Remodel the combat system!

[w666tvr]

All of this is a bit of moot point, don't you think? KotOR is wedded to the concept of D20 and abandoning would be a risk that LucasArts would never, ever, even contemplate. Too many purists, too many howls of outrage, too much of a change for the third part of a major trilogy and probably doesn't fit with a party based RPG at all.

 

However, I did find myself quite impressed with the combat scheme in VTM: Bloodlines, that puts together a stat based character build with first person/third person combat in a fairly convincing way (you can't just pick up a sniper rifle and expect to be able to use it).

 

A flawed convincing way, to be sure, but it definitely is an idea that has legs...

 

As an aside, I also liked the idea of XP only for completing quests (nothing for kills, hacking, lock-picking, etc) and occasional bonuses for completing missions without killing. Once the incentive is removed for finding and killing everything that the game accepts as an enemy, you can concentrate on the quests and story rather than the combat.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

All of this is a bit of moot point, don't you think? KotOR is wedded to the concept of D20 and abandoning would be a risk that LucasArts would never, ever, even contemplate. Too many purists, too many howls of outrage, too much of a change for the third part of a major trilogy and probably doesn't fit with a party based RPG at all.

 

However, I did find myself quite impressed with the combat scheme in VTM: Bloodlines, that puts together a stat based character build with first person/third person combat in a fairly convincing way (you can't just pick up a sniper rifle and expect to be able to use it).

 

A flawed convincing way, to be sure, but it definitely is an idea that has legs...

 

As an aside, I also liked the idea of XP only for completing quests (nothing for kills, hacking, lock-picking, etc) and occasional bonuses for completing missions without killing. Once the incentive is removed for finding and killing everything that the game accepts as an enemy, you can concentrate on the quests and story rather than the combat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really, at least not in the way I suggested. You keep most of the d20 system and you also (and this is the bit LA will probably like) have an amalgimation with a similiar sort of gameplay to that in EPIII. Which is selling like hotcakes. The idea that they can bring on board players of EP III while keeping those KOTOR players is probably quite enticing.

 

If your not familiar with EPIII you spend experience (earned on each mission) buying either skills from about 5 different catagories, or from 1-3 levels of force powers (although a trimmed down list compared to KOTOR).

[Darkfire]

Even in K2's closed quarters there're so many options to make a better AI:

- use a melee shield when under melee attack

- use an energy shield when under blaster fire

- buff

- let the ranged fighters fall back when under melee attack

- help each other

- all against one

 

And think of all the options you have when using the force. Buff first and attack later? Strike first to get a helpless enemy and leaving yourself unprotected if this fails? But no, all Kreia does is fight first and buff when everyone is dead, depleting all her force points. Even the end-bosses don't know how to use their powers.

Those are good close quarter tactics, but there isn't the equipment for them to work well. Shields have about enough hit point to last two or three hits (if that, especially those useless melee shields), buffs don't provide that much help, work for only one person in the group and they are rare(ish and expensive to make).

 

Helping each other out is difficult for AI to do, as it has to be aware of others around it (i.e. it more or less have to be specifically written AI). The most challenging battles in Baldurs Gate were fighting against other parties...everyone had a role.

 

As for the force....well when did a battle last more than a few seconds. By the time most enemy Jedi cast anything you've already torn them to pieces.

 

Making a generic AI is extremely hard to do since there are so many options. However having an AI that is strong enough to but up a good fight can be done if the game designers do it right. Part of the reason I like Baldurs Gate is that the set piece battles were well designed. At first appearence a battle can appear very difficult or nearly impossible...until you use tactics...then the battle becomes a lot easier.

[Darth Blivion]

I'm not well versed as far as the d20 system is concerned but in its defence i'll say it makes combat related attributes significant. But lets consider your party AI. For one they ran headlong into  clearly visible mines. This aspect of the games system is'nt fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As was said before, what you're using as an example is an example of poor AI, not the turn-based system itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

A fully real time system would easily rectify the AI problem.

[Heckur]

As for the force....well when did a battle last more than a few seconds. By the time most enemy Jedi cast anything you've already torn them to pieces.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think reverse: you encounter many battles with opponents that are physically stronger than you are, have better equipment, are higher level, et cetera. Yet you torn them to pieces. Now why would that happen? Why don't they torn you to pieces. Only two words: bad AI.

 

Why is it so hard to imagine that they can defend themselves too? That a battle can take longer than two rounds, because they know how to fight too? That you no longer throw yourself into the enemy to rip them apart because you know that if you do so, you will instantly die? And suddenly you need a consular to protect yourself, you need someone to break through the enemy's defenses. Suddenly you need tactics. And that makes battles so much more interesting.

 

Currently, most fights in K2 are just d20 based hack & slash parties and the only time you're in trouble is when you're heavily out-gunned or when your party members do something stupid.

[Darth Rexlar]

I have thought how I would like to see a modified d20 real time type hydride. I always thought the d20 system lack any sense of urgency in it. Fight could always be paused, and the consequence minimal. Not to say that is not say you can't pause with a pause button, though in the d20 the urgency just seemed to be missing for me. When I first bought KOTOR I was kind of hoping the game was like the final level of Jedi Academy, with the player teaming up with two other Jedi, only I was hoping for some squad type options for the two Jedi's since KOTOR was pushing a 3 characters system. If done right I don't see why you would have to loose any of the story elements or couldn't create well done stat based character. I think stats could be used in a myriad of new and creative ways As with any game, but even more so in this concept, the most important aspect is having a smart AI.

[Darkfire]

Think reverse: you encounter many battles with opponents that are physically stronger than you are, have better equipment, are higher level, et cetera. Yet you torn them to pieces. Now why would that happen? Why don't they torn you to pieces. Only two words: bad AI.

