Was Kreia Evil?

[LordRahl33]

Wow, feel the burn.

[Grant Dempsey]

Yep, read it and wrote it out and studied it. It's all very poorly written, and is very cclose to meaningless gibberish: nice sounding philosobabble that contradicts itself -- even in the same speech, in adjacent paragraphs.

 

So Kreia just wanted to train the Exile to defeat her in combat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, hey, I'm sorry you felt it was so poorly written, but what's the point of a discussion like this if we're not going to actually examine and consider the actual dialogue from the game itself?

 

And why did the Exile have to go and face Kreia in the first place? Why not just go off and save the Republic from the real "True" -- I really mean it this time -- Sith?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because I suppose Kreia wanted the Exile to surpass her and to prove it to her by killing her in a final confrontation between master and apprentice, as well as for that very showdown to serve as the Exile's final test in itself. Beyond even their confrontation, even simply forcing the Exile to "confront" Malachor V itself seemed to be an important final step in the "training" Kreia had for him. Her lessons and trials certainly weren't limited to helping him to "build up his raw power" or something. A lot of it was more philosophical than just passing on techniques. She sought to pass on her teachings and philosophies altogether, and to help (force) him to confront his past, and to push him through certain preconceptions he may have held about the nature of the Force and whatnot.

 

(Hint: Atris provides the motivation by saying that if the Exile does not go and face her, Kreia will kill herself and the force-bond will have the effect of killing the Exile on M5 -- even though the Exile is not there -- which will "kill the Force". Which is patently nonsensical. And if Kreia could kill the Exile via killing herself, what would this prove? And if she couldn't, what would she do then -- chance after the Exile beyond the Outer RIm?)

 

Meh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't actually recall Atris saying that Kreia's threat to the Exile was connected to her "plan to kill the Force" or that Kreia would have only killed herself if the Exile was on Malachor V. I was under the impression that Kreia's threat -- that she would kill herself and, consequently, the Exile (through their bond) -- was to be in the case that the Exile refused to go to Malachor V to meet her. Y'know, like, "Come to meet me on Malachor V. If you don't come to meet me there, I will kill the both of us and all will have been in vain. So, if you don't want to die, you'd better come."

 

I do remember Atris mentioning something separately about Kreia planning to destroy the Force and "needing" the Exile at Malachor V to do it, but that would appear to have been contradicted by the fact that that didn't seem to be Kreia's actual intention on Malachor V. One could argue that Kreia had told Atris a lie, knowing that Atris would pass it on to the Exile. If the Exile were informed that Kreia's intention was to destroy the Force, it would have given him more incentive to actually follow her to Malachor V to confront her.

[LordRahl33]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Because I suppose Kreia wanted the Exile to surpass her and to prove it to her by killing her in a final confrontation between master and apprentice, as well as for that very showdown to serve as the Exile's final test in itself. Beyond even their confrontation, even simply forcing the Exile to "confront" Malachor V itself seemed to be an important final step in the "training" Kreia had for him. Her lessons and trials certainly weren't limited to helping him to "build up his raw power" or something. A lot of it was more philosophical than just passing on techniques. She sought to pass on her teachings and philosophies altogether, and to help (force) him to confront his past, and to push him through certain preconceptions he may have held about the nature of the Force and whatnot.

Exile (through their bond) -- was to be in the case that the Exile refused to go to Malachor V to meet her. Y'know, like, "Come to meet me on Malachor V. If you don't come to meet me there, I will kill the both of us and all will have been in vain. So, if you don't want to die, you'd better come."

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kreia Also didn't have that whole Force Echo thing going on, and maybe she felt that to confront the true sith this would be necessary. I dunno, this stuff is gettin pretty deep.

[Calax]

Force=God

Never in starwars is there a real risk everything is planed from the beginning to coincide with what it wants. It Controls Everything.

 

Kreia=Lucifer asking the question of what happened to free will. and ultimatly rebelling against the force.

 

Only place i know of to get rid of the force is Myrkr

[Lord_Peter]

This is a very interesting threat...getting quite deep!

 

I agree with most of the points made by Grant and MetaDigital....but one thing that annoyed me the most about the whole Kreia thing with the ending was that....why was it necessary to fight her? It seems that the designers made it so the game ended in a final battle as (remember it was initially a console RPG) then there is a 'big boss fight'.

