Standard Characters Vs Choice Characters

[Los Wackos]

I think standard is better, I was dissapointed that I couldn't get some characters because I was evil.

 

Then again, the whole idea of forcing peaple to travel with some NPCs(Like GOTO, Canderous, Mandalore, or Visas) annoys me. I think they should give the player some more options on NPCs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree it was completely ridiculous to have Mandalore running about helping a LS Master Jedi! Why?

So Canderous could find Revan?

What a lame reason!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, he travelled with the Exile in order to stop the sith from conquering the galaxy, since he wouldn't want the Sith to get in the way of his crusade.

[metadigital]

I think standard is better, I was dissapointed that I couldn't get some characters because I was evil.

 

Then again, the whole idea of forcing peaple to travel with some NPCs(Like GOTO, Canderous, Mandalore, or Visas) annoys me. I think they should give the player some more options on NPCs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree it was completely ridiculous to have Mandalore running about helping a LS Master Jedi! Why?

So Canderous could find Revan?

What a lame reason!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, he travelled with the Exile in order to stop the sith from conquering the galaxy, since he wouldn't want the Sith to get in the way of his crusade.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Meh. I don't see why a LS Exile would want him along. It's not like the Exile needs directions on the Ravager (because he doesn't get any from Mandalore), or Mandalore is any significant factor in the combat. It's just a clumsy device to include Mandalore for the sake of it -- which, ultimately, is the worst reason.

[Jambo]

it's a tough call. choice characters give the game more replayablilty, but like Outlaw Jedi 1 said, "It seems tha the standard characters are given more depth and purpose to them anyway, so that gets my vote." So, if there was some way that they could combine the two, I would be all for that. But even though I voted for choice characters, I feel that I should have voted for the standard ones. I guess I just like the idea that those are the characters that I'm stuck with. They're with me no matter what my alignment is...not that they have a choice, though...

[metadigital]

But it doesn't make any sense that people will stick with you regardless of whether you are Mother Theresa or Mira Hendley.

 

Okay, we can argue the ontological aspect of true freedom of will, and whether, in this instance of the game universe, these companions just happen to be the same alignment that I choose to become ... but that leaves the question of if I change alignment mid-game, and also there should be some occassions when some of the companions do not follow me, otherwise it loses all suspension of disbelief.

[Lord Tingeling]

If you're speaking about Mandalore and being retarded, the truly idiotic thing in KotORII was that it totally eschewed any and all development of Canderous' personality in KotOR.

 

He's back to the person he was at the beginning of the original game, not the person he ended up in the original.

[metadigital]

Maybe that's because we're playing as a new character (Exile) and not picking up where we left off (Revan).

 

 

I agree, though, the character development (for all the characters) was omitted from the final draft, even if it was somewhere in the design plans ...

[Lord Tingeling]

Maybe that's because we're playing as a new character (Exile) and not picking up where we left off (Revan).

 

How so? In basically all aspects that count, the game does pick up where Revan left off, albeit from a different perspective. This is especially true when you look at NPC's such as Carth and Bastila, and how they act in KotORII.

 

And the character development among the NPC's in KotORII was horrible, really.

[metadigital]

Maybe that's because we're playing as a new character (Exile) and not picking up where we left off (Revan).

 

How so? In basically all aspects that count, the game does pick up where Revan left off, albeit from a different perspective. This is especially true when you look at NPC's such as Carth and Bastila, and how they act in KotORII.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, from Mandalore's point of view; he doesn't know the Exile from Adam. It kinda follows, therefore, that he would act the same towards the Exile as he initially did towards Revan. (It follows, but it is still very unsatisfying and not at all unavoidable. But such is the price for development at haste. )

And the character development among the NPC's in KotORII was horrible, really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, I agreed with that bit.

[Lord Tingeling]

Well, from Mandalore's point of view; he doesn't know the Exile from Adam. It kinda follows, trherefore, that he would act the same towards the Exile ashe initially did towards Revan.

 

Why? At the end of the original, he's convinced that the life he's led maybe wasn't that much to brag about, after all. I don't see how 'trust' or new social relations factor into this issue. If I realize that gambling is bad for my economy, then it makes little sense that I should continue to gamble, but only do so at the start of a new relationship, now does it? The aforementioned realization isn't centered around others, now is it?

