The Korriban tomb, and the vision of Revan.

[metadigital]

Well, that makes a bit more sense, I suppose (only a bit, though). So why would the intelligence / soul inside the clone let the emperor do this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They don't get to have a choice. The clones are "grown" in tanks and are never allowed to obtain consciousness until Palpatine wants to jump into one. This way he can die about as many times as he likes and still survive in a new body. Luke's apparent fall to the dark side is really just a pretense to get close to those tanks so he can destroy them, though Luke doesn't resist the dark side quite as well as he thought, either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is not in the standard RotJ film that was released on DVD, I take it ... :D

[Grant Dempsey]

Yes, but don't you see that this is precisely why Nihilus is connected to the Exile - he is, to use your own terms, the part of the Force that the Exile rejected on Malachor V.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's simply difficult for me to embrace that idea because the Exile's loss was not described as though he lost a "part" of the Force or a "piece" of his own soul (figuratively on the latter, perhaps). It was said that he severed his connections and ties with the Force itself altogether.

 

And as for them both being tainted, that's another clue - the Exile isn't tainted, is he? He just lost his connection to the force, until the game begins. But as soon as he enters the republic again and so gets closer to Nihilus, poof, his force powers begin to return...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the Exile's sudden "reconnection" with the Force was briefly explained through Kreia's dialogue at one point. I think it was during the journey on the Ebon Hawk after leaving Peragus II. She said that the cause was his Force bond with her; he could feel the Force, distantly, through her. That spark of a distant connection was enough to get the Exile started on the path to building on his power once again, through Kreia's training and the other oddity he seemed to acquire from Malachor V (the ability to "feed" on death), even though he still seemed to lack any direct connection between the Force and his own being.

 

Still, the idea that Darth Nihilus carried some deeper, even more personal significance to the Exile is interesting. Personally, though, I would be more inclined to explore an idea along the lines of Darth Nihilus having been perhaps one of the Exile's Jedi comrades during the Mandalorians Wars with whom he shared a connection through the Force (as the Exile was prone to establishing) and, when so many other Jedi died at Malachor V and -- consequently -- pushed the Exile to cut himself off from the Force itself, the abrupt cut-off to the Force connection between he and the-man-who-would-become-Darth-Nihilus had a uniquely ill effect on the latter, which was what stripped him of his individuality or was at least what began that change within him.

 

From what was described in the game's dialogue, though, it seemed to me that, realistically, Darth Nihilus' loss of individuality was simply the result of his hunger's will consuming and overpowering his own.

[Sikon]

First Darth Malak, then the Mandalorian Wars, Kreia and your friends maybe a day afterwards and then a year later.

First of all, the "Darth Malak" period (the Jedi Civil War) follows the Mandalorian Wars, not precedes them.

Second, Malak was not Darth in the first vision - he was still a Jedi. That vision alludes the recruitment campaign for those Jedi who wanted to fight in the wars against the wishes of the Council. I think we can also conclude that Exile was personally recruited by Malak.

[EnderAndrew]

He was either directly recruited by Malak or Revan, though the cave suggests Malak moreso. It could be that the Exile was closer to Revan, but they wanted to save Revan for the final chamber of the cave.

[Grant Dempsey]

He was either directly recruited by Malak or Revan, though the cave suggests Malak moreso.  It could be that the Exile was closer to Revan, but they wanted to save Revan for the final chamber of the cave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They'd've also had a hard time giving Revan any spoken dialogue.

 

I'd say the Exile was certainly "close" enough to Revan to have seen him in person and spoken with him and whatnot, but I'm reluctant to say that they were close in the sense of any kind of friendship. Their relationship, in the sense of their outward interactions, seemed to have been described and hinted at as being more as that of simply commander and general, rather than of actual friends. From thoughts I've heard around forums on the 'net and from what I recall of the hints and clues given in the game itself, Revan had had his eye on the Exile for some time throughout the Mandalorian Wars (even so far as having actually wanted the Exile to return to Coruscant to confront the Jedi Council), even with the Exile entirely unaware of it at the time. For that revelation to have had the most impact, the Exile's relationship with Revan would have to have been relatively impartial from the Exile's end, I think: Builded more on respect, admiration, empathy with Revan's (apparent) cause, and "all business" loyalty at the time than on real personal fondness.