 

...It would have been much better if there was an option to avoid the battle if your Persuasion/Wisdom/Intelligence skill was high enough or chose the right options....e.g. convince Kreia that she is wrong - accepting you were manipulated by her but that it doesn't need to end in her or your death. What I am talking about is an ending like at the end of Planescape:Torment where you, as the immortal Nameless One could convince The Transcendent One (the manifestation of your mortality and fear) to become one with you and so the two halves would be joined together once more and you could face the judgement denied for so long. You could still battle it if you wanted (or commit suicide with the Blade of the Immortal) but it was not the most satisfying of endings...

 

Something similar could have happened with Kreia at the end of SWKOTOR 2....it seems too simplistic to just have a battle and the only outcome being that one of you would die. Why not, for example, convince Kreia to come with you to find Revan in the unknown regions as he/she searched for the True Sith Empire? (Maybe that is a plot-line considered by Obsidian for SWKOTOR 3 i.e. Kreia is still alive and you meet her)

 

What do you think?

[Dark Moth]

I do believe that Kreia may have been good before Malachor V.  But after her corruption and being betrayed by the Jedi, she turned evil.  I think at the time she was hiding behind a mask of neutrality, or she really did believe she was neutral despite her true nature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. Before Malachor V, she probably was good in the Jolee Bindo sense - always asking questions, challenging the assumptions of the Jedi masters, genuinely trying to open her students' minds to new ideas. But on Malachor she found the wrong answers, and stopped asking the right questions. After that, whether as a Sith Lord or exiled from both sides, she went on to make more and more evil choices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kreia was, at worst, amoral, not immoral and evil. Big difference, because Kreia is more a chaotic good; she seeks to save the universe from eternal slavery, shackled to the monstrously meglomaniacal Force: Kreia is single-minded, not evil.

 

You'll see, when you realise your destiny is controlled by something else, and you are just a actor forced to follow a script written by someone else for their own benefit. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Geez, how many times must I say that the force does not control you?!! The force can, at most, influence, but in the end, you make the choice. Jolee Bindo said it himself: destiny does not mean your future is written. Kreia was, I think, dillusional because she thought she had no free will. You are not an actor following a script! Look at Anakin: he had a destiny, but he rejected it until the very end; only his son could convince him to reject the darkside. If the force could control everything, why would it create someone who wants to kill it?!! Kreia wanted to blame everyone else but herself for her actions, and the force ended up being her final scapegoat.

 

Join the anti-anti-force coalition league!

[ncr]

Does destroying The Force = destruction of life? I don't recall this being answered in game.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Join the anti-anti-force coalition league!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm in! Where do I sign?

[Dark Moth]

Does destroying The Force = destruction of life?  I don't recall this being answered in game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, the game never made that clear. It was implied, but not confirmed. Just one of a thousand other things left unexplained.

 

I'm in!   Where do I sign?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right on Metadigital's forehead! :D (JK)

[metadigital]

...

[1]Well, hey, I'm sorry you felt it was so poorly written, but what's the point of a discussion like this if we're not going to actually examine and consider the actual dialogue from the game itself?

 

And why did the Exile have to go and face Kreia in the first place? Why not just go off and save the Republic from the real "True" -- I really mean it this time -- Sith?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[2]Because I suppose Kreia wanted the Exile to surpass her and to prove it to her by killing her in a final confrontation between master and apprentice, as well as for that very showdown to serve as the Exile's final test in itself. Beyond even their confrontation, even simply forcing the Exile to "confront" Malachor V itself seemed to be an important final step in the "training" Kreia had for him. Her lessons and trials certainly weren't limited to helping him to "build up his raw power" or something. A lot of it was more philosophical than just passing on techniques. She sought to pass on her teachings and philosophies altogether, and to help (force) him to confront his past, and to push him through certain preconceptions he may have held about the nature of the Force and whatnot.

...