 

Of course, there are ways one could explain his newfound fervor, but the problem is that the game doesn't do that. As a character, he's still stuck in the proverbial stoneage, which is rather annoying. He's about as interesting in KotorII as T3 was in the original. Which is to say 'as interesting as watching paint dry', really.

[metadigital]

Well I'm certainly not going to argue that the character development was satisfactory on any level in K2; there was a lot of potential (especially with Kreia and the whole "shades of grey" spectrum of LS-DS and even Chaos-Law), there just wasn't any follow-through.

 

Quite frankly, Mandalore's character was so shallow in K2 that it would have lost nothing if he weren't in the game; that's a pretty damning indictment of the writing.

[Lord Tingeling]

Well I'm certainly not going to argue that the character development was satisfactory on any level in K2; there was a lot of potential (especially with Kreia and the whole "shades of grey" spectrum of LS-DS and even Chaos-Law), there just wasn't any follow-through.

 

Exactly. The whole non-cartoon approach to good and evil was very promising, and in some respects, it delivered, too. But it still felt rather incomplete. When you fall too much to the dark side, for example, Kreia asks you something which escapes me at the moment- but anyway, all you can reply with is various forms of arrogant drivel along the lines of "I am in control of the force!!! hahahaha!1!!!", etc. There's no room for other motivations to go dark side than pure arrogance and powerlust in Starwarsland!

 

This is rather meh, since my character wouldn't really be cruel just for the heck of it (scheming and manipulative, sure. But baby-eating? No.), nor would he have any illusions regarding having "control of the force". If for nothing else, Revan did demonstrate (or at leas the game tells me so, along with that he was a genius and THE BEST EVER and so on and so forth) there might be many reasons behind someone falling, for example...

 

...such as the fact that Handmaiden clad all in black looks totally hawt.

 

Quite frankly, Mandalore's character was so shallow in K2 that it would have lost nothing if he weren't in the game; that's a pretty damning indictment of the writing.

 

I agree. Too bad, that. It can also be said that character development across the board in KotORII was generally rather poor, too. The game had rather interesting characters, but sadly most of them just stood there. I guess it is a matter of preference, but I always found the NPC's in KotORII to be more... static. I'd have loved to have more worthwhile talks to NPC's such as Atton, Visas, Mandalore, but the game really disappointed me in that regard.

[metadigital]

The background that was "unlocked" via the influence system resulted in one telling conversation for each NPC -- apart from Kreia, who was the only NPC to have any depth, but even that was as insubstantial as Fairy Floss. I dispair at the line-by-line analyses I performed on the dialogues of the Jedi Council and Kreia and Atris, in my vain attempts to piece together a point. My conclusion was a sad one; the plot was just a mindless arrow pointing to the next scene, not a meaty statement of profundity.

 

For example, the conversation with Atton upon leaving Peragus, the resolution of the dilemma in the Korriban tomb and the conversations with every Force Sensitive in the game were all ideal opportunities to assess the personality of the audience and feed it into the narrative. Instead, all of these occassions were just shallow dialogues to prop up the battles and cut scenes on either side.

 

Very disapointing.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Mandalore is NOT Canderous any more than Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker.

[metadigital]

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The background that was "unlocked" via the influence system resulted in one telling conversation for each NPC -- apart from Kreia, who was the only NPC to have any depth, but even that was as insubstantial as Fairy Floss. I dispair at the line-by-line analyses I performed on the dialogues of the Jedi Council and Kreia and Atris, in my vain attempts to piece together a point. My conclusion was a sad one; the plot was just a mindless arrow pointing to the next scene, not a meaty statement of profundity.

 

For example, the conversation with Atton upon leaving Peragus, the resolution of the dilemma in the Korriban tomb and the conversations with every Force Sensitive in the game were all ideal opportunities to assess the personality of the audience and feed it into the narrative. Instead, all of these occassions were just shallow dialogues to prop up the battles and cut scenes on either side.

 

Very disapointing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's still lightyears ahead of what most other RPGs are offering. Which is why I have a hard time taking your disapointment seriously. If you set your expectations too high, then disapointment is inevitable.

