Would Mace Windu Have beaten Sidious?

[Darth Flatus]

Can someone post excerpts form the book to support their claim that it supports the pro mace theory? Despite the fact that it was based on an earlier draft of the screenplay and the (IMO inept) author had used artistic license - so basically it doesnt matter what the book says - i remember thinking while reading it that palps was in total control, but that was a while ago and i have absolutely no intention of re reading that book.

 

 

The way it was shot in the movie left it open to interpretation. So all theories are equally valid no matter how much arcane EU trivia is invoked.

[Atreides]

I'm sure GL read and approved the book before letting it out, so the book cannot be entirely discounted.

[Darth Flatus]

Not entirely discounted, but it does not take precedence over nor does it hold equal weight to the film.

[Nur Ab Sal]

haven't read the novel, the Visual Dictionary states that is Sidious's true face and always has been, but Windu's attack revealed it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually Visual Dictionary says that, but on other page it says his visage was deformed by Jedi.

 

Clearly Palpatine wasn't on the brink of death as he turned the tables the second he wanted to, and he had lied about everything else in said conversation.  Why do you insist there is no "proof" he lied about not being able to defend himself?

 

He wasn't stupid to give up and risk death. Besides movie and novelization never said or hinted anything about Palps faking duel. It's your imagination.

 

Despite his grand strategy over decades and trillions of lives in the galaxy, you find it impossible to believe that Palpatine was faking it, and claim there is no proof to suggest Palpatine was faking it?

 

Becouse there's no proof. All you have are your interpretations.

 

Again, most every major character recognizes Yoda as the most powerful Jedi.  Lucas has outright said it to boot.  Palpatine beats Yoda down, and yet you suggest Palpatine was old and weak.

 

Yoda withdrawed fro the duel but he wasn't beaten totally. Both opponents were exhausted. That was a stalemate. And Yoda was seen as wisest and oldest Jedi but no one said in the movie that Mace wasn't more powerful.

 

You completely ignore the beginning of that scene where Palpatine moves with insane speed and chops down other Jedi Masters in the blink of an eye.  Truly, Palpatine was weak.

 

Palpatine moves with the same speed all the time in the movie showdown. The distance between Mace and his henchmen was giant, so they died quickly. Mace was as fast and deadly as Palpatine (as we see on the movie and read in the novel)

 

I said that you ignored my points, and act as if your view is the only possible one.  You reaffirmed my stance.  I don't know how to explain it any more clear than that.  If you still insist that your particular subjective interpretation is the only one possible, then I'll call you ignorant.

 

No I just defend actual way of things. There's no proofs for "faked duel" theory. These are only your suspicions/ interpretations/ dreams. You are ignorant becouse you have no facts to back your theory. In the movie Palps got spanked although he fought ferociously. Movie didn't show Palps intentionally dropping his weapon. All you are babbling is just your theory. But the problem is that theory is a hoax without any clear (or even visible) evidence.

[kinneas]

here here.... good arguments from both sides really. but I'll have to side with windu on this one. it just seems waaay too overbearing to plot out and plan a fight with a jedi master. the fact that he was obviously ready to kill him and be content with that on several occasions during the fight showed that it was no joke. now that is needless to say that palpatine didnt realize what he had gotten himself into at the end and took the grand oppurtunity to paint a pretty picture for anakin's arrival. with the position he was in, it is very easy to make it seem like windu is the bad guy in that particular situation. so the fight was real, but when things weren't going his way by sheer will of 'force' palpatine became the manipulative bastard. well at least in my eyes. seems like a fair and happy medium. :D

[213374U]

Would Mace Windu have Sidious if Anakin Wasn't There?

And that's about it.

 

Let's not forget that Palps calls out for help to Ani before the Jedi show up. In the novel (or at least that fragment that was posted here) it clearly says that Palps sensed Ani approaching.

So he had two options. The first was to employ himself to the full extent of his abilities to try and beat Mace, and then face Ani surrounded by the corpses of the masters, exhausted and wielding his sith lightsaber. Ani wouldn't be pleased by that sight and would have probably attacked Palps. He would be exhausted after the fight with Mace and there were no guarantees that he could have beaten him in the first place. A losing scenario for Palps even if he somehow managed to beat both Ani and Mace.

 

The other option was to let Mace "win", let himself be disarmed and then appear as nothing but a helpless old man in the eyes of Ani. It's interesting that Ani arrives just after Palps has lost his lightsaber. He knew that Mace could not stand against both of them.