[3]I don't actually recall Atris saying that Kreia's threat to the Exile was connected to her "plan to kill the Force" or that Kreia would have only killed herself if the Exile was on Malachor V. I was under the impression that Kreia's threat -- that she would kill herself and, consequently, the Exile (through their bond) -- was to be in the case that the Exile refused to go to Malachor V to meet her. Y'know, like, "Come to meet me on Malachor V. If you don't come to meet me there, I will kill the both of us and all will have been in vain. So, if you don't want to die, you'd better come."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. I did feel cheated. I spent a lot of time trying to extricate the philosophical underpinnings of the game (force of habit and occupational hazard), and I was sorely disapointed to find there were none; and with such a rich and pregnant plot I was doubly crestfallen.

2. You haven't explained why The Exile went to M5. Sure I would have expected it to be a choice, but "just to face down Kreia" isn't really selling it to me. Neither is "to complete the Exile's training".

3. Atris definitely does. If the Exile is LS, then why would death matter, so long as it meant the death of Kreia? No, it was an unavoidable compulsion, a clumsy narrative tool to impel the PC into the final few scenes of the plot.

 

I've got my notes somewhere here, still (which I'd need to read because I've long since un-installed the game -- though I'll probably play the restored content mod when the team release it).

Force=God

Never in starwars is there a real risk everything is planed from the beginning to coincide with what it wants. It Controls Everything.

 

Kreia=Lucifer asking the question of what happened to free will. and ultimatly rebelling against the force.

 

Only place i know of to get rid of the force is Myrkr

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's good! That's what I'm talking about, there is so much material to make a philosophical essay out of, and yet -- for whatever reason, be it LA overruling novel-and-therefore-significant events in EU history, general interference in the plot, lack of organisation and planning in the writing sage or just poor time management -- these crucial philosophical questions weren't even raised for discussion (by the audience). I don't expect these philosophical points to be solved in the game (although they conceivably might), but I expect some sort of cogent representation, which was sadly lacking.

Does destroying The Force = destruction of life?  I don't recall this being answered in game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is never adequately addressed in the dialogues. It is just lumped together as a Bad Thing that the protagonist must prevent.

Does destroying The Force = destruction of life?  I don't recall this being answered in game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the game never made that clear. It was implied, but not confirmed. Just one of a thousand other things left unexplained.

I'm in!   Where do I sign?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right on Metadigital's forehead! :D (JK)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Splitters!

 

Blind fools! But do not torment your consciences with doubt; we, the Anti-Force force (together with our brethren, the anti-anti-anti-Force force) will prevent the tyranny of predestination for all the universe.

 

[metadigital]

... the force does not control you?!!  The force can, at most, influence, but in the end, you make the choice.  Jolee Bindo said it himself: destiny does not mean your future is written.  Kreia was, I think, dillusional because she thought she had no free will.  You are not an actor following a script!  Look at Anakin: he had a destiny, but he rejected it until the very end; only his son could convince him to reject the darkside.  If the force could control everything, why would it create someone who wants to kill it?!!  ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What makes you think Jolee is better informed than Kreia?

How do you know that there is no predestination? Every time I watch Episode 3, Anakin agonises over his decision -- he doesn't want to be evil -- and yet, every time there he is, an accomplis in the betrayal and murder of Windu, and a cold-blooded killer of innocent small people. Every time. Even though he weighs up the pros and contras, even though he "rejected it until the very end" (sic), he still does it. Like he is predestined to do.

 

As to why an all-powerful, all-knowing essence creates something that might terminate its existence, well there are two answers:

a. The wound in the Force / echo mechanism created an unforeseeable weakness in the Force, which can now be exploited, or

b. The Force wants to terminate its existence in the universe (

[Grant Dempsey]

1. I did feel cheated. I spent a lot of time trying to extricate the philosophical underpinnings of the game (force of habit and occupational hazard), and I was sorely disapointed to find there were none; and with such a rich and pregnant plot I was doubly crestfallen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I wouldn't be immediately inclined to agree with that. Personally, I really enjoyed the ideas and themes that this game introduced, including the new perspective(s) on the nature of the Force itself. I wouldn't say that the game offered nothing or even that Kreia's dialogue was particularly self-contradictory or hollow of meaning.

 

2. You haven't explained why The Exile went to M5. Sure I would have expected it to be a choice, but "just to face down Kreia" isn't really selling it to me. Neither is "to complete the Exile's training".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What was the Exile supposed to do otherwise, spend the rest of his life in a bar on Coruscant? He had been "betrayed" by someone he apparently trusted and came under the impression that Kreia was, in actuality, a Sith Lord.