 

Still, it seemed clear enough that it was Malak whom was personally responsible for recruiting the Exile in the first place, not Revan.

[EnderAndrew]

I suppose you are right.

[Jediphile]

It's simply difficult for me to embrace that idea because the Exile's loss was not described as though he lost a "part" of the Force or a "piece" of his own soul (figuratively on the latter, perhaps). It was said that he severed his connections and ties with the Force itself altogether.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but don't forget that he cut those ties to separate himself from the darkness that his experiences and choices on Malachor V had bestowed upon him. My point is that this darkness or dark side is Nihilus in some form.

 

Actually, the Exile's sudden "reconnection" with the Force was briefly explained through Kreia's dialogue at one point. I think it was during the journey on the Ebon Hawk after leaving Peragus II. She said that the cause was his Force bond with her; he could feel the Force, distantly, through her. That spark of a distant connection was enough to get the Exile started on the path to building on his power once again, through Kreia's training and the other oddity he seemed to acquire from Malachor V (the ability to "feed" on death), even though he still seemed to lack any direct connection between the Force and his own being.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Still doesn't explain why this took a decade to happen. The Exile was plenty around jedi after his events on Malachor V, yet he didn't gain any force powers then. Why? And why didn't he form force bonds during his long seclusion? Surely there are force sensitive people pretty much wherever he went... Maybe not jedi or sith, but then force adepts of some kind. He didn't bond with them. He only bonded when returning to the Republic.

 

As for Kreia, it has been discussed and mused before just where she jumped into the whole plot. It seems Revan visited her before going to the unknown regions, but he left the responsibility of maintaining things in the republic (in the LS version) with T3. T3 locked the navi-computer, and T3 sought out the Exile, when things looked grim for the republic, so where did Kreia suddenly come from? I doubt she went with Revan and T3 to the unknown regions and then returned with T3, but she's on the Ebon Hawk, when T3 repairs it at the beginning of the game.

 

I find it quite possible that Kreia realized the whole situation from her association with Nihilus and wanted revenge. After all, Nihilus was the one to cast her out, so what does she do? She finds his "lost half" and manipulates him to a confrontation with Nihilus. If she knows that the Exile and Nihilus are the same, then she knows that whatever the result, it will be the end for Nihilus - if he kills his real self, then he ceases to be, and yet he cannot drain himself either. Therefore the Exile is the perfect key to her revenge against both Nihilus and the force itself.

 

Still, the idea that Darth Nihilus carried some deeper, even more personal significance to the Exile is interesting. Personally, though, I would be more inclined to explore an idea along the lines of Darth Nihilus having been perhaps one of the Exile's Jedi comrades during the Mandalorians Wars with whom he shared a connection through the Force (as the Exile was prone to establishing) and, when so many other Jedi died at Malachor V and -- consequently -- pushed the Exile to cut himself off from the Force itself, the abrupt cut-off to the Force connection between he and the-man-who-would-become-Darth-Nihilus had a uniquely ill effect on the latter, which was what stripped him of his individuality or was at least what began that change within him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not far from what I suggested, I think. In effect, the Exile denied the dark side within himself, so instead it "fled" to the dying body of another jedi, and that jedi would be someone close to the Exile, since that would make the connection stronger. The Exile's dark side then used that dying body as a host and revived it through the force. But it cannot make life where none exists, so it can only prolong the inevitable and not so much live as avoid dying. So the resulting being is closer to some form of undead and can only continue to exist by draining the life of others. It is probably not aware of this itself. When Nihilus drains Jedi, it's probably in the attempt to obtain genuine life for itself, futile as the attempt might be. It knows nothing of its true self or of the Exile. It only begins to sense that 'other self' when the Exile returns. And isn't it odd that all those Sith hunt the Exile as 'the last Jedi', when there are clearly plenty of other jedi still around (Vrook, Zez-Kai-Ell, Atris (well, after a fashion...), Vash (not yet dead at the time), Kavar, and likely several others too). That's probably because Nihilus senses the Exile much clearer than anyone else for good reason.

