetting the magic circle.

[metadigital]

Add a minigame where you can floss with her entrails and I'm sold.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wouldn't that be contra-indicated for dental hygiene? I mean, surely the plaque-forming bacteria in between your teeth would be able to nourish themselves on the vetiges of entrail left therein?

It would only be a problem if the minigame allowed you to strangle and disembowel the girl, whilst raping her eyesockets. I think that should be at least a 13+.

Now you're forgetting the magic circle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, yes! The magic circle: the stress ball of the tehcnology age!

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Wouldn't that be contra-indicated for dental hygiene? I mean, surely the plaque-forming bacteria in between your teeth would be able to nourish themselves on the vetiges of entrail left therein?

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I'd be sure to wash it neatly with the blood of all the carnage and mayhem I'd inflict next. +10 Rating for life!