 

Aligned with the Light Side of the Force, it wouldn't be too ridiculous to assume that the Exile would have wanted to follow Kreia to Malachor V to see if she could be "saved" or "redeemed" or even simply to end the current threat of the Sith. Kreia wasn't the only potential threat either, after all; there was also still Darth Sion and his followers to deal with. The Exile had just been informed that Malachor V was not only the base from which Darth Sion and his Sith were striking, but an entity of extremely powerful darkness in itself. Activating the Mass-Shadow Generator might have been a part of the plan in going there in the first place, for the sake of ridding the galaxy of Malachor V itself once and for all.

 

Aligned with the Dark Side of the Force, it wouldn't be too ridiculous to assume that the Exile would have wanted to follow Kreia to Malachor V simply to kill her as vengeance for "betraying" him, as well as -- potentially -- to claim the Trayus Academy and the dark power of Malachor V for himself.

 

3. Atris definitely does. If the Exile is LS, then why would death matter, so long as it meant the death of Kreia? No, it was an unavoidable compulsion, a clumsy narrative tool to impel the PC into the final few scenes of the plot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't say it would've made more sense for the Exile to let himself die...

[metadigital]

1. I did feel cheated. I spent a lot of time trying to extricate the philosophical underpinnings of the game (force of habit and occupational hazard), and I was sorely disapointed to find there were none; and with such a rich and pregnant plot I was doubly crestfallen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[1]Well, I wouldn't be immediately inclined to agree with that. Personally, I really enjoyed the ideas and themes that this game introduced, including the new perspective(s) on the nature of the Force itself. I wouldn't say that the game offered nothing or even that Kreia's dialogue was particularly self-contradictory or hollow of meaning.

2. You haven't explained why The Exile went to M5. Sure I would have expected it to be a choice, but "just to face down Kreia" isn't really selling it to me. Neither is "to complete the Exile's training".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What was the Exile supposed to do otherwise, spend the rest of his life in a bar on Coruscant? He had been "betrayed" by someone he apparently trusted and came under the impression that Kreia was, in actuality, a Sith Lord.

 

Aligned with the Light Side of the Force, it wouldn't be too ridiculous to [2]assume that the Exile would have wanted to follow Kreia to Malachor V to see if she could be "saved" or "redeemed" or even simply to end the current threat of the Sith. Kreia wasn't the only potential threat either, after all; there was also still Darth Sion and his followers to deal with. The Exile had just been informed that Malachor V was not only the base from which Darth Sion and his Sith were striking, but an entity of extremely powerful darkness in itself. Activating the Mass-Shadow Generator might have been a part of the plan in going there in the first place, for the sake of ridding the galaxy of Malachor V itself once and for all.

 

Aligned with the Dark Side of the Force, it wouldn't be too ridiculous to assume that the Exile would have wanted to follow Kreia to Malachor V simply to kill her as vengeance for "betraying" him, as well as -- potentially -- to claim the Trayus Academy and the dark power of Malachor V for himself.

 

3. Atris definitely does. If the Exile is LS, then why would death matter, so long as it meant the death of Kreia? No, it was an unavoidable compulsion, a clumsy narrative tool to impel the PC into the final few scenes of the plot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[3]I wouldn't say it would've made more sense for the Exile to let himself die...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Then we must agree to disagree.

 

Let's be clear, though; I applaud Kreia as a character: the use of subtle shades and "hidden" depths in NPC characters was a brilliant concept: it's a real pity it was abandoned in the denouement (there is obvious remains in the detritus cut from the game that have Atris as the LS end-boss, which is a much better plan) in favour of the plastic pantomime villain that burst out of the carefully crafted Kreia of the first two-thirds of the narrative.

 

The whole game suffers from poor execution. If it was a pupil at school, it's report card would be "has all the potential but can do better" and K2 "is it's own worst enemy".

 

2. Yes, those are valid reasons, but that is not the stated impetus, it is: go to M5 or die by Kreia's suicide cascading through your bond. Which is crap anyway, because we kill Kreia with impugnity. There is no clear, satisfactory and satisfying narrative arc in the last act of the game: the story is afraid to be told (because it is so poorly written, presumably).