[EnderAndrew]

The Exile voluntarily cut himself off from the Force. He could have restored his connection, but choose not to. I think he needed some time to deal with what he had experienced in the Mandalorian Wars.

[Jediphile]

The Exile voluntarily cut himself off from the Force.  He could have restored his connection, but choose not to.  I think he needed some time to deal with what he had experienced in the Mandalorian Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He chose not to, right. But he didn't deal with the matter at all - he suppressed it. I see Nihilus as a sort of "force neurosis" that grew from that suppression.

[Grant Dempsey]

Still doesn't explain why this took a decade to happen. The Exile was plenty around jedi after his events on Malachor V, yet he didn't gain any force powers then. Why? And why didn't he form force bonds during his long seclusion? Surely there are force sensitive people pretty much wherever he went... Maybe not jedi or sith, but then force adepts of some kind. He didn't bond with them. He only bonded when returning to the Republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, of course, the easiest answer would be the fact that the Force bond between the Exile and Kreia was generally always portrayed as uniquely potent. It could be that "feeling the Force again through someone else" wouldn't've been possible through any less powerful a Force bond.

 

Beyond that, on the Trayus Core at Malachor V, Kreia hinted that she was directly responsible for "reconnecting" the Exile to the Force, with a line that went something like, "It was a mistake to bring the Force back to you, I see that now..." It could be possible that she forced the Force (err) through to the Exile through their bond.

[Grant Dempsey]

Err...I'm sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to clear something up.

 

Not far from what I suggested, I think. In effect, the Exile denied the dark side within himself, so instead it "fled" to the dying body of another jedi, and that jedi would be someone close to the Exile, since that would make the connection stronger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I didn't mean that any piece of the Exile's inner darkness or anything went into the-man-who-would-become-Darth-Nihilus, so much as just that the sudden severing of the Exile's Force bond with his comrade (because of the Exile's rejection of the Force itself) warped the man in some way.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Also HK tells you that Revan actually wanted the Exile to go back to the Council even though it was the Exile's choice and Malak hated the Exile for not going to the Unknown Regions with them and wanted him dead but Revan did not allow it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Huh?!?

 

Where did that come from?

 

Not saying you're wrong, but I have no recollection of anything to suggest that. Did or miss something or does anyone else remember this? Can anyone point where this was suggested in KotOR2?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When you talk to HK and and it gets to the part where you can say, "I can't allow you to stay on the ship" or something like that and you can continue from there and get HK story of Revan wanting the Exile to go back to face the Council.

 

He was either directly recruited by Malak or Revan, though the cave suggests Malak moreso.  It could be that the Exile was closer to Revan, but they wanted to save Revan for the final chamber of the cave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They'd've also had a hard time giving Revan any spoken dialogue.

 

I'd say the Exile was certainly "close" enough to Revan to have seen him in person and spoken with him and whatnot, but I'm reluctant to say that they were close in the sense of any kind of friendship. Their relationship, in the sense of their outward interactions, seemed to have been described and hinted at as being more as that of simply commander and general, rather than of actual friends. From thoughts I've heard around forums on the 'net and from what I recall of the hints and clues given in the game itself, Revan had had his eye on the Exile for some time throughout the Mandalorian Wars (even so far as having actually wanted the Exile to return to Coruscant to confront the Jedi Council), even with the Exile entirely unaware of it at the time. For that revelation to have had the most impact, the Exile's relationship with Revan would have to have been relatively impartial from the Exile's end, I think: Builded more on respect, admiration, empathy with Revan's (apparent) cause, and "all business" loyalty at the time than on real personal fondness.

