Civ IV

[SteveThaiBinh]

It would make for a more peaceful world. :D

 

Maybe they'll include it as an option in Civ IV?

 

Nah, probably not.

[EnderAndrew]

Who wants peace?

 

I say visualize whirrled peas and give pizza chants!

[213374U]

I think that would make it so your cities didn't grow at all. Especially when trying to conquer the world, you would have to build up from day one just to take a continent.

Ever heard of the Spartans?

[metadigital]

Steve: Fantastic idea. I cracked up completely.

 

It did remind me of a point I was goig to make earlier, which is that my system (quite apart from the many other reasons why it wouldn't work) would result in my losing population to the war. You can't keep fighting indefinitely and expect to run things like your industries at full whack, and moreover you run out of first class recruits pretty soon. You only have to look at photos of the wehrmacht in 1945 to see how close to the bottom of the barrel they had got.

 

Random thought on society effects of war:

1) war ought to halt culture growth

2) post-war all the damn poets and painters come back harrowed and you get a culture explosion.

3) birth rates should increase during war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, but during wartime, science should explode! Especially if you conquer a scientific race, like the Germans (so you can steal all their scientists and make improvements on their V2, atom bomb and flying saucer designs to make ICBMs, plutonium fussion bombs ignited by fission and ... er ... SF tv shows).

[Walsingham]

The egyptian campaign went well. The degenerate sophisticates didn't know how to cope with a dose of pure unreasonable violence. I discovered how to 'peacefully' conquer cities. Bomb them/shell them to one population then occupy with eight specialists. For high culture enemies it helps to keep a leader spare to fly in and build your palace locally until the region is pacified.

 

I now have a problem, however, that I'd like your advice on. Although the main continent is now mine (all mine!), the filthy zulus are occupying a brooding grey landmassa bare turn's throw away from my western seaboard. Or rather, they have a two node island sitting there like Pearl, stuffed to the gunwales with all manner of planes, landing craft and so on. We are on a rough par in science, thanks I am sure to the disgusting Egyptians using all their tech to buy supplies and cash with in tehir death throes.

 

I''ve never EVER let a computer opponent get mobile infantry before, and am at a bit of a loss as to how to go about the campaign in the scientific era. Is an amphibious landing possible? Or should I wait until I get nukes?

 

EDIT: the main zulu landmass is another turn away by landing craft, on the other side.

[metadigital]

Advice: Zulus are bad. Kill them at the first, best opportunity, do not wait.

[Darth_Schmarth]

Personally I won't play Civ4 unless it has TIE Fighters in it.

[Walsingham]

Advice: Zulus are bad. Kill them at the first, best opportunity, do not wait.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Silence, you crazy voortrekker nutcase. Or I'll put the fething leeches on you, understand?

[metadigital]

Advice: Zulus are bad. Kill them at the first, best opportunity, do not wait.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Silence, you crazy voortrekker nutcase. Or I'll put the fething leeches on you, understand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'll be soooooooooooooooooooooooooor-ry ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They laughed at Cassandra in Delphi (that was her fate), too ...

[Darth_Schmarth]

Advice: Zulus are bad. Kill them at the first, best opportunity, do not wait.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Silence, you crazy voortrekker nutcase. Or I'll put the fething leeches on you, understand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think our friend Metadigital didn't mean it in quite such a literal way. It is only a game, after all.

[Darth_Schmarth]

Advice: Zulus are bad. Kill them at the first, best opportunity, do not wait.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Silence, you crazy voortrekker nutcase. Or I'll put the fething leeches on you, understand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'll be soooooooooooooooooooooooooor-ry ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Silly me trying to be diplomatic, heh... :">

[metadigital]

Advice: Zulus are bad. Kill them at the first, best opportunity, do not wait.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Silence, you crazy voortrekker nutcase. Or I'll put the fething leeches on you, understand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think our friend Metadigital didn't mean it in quite such a literal way. It is only a game, after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, did you think I was being racist?

 

I hope not! (And there is nothing in any of my posts to suggest such a thing.) I was talking about the Civ caricature of the RL race, which is both expansionist and militaristic. Bad combo: means any neighbours are toast. Kill or be killed, quickly. As for Zulus in RL, I know very little about them, apart from they own some real estate totally surrounded by South Africa.

[213374U]

Ah, but during wartime, science should explode! Especially if you conquer a scientific race, like the Germans (so you can steal all their scientists and make improvements on their V2, atom bomb and flying saucer designs to make ICBMs, plutonium fussion bombs ignited by fission and ... er ... SF tv shows).

Yeah. I always thought it was lame that you couldn't get scientific advancements from other civs through war. Guess they don't want to give war too much importance.

 

 

I''ve never EVER let a computer opponent get mobile infantry before, and am at a bit of a loss as to how to go about the campaign in the scientific era. Is an amphibious landing possible? Or should I wait until I get nukes?

 

EDIT: the main zulu landmass is another turn away by landing craft, on the other side.