 

3. Exactly.

[Dark Moth]

What makes you think Jolee is better informed than Kreia?

How do you know that there is no predestination? Every time I watch Episode 3, Anakin agonises over his decision -- he doesn't want to be evil -- and yet, every time there he is, an accomplis in the betrayal and murder of Windu, and a cold-blooded killer of innocent small people. Every time. Even though he weighs up the pros and contras, even though he "rejected it until the very end" (sic), he still does it. Like he is predestined to do.

 

As to why an all-powerful, all-knowing essence creates something that might terminate its existence, well there are two answers:

a. The wound in the Force / echo mechanism created an unforeseeable weakness in the Force, which can now be exploited, or

b. The Force wants to terminate its existence in the universe (

[metadigital]

[1]And what makes you think Kreia is better informed than Jolee?  Both were wise, in my opinion, but Kreia was just dilusional in the end.  Dilusional and evil.  The force is not some bad, manipulative thing that controls you.  It wasn't that way in the movies.  The godd**n developers of KOTOR II twisted the Star Wars universe!  They said it themselves that they wanted to do something different, and they did.  Why do you think you have so many people saying KOTOR II isn't Star Wars?  Sheesh. <_<  It was more like the Matrix set in Star Wars.

 

[2]Sorry, but think you're digging really deep.  That part that you mentioned about Anakin only proves my point even more: if he was destined to destroy the Sith, he wouldn't be a killer of Jedi, yet he was.    If the force wanted him to destroy the Sith, it wouldn't be *making* him kill off those Jedi.   

 

[3]As for your explanation of the force killing itself, remember that Kreia was born before the exile became a wound in the force, and hated it before the events of KOTOR.  And the force wanting to kill itself is just silly. 

 

To rephrase the popular slogan:  The force doesn't kill people, people kill people. 

 

[4]My guess is you voted "good" on the polls. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. There is no evidentiary support for your supposition that the Force is not controlling the universe and creating a pre-destiny for all the (relevant/significant/all) members. It is just another opinion; another interpretation of the historical events. Part of the problem is that the films are pretty shallow when it comes to philosophical exegesis, too.

 

2. He wasn't destined to be a killer Sith. He was "the chosen one" (Aside: ) who was predestined to "balance the force". Well, after he finishes all his work, the only Force sensitives left alive are Luke and Leia: that pretty much razes the LS/DS equation to zero. (Endless arguments can also be made as to the exact alignment of Luke and Leia: certainly Luke used some feelings of hate to defeat Vader, and he "felt" the "good" (LS) in his father.)

 

3. Why is the Force wanting to kill itself silly? Are you immortal? Do you know what it's like to live forever? The motivations, aspirations of an essence or even a godling? Perhaps it is just the time for the Force to renew itself in another cycle, and that requires a termination to this cycle (whatever a cycle is, and whatever "terminating" and "renewal" mean to the Force and the universe, of course ... )

 

4. Actually, this is about the tenth thread like this, and I haven't voted. :D

[LordRahl33]

wow you two are really going at it. this is great!

[Grant Dempsey]

1. Then we must agree to disagree.

 

Let's be clear, though; I applaud Kreia as a character: the use of subtle shades and "hidden" depths in NPC characters was a brilliant concept: it's a real pity it was abandoned in the denouement (there is obvious remains in the detritus cut from the game that have Atris as the LS end-boss, which is a much better plan) in favour of the plastic pantomime villain that burst out of the carefully crafted Kreia of the first two-thirds of the narrative.

 

The whole game suffers from poor execution. If it was a pupil at school, it's report card would be "has all the potential but can do better" and K2 "is it's own worst enemy".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I suppose where we disagree would be in the idea that Kreia lost her interest value as a character in the game's finale.

 

Kreia's role in the storyline certainly switched from that of "party member" to "antagonist to be confronted" rather quickly, but I don't think that detracted from her character. Her desire to force the Exile into a "the apprentice versus the master" confrontation on Malachor V didn't come across as forced or poorly constructed in itself to me. I thought it seemed fitting and, in a way, complimented some of the other seemingly-tragic elements about her character.