 

Still, it seemed clear enough that it was Malak whom was personally responsible for recruiting the Exile in the first place, not Revan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. The Exile doesn't speak about Revan much and when he does he doesn't speak very highly of him. But I would assume that Revan and the Exile had to have known each other maybe as acquaintances, because for Revan to make the Exile a general means he has some faith in him before Malachor.

[anakins revenge]

READ THIS you know, when you all talk about the nihilus/ exile creation, you seem to forget about yin and yang. every reaction has an opposite reaction. theres the lightside of the force, darkside and gray side technically. anyways when the exile cut himself off the force most likely knew about it....sounds weird anyway when the exile cut himself off if he most likely created a temporary void, and im willing to bet nihilus, who also was resisting somehow, "fell" into said foid, mentally, therefore causing nihilus to be the creature he is now. it just seems a little obvious that nihilus was one of the exiles opposing reactions.

 

although I do support the fact that exile needs to turn to darkside, because if youve all read traiter- probly the non-pansiest starwars book, jacen solo falls to the ds but becuz he mentally decides not to kill, he doesnt. and the exile will most likely turn because its necessary for him to do so, as did revan.

[metadigital]

The Exile voluntarily cut himself off from the Force.  He could have restored his connection, but choose not to.  I think he needed some time to deal with what he had experienced in the Mandalorian Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He chose not to, right. But he didn't deal with the matter at all - he suppressed it. I see Nihilus as a sort of "force neurosis" that grew from that suppression.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possibly Nihilus was the result of the cumulative repressions of the Jedi group consciousness, rather than just the Exile. The attrocities involving the Exile at M5 amounted to just a conduit; the weakness or the fault line where the group unconsciousness broke through into the four time-space dimensions of the SW galaxy.

[Jediphile]

Possibly Nihilus was the result of the cumulative repressions of the Jedi group consciousness, rather than just the Exile. The attrocities involving the Exile at M5 amounted to just a conduit; the weakness or the fault line where the group unconsciousness broke through into the four time-space dimensions of the SW galaxy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What collective jedi group consciousness?

 

The Exile was the only one to reject the dark side - all the other jedi either died or fell to the dark side and joined Revan and Malak in the conquest of the galaxy.

 

Don't forget that the Exile was the only one to ever return to the face the jedi council.

[Darth_Schmarth]

Possibly Nihilus was the result of the cumulative repressions of the Jedi group consciousness, rather than just the Exile. The attrocities involving the Exile at M5 amounted to just a conduit; the weakness or the fault line where the group unconsciousness broke through into the four time-space dimensions of the SW galaxy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What collective jedi group consciousness?

 

The Exile was the only one to reject the dark side - all the other jedi either died or fell to the dark side and joined Revan and Malak in the conquest of the galaxy.

 

Don't forget that the Exile was the only one to ever return to the face the jedi council.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eh, the very same Jedi Council that rejected the dark side I'd presume.

[Calax]

ahem... if Nihilus is the expression of anything Freud would think that it is the Jedi group consiosness expressing the sexual repression.

[metadigital]

ahem... if Nihilus is the expression of anything Freud would think that it is the Jedi group consiosness expressing the sexual repression.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's more a Jungian concept, actually, so there is no need to go and Freud it up with sexual connotations (although, conceivably, their monastic lifestyle may indeed unwittingly invest more power into their collective repressions).

[metadigital]

Possibly Nihilus was the result of the cumulative repressions of the Jedi group consciousness, rather than just the Exile. The attrocities involving the Exile at M5 amounted to just a conduit; the weakness or the fault line where the group unconsciousness broke through into the four time-space dimensions of the SW galaxy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What collective jedi group consciousness?

The Exile was the only one to reject the dark side - all the other jedi either died or fell to the dark side and joined Revan and Malak in the conquest of the galaxy.