 

In the novel it's stated that Mace takes advantage of a fear he believes to stem from Palps to boost his fighting skills. But then Palps mocks him and reveals that the fear that Mace senses is not his, but probably Anakin's. So, at least to some degree, Palps was pretending.

 

In the end I think it's most likely that Palps played a very dangerous game with Mace and Ani, and won. In spite of that, I don't think Palps could have beaten Mace fair and square, but that's just a personal opinion and I don't think anyone can say for sure. However, Palps was a sith, and a smart one at that, so he cheated whenever he could. That's why he won in the end.

 

Oh, and about Yoda being raped by Palps, I always thought that he had to retreat because Palps was getting reinforcements, not because he was losing. I thought it was a stalemate during the whole fight.

[jedipodo]

What Nur said was also my impression of the movie. And you don't even have to read the novel to get this. Palps tries to flee from Yoda. Remember his facial expression (fear/pain) when he realises that Yoda is a much more powerful force user. And for the duel with Mace Sidious _really_ needed the help of Anakin as his saber skills and lightning storm didn't had the desired effect.

 

There's no proofs for "faked duel" theory.

It's the invention of Sidious devotees who haven't watched the film attentively enough.

 

 

ps.: Quote from GL to fan speculations: "Palpatine is NOT behind EVERYTHING!"

[random evil guy]

"buhu, i think this and that." nobody cares what you and others "think. if you've seen the movie, you'd know that mace beats palpatine. fair and square. if you don't like it, too bad. interpret it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that mace wins.

 

palpatine did not manhandle yoda. palpatine was afraid of yoda; why else would he try to run away? the fight was pretty close, until they both fell down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow, you really showed me there.

 

If Mace "won", then why did he die and Palpatine still alive? " In your own words, you can interpret all you want, but when all is said and done Mace is splattered on a pavement somewhere and Palps is busy cackling til his heart's content.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

showed you? how can i show you anything if you're blind? like i said, watch the movie. there is absolutely nothing that supports your "palpatine is faking it" theory. other than your own disillusions maybe....

 

mace won and would have killed palpatine if it hadn't been for anakin. that is what the whole story is about; anakin's fatal decision. he brings down the entire republic, not palpatine. this story is about anakin's fall, not some demi god sith palpatine...

[random evil guy]

Weak argument

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Palpy looked weak against Windu because he wanted to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

haha, yeah right and you know this because you're a close friend of either george lucas or palpy himself?

 

stop interpreting the damn movie! what you see is what you get; mace won the "duel", but anakin stopped him. not palpy, anakin! deal with it...

[random evil guy]

Palpatine beat down Yoda.

 

wrong again. it was basically a draw; the "force" standoff pretty much proved that. besides, why would palpatine try to run away if he was more powerful than yoda...?

[darthsidious666]

If it was a draw then it prooves Palpatine is quite strong in the force, enough to stand against Yoda, which I think we can all agree is the strongest Jedi in the force at the time. Then if he could hold up against Yoda in a contest of the force, but was earlier "beaten" by Mace just because he was kicked, does that not sound a little bit like a set up? Or does this proove that George Lucas can't direct for beans?

 

I agree that Palpatine is not some sort of god, and he isn't behind everything, but really, when you look at everything it just points to Mace Windu getting ahead just being a set up.

[random evil guy]

If it was a draw then it prooves Palpatine is quite strong in the force, enough to stand against Yoda, which I think we can all agree is the strongest Jedi in the force at the time.  Then if he could hold up against Yoda in a contest of the force, but was earlier "beaten" by Mace just because he was kicked, does that not sound a little bit like a set up? Or does this proove that George Lucas can't direct for beans?

 

no, it just shows that mace won the duel. yoda could stop the lightning with his hands, mace had to use the lightsaber. yoda was "stronger in the force" than mace, but mace won the duel with palps. maybe he was a better swordsman, maybe palpatine had an off day, maybe palpatine was blinded and that allowed mace to kick his lightsaber away. who knows? it really doesn't matter why; mace won...

[darthsidious666]

So you're implying that a skill with a lightsaber is greater then one's connection/strength with the force?