Depends on what are your aims for the war. At any rate, making war without significant technological advantage/numerical superiority/advantage in industrial capacity is neither easy nor fun. If that's the case, I'd say let them attack, repel their offensive and let them chill. The AI isn't that great at planning naval operations once you deal with the first waves. At that point, I'd aim for other victory conditions.

 

And unless you are thinking of turning the world into a wasteland in which the only remaining civ is yours, don't even think of using nukes. Don't bother building them, either. Everyone will instantly hate you when you drop the first, and most will declare war when you drop the second.

Ironically enough, it's perfectly fine to exterminate whole cultures with standard weaponry, but use a nuke and lo! world coalition on your doorstep.

[Calax]

Just imagine if you could get tech from killing another unit,

 

"Ooga booga(look i have a pointed stick and i just killed a guy with a boom boom stick)"

"YAY now I can talk and have advanced three ages by conquering this single city HORRAH"

[alanschu]

I like the way Hearts of Iron 2 does things. Technology is traded as blueprints, rather than the full on tech. So the other side still needs to research it, but he gets large bonuses for his research so it goes pretty fast.

[EnderAndrew]

Personally I won't play Civ4 unless it has TIE Fighters in it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seconded.

[213374U]

Just imagine if you could get tech from killing another unit,

 

"Ooga booga(look i have a pointed stick and i just killed a guy with a boom boom stick)"

"YAY now I can talk and have advanced three ages by conquering this single city HORRAH"

Are you familiar with the term "straw man"?

 

Ah, I guess the irony is wasted on you.

[Walsingham]

Yeah. Sorry. Meta and I were just joshing, chief. Very good for morale. I know he's no racist. Nor am I (I hope). I had a choice of voortrekkers or Michael Caine. And the former won, since I figured few of you would have seen the film 'Zulu'.

 

Ironically, the strategies I have been using in Civ are pretty much what Shaka himself would have done. At least according to the history books.

 

Anyway, thanks for the advice, gents. Not sure about the nukes, though. remember that my main aim is to launch a crippling blow that will set back his production and research. So I was intending to use two conventional task forces of around ten inf. ten arty, eight tanks, and two cav. each. land them near a good target and just waste its errain and buildings. Throw in the nukes, and I'd expect to take his four main cities. Hold him at arms length for ten turns or so till he gets tired, then go back to peace. He won't catch up before the end of the game.

 

 

I expect I shall have a bash anyway. Got to learn how to tackle late era opponents some time. May as well be now.

[metadigital]

Yeah. Sorry. Meta and I were just joshing, chief. Very good for morale. I know he's no racist. Nor am I (I hope). I had a choice of voortrekkers or Michael Caine. And the former won, since I figured few of you would have seen the film 'Zulu'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who hasn't seen Mr Michelwhite in the classic Zulu?

Ironically, the strategies I have been using in Civ are pretty much what Shaka himself would have done. At least according to the history books.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, yes. The reason to attack the Zulus early is that, although you may not win, you'll certainly stand a better chance than if you leave them unmolested. The tactics are very sound, very effective.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, gents. Not sure about the nukes, though. remember that my main aim is to launch a crippling blow that will set back his production and research. So I was intending to use two conventional task forces of around ten inf. ten arty, eight tanks, and two cav. each. land them near a good target and just waste its errain and buildings. Throw in the nukes, and I'd expect to take his four main cities. Hold him at arms length for ten turns or so till he gets tired, then go back to peace. He won't catch up before the end of the game.

 

 

I expect I shall have a bash anyway. Got to learn how to tackle late era opponents some time. May as well be now. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you do the nuke thing, and it is fun, do it before anyone else has them, and preferably when the opposition are too weak (numerically and / or technolgically) to counter attack altogether: 'cause thy're after you. Also the planet does tend to get real messy, real quick.

 

[Walsingham]

Well, as soon as my spies reported they had nukes, and wee building the space program that was it. they had been spying on me, and there was no way i was going to let them waltz off with a victory. Every city on the continent was instructed to produce nukes, and a frenzy of radiation later he had been properly nobbled. He got one nuke back, but the indentured labour of many campaigns cleared that up in no time.

 

Incidentally, am I imagining things again, or does the AI get to 'cheat' in production and spying. I've never EVER managed to steal tech by spying, even including the huge costs of doing so against a rich opponent. Also, I've noiced that no matter how weedy a target city is, or how cut off from supply it is able to produce a fixed number of defenders for each turn, almost irrespective.

 

Furthermore, when the zulus started producing their spaceship they were using tech that I knew for a fact they did not have, like superconductors.

 

If this is the case then i find it extremely galling. What is the point in trying to be clever at all, if the AI can do this sort of rubbish?

[213374U]

Well, as soon as my spies reported they had nukes, and wee building the space program that was it. they had been spying on me, and there was no way i was going to let them waltz off with a victory. Every city on the continent was instructed to produce nukes, and a frenzy of radiation later he had been properly nobbled. He got one nuke back, but the indentured labour of many campaigns cleared that up in no time.

Well, nukes are not cost-effective IMO, since they're not even guaranteed to clear a city of enemy units. You're better off building bombers and carriers to take them on a tour of the enemy cities. I don't think I've ever been involved in a major nuclear conflict.