 

Besides, it would appear that, while we may disagree over the exact "how" and "why" about it (such as her actual intentions at Malachor V), we do agree that Kreia wasn't generally "evil" in any black-and-white sense and was, in some ways, actually compassionate. At the same time, however, her methods -- even in "teaching" another -- were harsh. Forcing the Exile into a situation where his only options were to "break" or to fight back and kill her seemed fitting in that regard as well. She didn't really strike me as the type who would have ended the Exile's "training" with a friendly pat on the back and a, "Go get 'em, tiger." Well...alright, in a sense, she did anyway, but not without forcing him to leave her with a fatal wound first.

 

2. Yes, those are valid reasons, but that is not the stated impetus, it is: go to M5 or die by Kreia's suicide cascading through your bond. Which is crap anyway, because we kill Kreia with impugnity. There is no clear, satisfactory and satisfying narrative arc in the last act of the game: the story is afraid to be told (because it is so poorly written, presumably).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if we were to consider the Exile's own dialogue (options), reasons of the sort that I mentioned did seem to be an explicit part of his reasons for going to Malachor V. After all, two of his dialogue options when first approaching Kreia at the Trayus Core were, "I have come to kill you, Kreia," (arguably a dialogue option for Dark Side characters) and, "Kreia, it's not too late. You can still be saved," or something along those lines (pretty clearly a dialogue option for Light Side characters). The Exile's own reasons for traveling to Malachor V to confront Kreia did seem to go beyond simply "not wanting to die through Kreia's suicide" (even though I'm sure that only gave him more incentive to go anyway).

 

Activating the Mass-Shadow Generator "or" claiming Malachor V for himself somehow did seem to factor into his reasons for traveling to Malachor V as well, since he knew even before going that Malachor V itself was corrupt with extremely powerful dark energies. Again, when first approaching her at the Trayus Core, two of the Exile's dialogue options were, "Malachor will survive...but you will not," (presumably for Dark Side characters) and, "This Academy won't last, Kreia. I can activate the Mass-Shadow Generator again," or something like that (presumably for Light Side characters). The fact that Bao-Dur's Remote was all ready to go when it popped out of the Ebon Hawk and that G0-T0 knew in advance to follow it certainly made it seem like activating -- or disabling -- the Mass-Shadow Generator was a part of the plan in the first place.

 

Furthermore, the revelation that Malachor V was the "base" from which Darth Sion and his followers were launching their strikes against the galaxy was certainly brought up before the game itself actually moved there (to Malachor V). "Ending the threat of the Sith" -- which extended beyond Kreia alone, even at that point in time -- certainly seemed to be a part of what drew the Exile and company to Malachor V as well.

 

I didn't mean to imply before that Kreia's threat of "double suicide" was really the biggest draw for the Exile. It seemed like it was simply there to give the Exile further incentive, in case he really began to consider refusing to go at all.

 

Either way, I don't mean for this to come across as though I'm really trying to argue against you here. I'm just looking at this as a friendly discussion. So, I apologize if I'm coming across as edgy or anything.

[Calax]

Best guess is that Kreia/Exile was somehow able to sever the force bond. It's the only explanation. If Kreia was truly evil why would she try to make exile stronger even after betraying him? Course the fact that Sion disobeyed her order didn't help her much. Perhaps if You had seen some conciquence from Sion then she would have been truly evil because she would have been blinded by her obsession with exile. The mass shadow generator is a cute piece of technology but i'm wondering why they didn't have a remote control, at least a clapper (Clap on clap off goes the mass shadow gen)Also I think Kreias alignment depends on the Exiles' If Exile were dark wouldn't she be serving the lightside or at least neutral when she killed him?

[Ixion]

Since she was DARTH Traya... I would assume she's evil.

[Dark Moth]

1. There is no evidentiary support for your supposition that the Force is not controlling the universe and creating a pre-destiny for all the (relevant/significant/all) members. It is just another opinion; another interpretation of the historical events. Part of the problem is that the films are pretty shallow when it comes to philosophical exegesis, too.

 

2. He wasn't destined to be a killer Sith. He was "the chosen one" (Aside: ) who was predestined to "balance the force". Well, after he finishes all his work, the only Force sensitives left alive are Luke and Leia: that pretty much razes the LS/DS equation to zero. (Endless arguments can also be made as to the exact alignment of Luke and Leia: certainly Luke used some feelings of hate to defeat Vader, and he "felt" the "good" (LS) in his father.)