 

Yoda is stronger than Mace Windu, as hard as it may be to accept for some of you. If it's true that Mace Windu is stronger than Yoda, why is it Palpatine stayed to battle Mace Windu and his little Jedi group, but decided to attempt fleeing from Yoda? It seems he knew Mace Windu was never really a threat and decided to use him as a pawn to finnaly win Anakin's loyalty, and exterminate the Jedi. Palpatine also knew that against Yoda Palpatine might be risking his life, which is why he attempted to flee.

 

But as it has been said before, it doesn't really matter. Mace Windu died; Palpatine lived.

[jodo kast 5]

palpy's a cowardly old fart, why do you think he would try to run from Yoda if he knew he wasn't that tough to take on Yoda, besides in scholastic it says Yoda sensed Stormies comin and thats why he fled, if ol' Palps didn't have the ("Meat Droids" as i call them)Stormies at his beck and call he would've gotten his ass kicked by Yoda.

[Nur Ab Sal]

So you're implying that a skill with a lightsaber is greater then one's connection/strength with the force?

 

Yoda is stronger than Mace Windu, as hard as it may be to accept for some of you.  If it's true that Mace Windu is stronger than Yoda, why is it Palpatine stayed to battle Mace Windu and his little Jedi group, but decided to attempt fleeing from Yoda? It seems he knew Mace Windu was never really a threat and decided to use him as a pawn to finnaly win Anakin's loyalty, and exterminate the Jedi. Palpatine also knew that against Yoda Palpatine might be risking his life, which is why he attempted to flee.

 

But as it has been said before, it doesn't really matter. Mace Windu died; Palpatine lived.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Speculations, speculations, speculations.... that's all you have people.

[jodo kast 5]

So you're implying that a skill with a lightsaber is greater then one's connection/strength with the force?

 

Yoda is stronger than Mace Windu, as hard as it may be to accept for some of you.  If it's true that Mace Windu is stronger than Yoda, why is it Palpatine stayed to battle Mace Windu and his little Jedi group, but decided to attempt fleeing from Yoda? It seems he knew Mace Windu was never really a threat and decided to use him as a pawn to finnaly win Anakin's loyalty, and exterminate the Jedi. Palpatine also knew that against Yoda Palpatine might be risking his life, which is why he attempted to flee.

 

But as it has been said before, it doesn't really matter. Mace Windu died; Palpatine lived.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Speculations, speculations, speculations.... that's all you have people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly

[GhostofAnakin]

I admire your blindness to obvious facts we can see in ROTS movie and read in novelization. There was no faking from Palps side and discussion is over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really? Here's the excerpt from the novel, right at the point when Palps was firing lightning at Mace and had him in trouble.

 

Pg. 334 of the hardcover Revenge of the Sith novelization:

 

    "Help me!  I can't hold on any longer!"  The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh.  His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred.  "He is killing me, Anakin!  Please, Anaahhh..."

    Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone.  "Anakin, he's too strong for me...."

    "Ahhh..." Palpatine's roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of dispair.

    The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

 

If you will notice, Palpatine was on the brink of destroying Mace, but with Mace pleading with Anakin for help, Palpatine figured Anakin might side with Mace so he goes DIRECTLY from dominating Mace to the point Mace says "Anakin, he's too strong for me...", to becoming that feeble old man.

 

So Nurb, I'd say the novelization does make it quite obvious that Palpatine "gave up" in his fight because he didn't want to risk having Anakin side with Mace at that moment. That excerpt, atleast, definitely points to it.

[Echo_Drive]

No, Sidious would've beaten Windu even if Anakin had not shown up, IMO. Sidious is a master swordsmen and a true master of the using the Force.

 

Sidious knew that Anakin was coming so he wanted to look defenseless in the eyes of Anakin. Sidious was a master manipulator and did his job well, easily becoming the best villian in ROTS.

[RevanRedefined]

No, Sidious would've beaten Windu even if Anakin had not shown up, IMO.  Sidious is a master swordsmen and a true master of the using the Force.

 

Sidious knew that Anakin was coming so he wanted to look defenseless in the eyes of Anakin.  Sidious was a master manipulator and did his job well, easily becoming the best villian in ROTS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And Windu wasn't?

 

Sidious may have been a stronger force user, as shown in his duel with Yoda. And he did show various acrobatics when fighting with Windu, but Windu was just a stronger duelist.

 

As posted above. It's all speculations.

