That is true.

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Thanks! :D

Are there objective traits to good writing?  Or is it mostly just subjective?

 

I have never taken a creative writing course.

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There are general objective traits to good writing. You should take one, regardless of your area of study. They can be very fun and very aggravating. Just stay away from Poetry unless you want to erode your sanity.

 

 

I've considered taking one, as ultimately I'd love to get into game development.

 

The problem is that I'm concerned about the workload for the rest of my classes. Although I may just audit it, so that I don't have to worry about credit. Wouldn't want to dampen my fun by getting crap crap marks.

"I don't think PS:T and KotOR2 suffered from the same problem. PS:T had great dialogue, flavor text, and story-telling throughout. "

 

when ps:t had characters explain their philosophies, it got a bit... stoopid. comic book stoopid. which maybe is ok given the audience. in ps:t it were also, to a certain degree, necessary as tthe setting were built 'pon a "philosophy for dummies" kinda thing and with a crpg you not always got the time (or the audience) to allow folks to experience... sometimes you gotta take the short-cut and just tell.

 

nevertheless, reading coaxmetal dialogue were a chore. it were just awful. *click, click, click* were dozens of such encounters in ps:t, and while some were necessary, (such as when you get introduced to various factions, ) others were just lame.

 

compare dialogues in ps:t to those in "grendel." better yet, compare to "rosencrantz and guildenstern are dead." a writer can get as philosophical and profound as they wish to w/o resorting to their characters spouting profound speeches... and if a speech is necessary, an audience will accept it better from a character they know as a person, to give the speech context and simply 'cause we is more likely to care 'bout what a known character is saying. you see henry struggle with being a king, sacrificing friendship and lives in the name of some goal that even he ain't certain of no more. you spend the better part of an hour watching henry laugh and cry and bleed and you is maybe more willing to listen to his speech. but place henry's pre-battle speech at start o' henry V...

 

 

 

when ps:t had human characters involved in human activities and displaying human emotions, it were great. talk with morte after pillar of skulls. talk with dak'kon 'bout why he follows. talk with mebbeth after returning to sigil.

 

ps:t were a story 'bout a immortal guy wandering the planes, choosing 'tween philosophies and fighting bizarre creatures, etc.

 

whatever.

 

ultimately, every story worth telling is a human one and a familiar one. not matter if your protagonist is a overweight alcoholic anglican woman from podunk missouri or a quasi-sentient puddle of noxious gasses and frozen liquids existing in five dimensions simultaneously, 'cause in either case you is gonna have to try and make the reader care 'bout what is happening to the protagonist. the reader needs to empathize even if it is only enough to despise the character.

 

kotor2 had lots of characters making speeches with their dialogues... and people rarely make speeches when they talk with each other. even shakespeare rarely had his characters make speeches

HA! Good Fun!

 

p.s. keep in mind that when we talk 'bout speeches, we ain't necessarily talking 'bout length.  as we noted earlier, am more specifically referencing characters who make grand observations 'bout the nature of man or the universe in dialogues... try to be profound in a dialogue snippet w/o seeming ridiculous is almost impossible.

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Care to give an example?

HA! Good Fun!

 

p.s. keep in mind that when we talk 'bout speeches, we ain't necessarily talking 'bout length.  as we noted earlier, am more specifically referencing characters who make grand observations 'bout the nature of man or the universe in dialogues... try to be profound in a dialogue snippet w/o seeming ridiculous is almost impossible.

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Care to give an example?

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already did.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Care to give an example?

 

Azarkon: Good morning!

 

Baker: What is the nature of morning? Is it the breeze that subsides over the valley's end, or the light of a fresh new dawn? Is it the end of night, or the beginning of day? Neither, I say, for morning is a continuation, a phase in some great wheel unseen. And is not the dawn made only possible by the presence of night? That is the way of the world, my friend: balance, between day and night, good and evil... All things.

 

...

 

Oh, you were looking for dialogue from an actual game?

Care to give an example?

 

Oh, you were looking for dialogue from an actual game?

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Yeah.

Overall, Gromnir, how do you compare the writing in KotOR2 to the writing in PS:T? I ask this because you didn't address the issue.

 

Are there ways in which PS:T could have been improved? Of course. We have had the same discussion in more than one thread. Still, the writing in well done throughout the game, save in those areas where the writer could not control his exuberance. Nevertheless, something worse than a character giving a long winded speech is a character giving a long winded and poorly written speech.

 

If we care to dissect PS:T, that's fine. Not much fun, maybe, as we've always been quite similar in how we view the game. I'm comparing PS:T to KotOR2, however, and there we do seem to have different views. PS:T and KotOR2 had the same opportunity to convey something of the writer's philosophy, but I contend that PS:T did more with that opportunity. The fact that we get stuck clicking through several pages of dialogue many, many times throughout the game doesn't change the quality of the writing at any one point.

 

It's all about a comparison on my part, because we could make a multi-page thread concerning the writing in PS:T alone.

Reminds me of the rants at the end of both Metal Gear Solid 1 and 2. Hideo Kojima should stick to making games that are, well, games.

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If I posted two smileys in this post, would it make my post more profound and thorough than yours?

 

:darque: :darque:

...

[1]For the most part we're looking at mechanics for the game.  We want the focus to be on skills and attributes, and not the class.  So if a Fighter has the required skill values, he could bluff his way into a thieves guild, even though his class doesn't have to have "Rogue" anywhere in the title.  The advantage the Rogue would have however, would be that the Theiving skills are class skills, so it'd be more likely for a Rogue to travel that path.