 

The story you are expecting isnt possible without either totally pregenerated character, or a much larger workload. That Obsidian pulled of what the did in KOTOR II in a year boarders on the miraculous.

[Lord Tingeling]

Mandalore is NOT Canderous any more than Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What makes you say that?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What makes you say that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Think about it

[metadigital]

It's still lightyears ahead of what most other RPGs are offering. Which is why I have a hard time taking your disapointment seriously. If you set your expectations too high, then disapointment is inevitable.

 

The story you are expecting isnt possible without either totally pregenerated character, or a much larger workload. That Obsidian pulled of what the did in KOTOR II in a year boarders on the miraculous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not true. Sure OE did some hard work, but that doesn't excuse a half-baked game.

 

The character development in K1 was better than K2, apart from Kreia, who at least was a deep character. Even Vrook was sketched better in the original, and that's saying something!

 

I don't agree that K2 was "light-years ahead of what most other RPGs are offering"; I've played some with NPCs in NwN that are more fleshed out and interesting. Even the amateur community contains better work.

 

And why do we have to settle for what a developer can rush out in under twelve months, anyway? Some of the Japanese RPGs make these NPCs look like the cardboard cut-outs they are. Heck, some of the characters in the FPS genre are better drawn than Mandalore! (Barney in Half-Life AND Half-Life 2, for example.)

 

I'm disapointed because the first game was brilliant, and the second had potential to be even better, and ended up worse. I don't see that I am being unreasonable.

[metadigital]

What makes you say that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think about it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But it is a nonsense. Anakin Skywalker fell to the Dark Side. Canderous was already a Dark Side sob.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The character development in K1 was better than K2, apart from Kreia, who at least was a deep character. Even Vrook was sketched better in the original, and that's saying something!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There wasnt any. Going on sidequest dosnt equal character development. Each character went on, what was supposed to be this pivitol side quest, that ended up having no affect what so ever on their personality or values.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

But it is a nonsense. Anakin Skywalker fell to the Dark Side. Canderous was already a Dark Side sob.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, your just not looking at it from the right direction.

[Lord Tingeling]

To my knowledge, "dark side" for a non-jedi isn't really the same thing. And why would Canderous "fall", then?

 

Canderous' character actually grew in KotOR, and at the end of the road he wasn't really the person he was at the beginning. KotORII ignored this- something which I am loath to consider a "feature". It's a flaw, pure and simple.

[metadigital]

The character development in K1 was better than K2, apart from Kreia, who at least was a deep character. Even Vrook was sketched better in the original, and that's saying something!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There wasnt any. Going on sidequest dosnt equal character development. Each character went on, what was supposed to be this pivitol side quest, that ended up having no affect what so ever on their personality or values.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... As opposed to K2, where one went about merrily way solving quests etc; if you had the correct NPCs, at the right place and time, and acted in accordance with their wishes, the PC received influence with them, and they eventually told some sad and pointless story that had no bearing on anything.

 

Yep, much better.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Canderous' character actually grew in KotOR, and at the end of the road he wasn't really the person he was at the beginning. KotORII ignored this- something which I am loath to consider a "feature". It's a flaw, pure and simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes but he's not Canderous anymore. Think of it like a super hero who never takes off the mask. Canderous is losing his self identity to Mandalore.

 

Which is exactly what happened to Darth Vader, remember the words of Obi Wan

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

... As opposed to K2, where one went about merrily way solving quests etc; if you had the correct NPCs, at the right place and time, and acted in accordance with their wishes, the PC received influence with them, and they eventually told some sad and pointless story that had no bearing on anything.

 

Yep, much better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes because it's organic, your actions are important not simply a case of come back and be spoonfed some more story when you gain a level. That people cant handle the idea of failiure (losing influence)/not being able to see everything because it isnt bloody obvious isnt a flaw in the system as much as a flaw in them.

 

On the contrary the backstories filled in many of the questions. KOTOR II also has inter-related NPCs where something you ask one NPC will open up a new dialogue path with another. It also makes sense that you would become friendly with those characters who most closely share your views (or have to break their will, or pretend you share them, perhaps challenging your own in the process, and certainly sullying yourself).