[Nur Ab Sal]

I admire your blindness to obvious facts we can see in ROTS movie and read in novelization. There was no faking from Palps side and discussion is over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really? Here's the excerpt from the novel, right at the point when Palps was firing lightning at Mace and had him in trouble.

 

Pg. 334 of the hardcover Revenge of the Sith novelization:

 

    "Help me!  I can't hold on any longer!"  The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh.  His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred.  "He is killing me, Anakin!  Please, Anaahhh..."

    Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone.  "Anakin, he's too strong for me...."

    "Ahhh..." Palpatine's roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of dispair.

    The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

 

If you will notice, Palpatine was on the brink of destroying Mace, but with Mace pleading with Anakin for help, Palpatine figured Anakin might side with Mace so he goes DIRECTLY from dominating Mace to the point Mace says "Anakin, he's too strong for me...", to becoming that feeble old man.

 

So Nurb, I'd say the novelization does make it quite obvious that Palpatine "gave up" in his fight because he didn't want to risk having Anakin side with Mace at that moment. That excerpt, atleast, definitely points to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually it is a stalemate. Neither of them is able to take advantage at this moment. When Ani cut off Mace's hand and he loses lightsaber then Palps uses lighning to finish him (Windu was a swordsman and hadn't big experience with force absorption like yoda so without lightsaber he was defenseless)

[Jedi Master D Murda]

I got an E-mail from the Star Wars official site and says that this debate is among the top ones and it also discusses that fight was redone from Anakin being with Palps when Mace and crew arrive but then was changed to Anakin rushing there.

 

Honestly I think Mace could have killed Sidious, and I am not being bias because I like Sidious more than Mace. It's weird that Sidious killed the other 3 Jedi so easy though but nevertheless was overpowered by Mace. I don't think Sidious is the Master Swordsmen a lot of people believe him to be, he's just a master manipulater(sp?). When Yoda tells Luke to not underestimate the powers of the Emperor he was talking about he manipulating powers, just look at how he almost turned Luke.

 

Lastly I voted yes.

[jodo kast 5]

look, most of you are givin' Palps way to much credit, he isn't the best Sith Lord out there

1. Windu was much younger than Palps and could easily do stuff without bending over and sayin "Oh my back!" like Palps could :D

2.He relyed way to much on the force and probably seldom practiced lightsaber combat when he was younger.

[jodo kast 5]

I got an E-mail from the Star Wars official site and says that this debate is among the top ones and it also discusses that fight was redone from Anakin being with Palps when Mace and crew arrive but then was changed to Anakin rushing there.

 

Honestly I think Mace could have killed Sidious, and I am not being bias because I like Sidious more than Mace. It's weird that Sidious killed the other 3 Jedi so easy though but nevertheless was overpowered by Mace. I don't think Sidious is the Master Swordsmen a lot of people believe him to be, he's just a master manipulater(sp?). When Yoda tells Luke to not underestimate the powers of the Emperor he was talking about he manipulating powers, just look at how he almost turned Luke.

 

Lastly I voted yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah it was one of the deleted scenes i saw a pic of it on the internet :cool:

[darthsidious666]

According to many of you, Mace Windu is the most powerful Jedi, but he sure wasn't the wisest.

 

Anakin: Dude, don't kill him, I'll so pwn u, if u do.

Windu: OMFG, I am teh r0xx0rz, I think I'll kill teh "old fart" instead of paying attention to the possible threat of the Jedi Knight next to me *raises saber* w00t

Anakin: Die u stupid bastard *cuts his arm off*

Windu: ahhhhhh!!!! ahhhh!!!! ahhhhh!!!! *dies*

 

In my opinion, him beating the "old fart" and possibly being able to kill him doesn't really proove he's stronger, it just prooves he doesn't respect his elders. "

[jodo kast 5]

According to many of you, Mace Windu is the most powerful Jedi, but he sure wasn't the wisest.

 

Anakin: Dude, don't kill him, I'll so pwn u, if u do.

Windu: OMFG, I am teh r0xx0rz, I think I'll kill teh "old fart" instead of paying attention to the possible threat of the Jedi Knight next to me *raises saber* w00t

Anakin: Die u stupid bastard *cuts his arm off*

Windu: ahhhhhh!!!! ahhhh!!!! ahhhhh!!!! *dies*

 

In my opinion, him beating the "old fart" and possibly being able to kill him doesn't really proove he's stronger, it just prooves he doesn't respect his elders. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hadri har har