 

[2]We also like the idea of utilizing skills and attributes as rolls and checks in dialogue.

 

[3]One thing we are also in favour of is no more of this "If you're evil you get to keep the phat lewt instead of returning it....but if you're good and return it you'll still get the phat lewt, or perhaps even fatter lewt" stuff.  We would like real consequences for the player's actions.  Excessive "niceness" could make some parts of the game more difficult since perhaps you spared someone that will later be a thorn in your side.  But at the same time, sparing a different person could net you an ally that will make things a bit easier than it would be otherwise.

...

[4]We're both big fans of PS:T, so we are planning the game to be have very deep party members and interactions.

 

[5]And no "being friends with everyone" stuff.  This likely goes more with the racist nature of the world.

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1. Good. I think this is a step in the right direction; the more I learn about humans and their skills, the more I find that there are no set "classes", more like attribute / feat groupings that can be regarded as classes, but there is no reason why (in unusual but not necessarily rare cases) a person of one particular "class" might be strong in a feat / attribute that isn't pertinent to their "class", and even poor at some that are. E.g. a fighter who has a high intelligence and can read several languages.

 

2. I can't emphasize my support for this enough; this is one technique that helps bring empathy and interest to the audience; their choices (in character creation) have a direct result on the narrative.

 

3. Yep, that always struck me as shallow and quite tedious. I'm sure if you retrieve the "Sword of Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggghhh", the Paladin Order will want it back, and not just give it to you for passing the test of retrieving it. Maybe they might allow you to visit their armourer, though, and get asword of your design that is almost as good ...

 

4. Yay! \o/

Are there objective traits to good writing?  Or is it mostly just subjective?

 

I have never taken a creative writing course.

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Very much so. Although you don't appear to be on your own in this forum in your inability to understand them, nor your seeming lack of appreciation for better craft. Still, everyone enjoys good writing, even if they can't explain what makes it good, or bad writing bad.

I just know there's some writing I like, and some writing I don't like.

 

 

I figured it'd have more to do with personal tastes though.

MCA actually showing up and reading a thread around here? I haven't seen the devs on these forums in a while, and ofcourse the one thread he reads is when I bust on him for Kreia's dialogue in the end.

MCA actually showing up and reading a thread around here?  I haven't seen the devs on these forums in a while, and ofcourse the one thread he reads is when I bust on him for Kreia's dialogue in the end.

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Quickly edit all your posts before he brings the ban-whip down on you.

<3 MCA \o/ ^^

I just know there's some writing I like, and some writing I don't like.

 

I figured it'd have more to do with personal tastes though.

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Yes and no.

 

There is no argument that Shakespeare or Dickens are excellent writers. The writing of (or attributed to) Shakespeare is still revered (even though quotes from it have been considered clich

MCA actually showing up and reading a thread around here?  I haven't seen the devs on these forums in a while, and ofcourse the one thread he reads is when I bust on him for Kreia's dialogue in the end.

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What? Where? Did he delete it?

 

Edit - Wait, did you just see that he was in the thread with the little tracking dealie at the bottom? Nevermind, i'm dumb.

If I posted two smileys in this post, would it make my post more profound and thorough than yours?

 

:darque: :darque:

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No, and I suggest you steer away from attempts at profundity.

Abuse is free. If you'd like thorough; arguments will cost nine fifty a minute.

If I may be allowed to go off-topic, I notice that Sawyer is now sporting his green designer color. Perhaps now he'll have "Designer" under his name. ...Or maybe "Obsidz VID" or some such.

I'm down with Obsidz VIP remaining his title for the forums

He's shucked the Obsidz VIP title for Senior Designer.

Nooooooooooooooooooo.

 

 

He's still Obsidz VIP in my book. There should be an option in "Board Options" that has a check box for whether or not J.E. Sawyer should be listed as Obsidz VIP.

Yups, he's now a green glowy... saw him on the who's online section.

Overall, Gromnir, how do you compare the writing in KotOR2 to the writing in PS:T?  I ask this because you didn't address the issue.

 

 

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is good reason we didn't answer. is how many different writers that worked on ps:t? kotor2? how many different and largely independent stories did ps:t and kotor2 have?

 

kreia, were a character we liked as much as any joinable character in ps:t... though on occasion her dialogue made us groan. on the other hand, fall-from-grace were just plain crap... a one-trick pony (story wise,) and that trick were pretty pathetic. the mystery that is woman... bah.

 

overall, ps:t is our favorite crpg, but it had many flaws, and much of the writing were... hokey. nevertheless, in spite of the bad, the good in ps:t were very good.

 

...

 

is an exercise some creative writing teachers use for those young writers who seems overly impressed with their own fortune cookie philosophies... an exercise we highly recommend. tell the disabled writer to rewrite their story (or a portion of the story,) as if they were writing to an 8 year old audience.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"tell the disabled writer to rewrite their story (or a portion of the story,) as if they were writing to an 8 year old audience."

 

This is a clever idea. Even if you intend a more mature work, starting with an easily explained premise isn't a bad idea at all.

 

As for Kreia, she's the perfect example of your own point. Her dialogue is often forced and far too full of meaning. However, she does serve to move the story. The design team relied on Kreia quite a bit during the game.

 

On the other hand, part of the reason I hate Kreia is that I like playing the good guy. She's enough to make a good guy feel dirty, she is.