 

But whatever floats your boat. )

 

 

Incidentally, am I imagining things again, or does the AI get to 'cheat' in production and spying. I've never EVER managed to steal tech by spying, even including the huge costs of doing so against a rich opponent. Also, I've noiced that no matter how weedy a target city is, or how cut off from supply it is able to produce a fixed number of defenders for each turn, almost irrespective.

You mean you didn't know the AI cheats?

 

The level of cheating depends on the difficulty level. At the lower levels, the cheating favors the player, as AI production speeds are gimped. At the higher levels, the AI cheats really badly. Apparently, that's what "difficulty levels" means for some programmers. <_<

I don't know if the cheating affects the success rate and cost of espionage operations, though.

 

 

Furthermore, when the zulus started producing their spaceship they were using tech that I knew for a fact they did not have, like superconductors.

IIRC, not every part of the spaceship needs the same technologies. It is entirely possible that they were building parts that don't require superconductors. In fact, it's the smart thing to do if you're going for spaceship victory.

 

 

If this is the case then i find it extremely galling. What is the point in trying to be clever at all, if the AI can do this sort of rubbish?

Well, that's the point where the game began to get boring for me. The levels at which the AI doesn't cheat (or the cheating favors you) offer little to no challenge once you have grasped the basics of the game, and I really hate it when the AI cheats so blatantly. The higher difficulty levels are there for bragging rights only.

[Walsingham]

I know what you mean, and ordinarily I would use bombers. But I was deeply suspicious of the possibility that if I let him carry on he would randomly start getting nukes, where he really shouldn't have had the manpower to build them so quickly. Nukes were quick, and posed an added cleanup problem for his recovery.

 

I was suspicious from the start about the AI cheating, but assumed I was just being a wuss. I have to say that I consider it my biggest bugbear in ANY game. That by upping the difficulty I just face a stupidly rich opponent rather than a smarter one. Thsi generally means I simply ahve to do the same things as on the lower levels but with an ever decreasing margin of error. Not owning a 'swiss worker' moddy I find this just bloody irritating. I like a challenge, but having beaten such an opponent you simply feel you have achieved some sort of super-accountancy qualification.

 

 

I demand smarter AIs!

[metadigital]

I know what you mean, and ordinarily I would use bombers. But I was deeply suspicious of the possibility that if I let him carry on he would randomly start getting nukes, where he really shouldn't have had the manpower to build them so quickly. Nukes were quick, and posed an added cleanup problem for his recovery.

 

I was suspicious from the start about the AI cheating, but assumed I was just being a wuss. I have to say that I consider it my biggest bugbear in ANY game. That by upping the difficulty I just face a stupidly rich opponent rather than a smarter one. Thsi generally means I simply ahve to do the same things as on the lower levels but with an ever decreasing margin of error. Not owning a 'swiss worker' moddy I find this just bloody irritating. I like a challenge, but having beaten such an opponent you simply feel you have achieved some sort of super-accountancy qualification.

 

 

I demand smarter AIs!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Civ4 is apparently rebuilt from the ground up, so perhaps the developers have been far-sighted enough to add real difficulty levels.

[Guest Fishboot]

The level of cheating depends on the difficulty level. At the lower levels, the cheating favors the player, as AI production speeds are gimped. At the higher levels, the AI cheats really badly. Apparently, that's what "difficulty levels" means for some programmers.  <_<

The AI also gets lots of bonus units at the beginning of the game at some difficulty levels - it's entirely possible for any AI player to squash the human player at the beginning of a game on the Diety level, for example, since the computer starts off with several archers and spearmen (and I believe a bonus settler). But they typically don't.

 

I'm not that against AI advantages, since there's just no other way to manage things. Civilization is too complicated for a computer to really think ahead a la chess, even for something as simple as improving tiles in the right order, unless you want to have time to make a sandwich and coffee between each turn while your computer chugs on AI.

 

However, it's important to note that the AI advantages are all in raw power or a head start. They don't randomly get free techs or anything like that, although at a decent difficulty level the tech progression can become extraordinarily fast because of tech trading - if four AI civs can research four techs in four turns, they'll combine to bring one new tech into the game per turn, and they'll all have each one by trading. A human player trying to make some kind of isolationist tech haven has no chance to keep an edge whatsoever unless the game is functionally over anyway from having some ungodly huge/efficient civ.

 

Well, that's the point where the game began to get boring for me. The levels at which the AI doesn't cheat (or the cheating favors you) offer little to no challenge once you have grasped the basics of the game, and I really hate it when the AI cheats so blatantly. The higher difficulty levels are there for bragging rights only.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Basically true. It can be neat to once or twice be really disciplined about strategy to create a lean power base to compete with the AI's, but it's not something that can be fun for a dozen games.

[metadigital]

...

A human player trying to make some kind of isolationist tech haven has no chance to keep an edge whatsoever unless the game is functionally over anyway from having some ungodly huge/efficient civ.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or just destroying the other civs, in a wave of fervent genocide, before they can capitalise on their pan-communistic ideals ...