 

3. Why is the Force wanting to kill itself silly? Are you immortal? Do you know what it's like to live forever? The motivations, aspirations of an essence or even a godling? Perhaps it is just the time for the Force to renew itself in another cycle, and that requires a termination to this cycle (whatever a cycle is, and whatever "terminating" and "renewal" mean to the Force and the universe, of course ... )

 

4. Actually, this is about the tenth thread like this, and I haven't voted. :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*Sigh* So tired.

 

1. And you must realize that your views are also just an interpretation. There is no concrete statement saying "we are all puppets of the force". Besides, if that were true, there would be no point to our existance. Even if the force influences, it does though for our benefit, not harm. Kreia viewed it as some evil manipulator, but I don't think that's true. And don't forget: the films may be shallow, but they are the first and they are official! So what they say goes.

 

2. As I said, he was not destined to become a killer Sith, but he was. That just proves my point. The force did not mean for him to be a killer of Jedi, yet he was. As for LS/DS, it is a description of you as a person, not your allegiance to Jedi/Sith. Not all Sith are truly evil, and not all Jedi are truly good. I think Luke was lightside, but Vader had managed to goad him into using the darkside to fight him.

 

3. And you're not immortal either. You are ascribing human motives to the force, which is far from human. The force has a responsiblity for the galaxy, and I don't think it would kill itself off just cause it was tired of living. I don't think the force even gets tired of living. As for "force cycles", I think now you're making stuff up. Unless I'm wrong, the force never went through cycles by killing itself off or renewing itself.

 

So I stick by my opinion: Kreia was evil. Perhaps I would believe she was concerned about all life being pawns of the force if she didn't treat everyone else around her as her pawns, the exile included. But hey, as I already said, she is very ambiguous, and I can see why people would vote for her as 'neutral' (although 'good' I have a harder time believing)

[maldarth]

hi! im knew to this forum. I just started here a few days back seeking an alternative scenario to freeing vrook. i played kotor 1 when it came out till i burnt myself out on it, then kotor 2 im going on 4th 5th char female LS. I must say this is a very intresting debate you guys have here, you almost sound like the jedi counsel your selvs.

kreia is nutral. chaotic nutral. she does what ever SHE feels is right. regardless if its right or wrong. a rouge force user if you will. kreia did have an obsession with the exil, but her ententions was clear she seen the same attributs from the exil as did ravan: being a leader. even though she forced the exil to kill her at the end, a common practice of the sith in rality she was sacrificing her self for the comon welth of the galaxy. in her own sick chaotic personality her goal was not for the sith to rule, not for the jedi to rule, but for a force user to make his own mind how to use the powers he naturly possesed. both side acted as if THEY owned the force but really the force own them. a chaotic char has an unorthidox way to handling any situation. they tend to lean towards there own preceptions.

Nutral is a hard thing, if you help people out your considerd jedi, if you kill people your sith. what would a nuetral have? but to seek balance. nutrals can pick their fights, choose to help jedi or sith, or the exchange or czerka or republic. so long as the order sect religion race, 'gender' sees the same veiw, agrees with, or has the same goal as the rouge force user. if not the rouge force user would simple find another group.

 

nuetrals fall under no guidlines exept keeping themselves as balanced as possible.

 

as kreia would say is such roles in the galexy important? ofcourse they are.

[Blank]

Whatever the case is... she definitely needs a face-lift.. or a suicide booth.

[CoM_Solaufein]

Whatever the case is... she definitely needs a face-lift.. or a suicide booth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A bag over her head.

[Darth_Schmarth]

And a dirty mag on her back.

[Akhan225]

Kreia was Darth Traya, so that doesnt leave much room to argue. She did however leave the Sith in search of the last of the jedi in order to put an end to the force and all things connected to it. She claims to use the force as a tool to better understand how to destroy it. This goes along with the Sith during the time of Revan who used the force as a tool while the jedi were more guided by it. This makes me say she is blatantly evil. Doesnt matter that she condemns you for killing indiscriminately. She is soley interested in manipulating events and people through betrayl, i.e. Darth Traya

Edited October 18, 2005 by Akhan225