 

Don't forget that the Exile was the only one to ever return to the face the jedi council.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eh, the very same Jedi Council that rejected the dark side I'd presume.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Precisely. I was thinking it might be:

• the Jedi who left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, who repressed all the atrocities they had to commit and witness, plus
  
• the Jedi who stayed behind and repressed the fates of the millions who would die because of their inaction, their own Canterbury Cathedral Syndrome (as in Winston Churchill's enigma dilemma).
  

[atomic]

Possibly Nihilus was the result of the cumulative repressions of the Jedi group consciousness, rather than just the Exile. The attrocities involving the Exile at M5 amounted to just a conduit; the weakness or the fault line where the group unconsciousness broke through into the four time-space dimensions of the SW galaxy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What collective jedi group consciousness?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You mean, the Jedi are BORG!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!

[Darth_Schmarth]

No I think the only species that could ever qualify as Jedi would be the most avdanced of them all: The Vulcans.

[Jediphile]

Possibly Nihilus was the result of the cumulative repressions of the Jedi group consciousness, rather than just the Exile. The attrocities involving the Exile at M5 amounted to just a conduit; the weakness or the fault line where the group unconsciousness broke through into the four time-space dimensions of the SW galaxy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What collective jedi group consciousness?

The Exile was the only one to reject the dark side - all the other jedi either died or fell to the dark side and joined Revan and Malak in the conquest of the galaxy.

 

Don't forget that the Exile was the only one to ever return to the face the jedi council.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eh, the very same Jedi Council that rejected the dark side I'd presume.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Precisely. I was thinking it might be:

• the Jedi who left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, who repressed all the atrocities they had to commit and witness, plus
   
  
• the Jedi who stayed behind and repressed the fates of the millions who would die because of their inaction, their own Canterbury Cathedral Syndrome (as in Winston Churchill's enigma dilemma).
  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The jedi that follow Revan and Malak to fight in the Mandalorians didn't repress anything - they all either fell or gave in to the dark side as Revan and Malak did or they didn't survive at all (remember HK-47's comment about Revan 'cleaning house). The Exile was uniquely the only one of them to reject the dark side and return to the jedi coundil.

 

The jedi council wasn't there, since they refused to enter the Mandalorian War in the first place. Hence they never committed any of the atrocities that would have made them fall to the dark side, and so there was no lure for them to repress. Not entering the war was choice, not repression.

[Jediphile]

Possibly Nihilus was the result of the cumulative repressions of the Jedi group consciousness, rather than just the Exile. The attrocities involving the Exile at M5 amounted to just a conduit; the weakness or the fault line where the group unconsciousness broke through into the four time-space dimensions of the SW galaxy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What collective jedi group consciousness?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You mean, the Jedi are BORG!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"We are the Jedi - throw down your weapons and surrencer your ships. Resistance is futile!" :D

[Darth_Schmarth]

Okay, I see what you mean, but the fact is that the Council repressed the dark side too. They chose not to play along with Revan's war, and they managed to repress the lure of the dark side.

[Jediphile]

Okay, I see what you mean, but the fact is that the Council repressed the dark side too. They chose not to play along with Revan's war, and they managed to repress the lure of the dark side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't agree with that. It was a choice they made, because they saw the danger. That not the same was repressing it. And note how Kreia puts it:

 

"Many believed the Mandalorians defeated at Malachor V. But the Mandalorians taught the Jedi much through battle. And so it was that Malak, Revan, and the Jedi that followed them discovered their true natures in the Mandalorian crusade."

 

So it seems that the deciding point here is that the jedi who did fight in the Mandalorian Wars did horrible things or at least witnessed them. It's not the knowledge itself, but the experiences, particularly if they are personal. Or, to use Kreia's way of putting it, the warring jedi had been taught a lesson than the council had chosen not learn in the first place. That lesson made them all give in or fall to the dark side. The only one who resisted and rejected that lesson was the Exile.