Well that isn't really bad AI, just bad planning. As the player you are able to see what is coming and prepare for it, hencing buffing before a battle. Often the enemy doesn't know you are coming from a plot point of view and more especially from an AI point of view, so it doesn't prepare. One solution would be to have an 'alarm' like system where enemies on the level know you are there so turn on shields, apply buffs etc when an alarm near them goes off. This would give them a chance to react before you get to them and would also provide a nice tactical option of 'ghosting' enemies to avoid an alarm going off.

 

That said though, the main reason they don't tear me apart is that I do it first. The damage levels in KOTOR II are massive compared to the number of hit points anyones got. The AI may have 'better' stats, but they don't have better equipment most of the time (lightsabers being a good example....they just have the saber, you have the crystals and upgrades), which gives you a damage advantage. Combined with the regeneration...poor AI hasn't a chance, and frankly even a good AI would have a bad day against that.

 

Why is it so hard to imagine that they can defend themselves too? That a battle can take longer than two rounds, because they know how to fight too? That you no longer throw yourself into the enemy to rip them apart because you know that if you do so, you will instantly die? And suddenly you need a consular to protect yourself, you need someone to break through the enemy's defenses. Suddenly you need tactics. And that makes battles so much more interesting.

 

Currently, most fights in K2 are just d20 based hack & slash parties and the only time you're in trouble is when you're heavily out-gunned or when your party members do something stupid.

It isn't hard to imagine I've played such games! :D. But the cause isn't just the bad AI, its the whole design of the battles. Damage is the key thing really. If I can do enough damage to kill something in one hit, then the only tactic that would make sense would be the 'great unholy massarce' approach. The enemy must do about the same damage to you as you can to it. That way you end up with a kind of 50/50 win lose result if you just leave it to the AI. Its then up to the player to do something 'tactical' to shift the odds in their favour, be it use of special items, knowing specific weaknesses of the enemy (not the AI itself), use of terrain etc.

[Heckur]

I have thought how I would like to see a modified d20 real time type hydride. I always thought the d20 system lack any sense of urgency in it. Fight could always be paused, and the consequence minimal.  Not to say that is not say you can't pause with a pause button, though in the d20 the urgency just seemed to be missing for me.  When I first bought KOTOR I was kind of hoping the game was like the final level of Jedi Academy, with the player teaming up with two other Jedi,  only I was hoping for some squad type options for the two Jedi's since KOTOR was pushing a 3 characters system. If done right I don't see why you would have to loose any of the story elements or couldn't create well done stat based character.  I think stats could be used in a myriad of new and creative ways As with any game, but even more so in this concept, the most important aspect is having a smart AI.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The original concept of real time fights in a turn based system was good: you control a (large) party, you choose a tactic, you issue commands for each member and then watch the fight in real time. Because you needed to control more than one character, you had the ability to pause the fight, give more commands, and resume it.

 

However, in both Kotors, this concept is severely flawed: the command queues for the party members don't work. So it no longer makes sense to give commands to party members, because they will be ignored as soon as you switch to another member. The only way to influence the actions of a party member is choosing the 'AI' script for this member or actively taking control of him/her.

 

Because of this command queue bug, it no longer makes sense to pause the game, if you are an experienced gamer. But if you're new in this game, you're easily overwhelmed by the rich choice of fighting styles, powers and targets. Pausing the game gives you time to think. This game isn't some real time FPS, with only eight weapons and two attack modes. It offers much more and if you want to use all that, instead of Master Speed / Master Flurry all the time, then you need time to think.

[Heckur]

Think reverse: you encounter many battles with opponents that are physically stronger than you are, have better equipment, are higher level, et cetera. Yet you torn them to pieces. Now why would that happen? Why don't they torn you to pieces. Only two words: bad AI.

Well that isn't really bad AI, just bad planning. As the player you are able to see what is coming and prepare for it, hencing buffing before a battle. Often the enemy doesn't know you are coming from a plot point of view and more especially from an AI point of view, so it doesn't prepare. One solution would be to have an 'alarm' like system where enemies on the level know you are there so turn on shields, apply buffs etc when an alarm near them goes off. This would give them a chance to react before you get to them and would also provide a nice tactical option of 'ghosting' enemies to avoid an alarm going off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, although I think this alarm system should be part of the AI. On Telos you can walk past mercenary parties as if you were invisible. You can blow up mines in their faces and they don't react. Just plain stupid.

 

That said though, the main reason they don't tear me apart is that I do it first. The damage levels in KOTOR II are massive compared to the number of hit points anyones got. The AI may have 'better' stats, but they don't have better equipment most of the time (lightsabers being a good example....they just have the saber, you have the crystals and upgrades), which gives you a damage advantage. Combined with the regeneration...poor AI hasn't a chance, and frankly even a good AI would have a bad day against that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, the game is poorly balanced.

 

Why is it so hard to imagine that they can defend themselves too? That a battle can take longer than two rounds, because they know how to fight too? That you no longer throw yourself into the enemy to rip them apart because you know that if you do so, you will instantly die? And suddenly you need a consular to protect yourself, you need someone to break through the enemy's defenses. Suddenly you need tactics. And that makes battles so much more interesting.

 

Currently, most fights in K2 are just d20 based hack & slash parties and the only time you're in trouble is when you're heavily out-gunned or when your party members do something stupid.

It isn't hard to imagine I've played such games! :D. But the cause isn't just the bad AI, its the whole design of the battles. Damage is the key thing really. If I can do enough damage to kill something in one hit, then the only tactic that would make sense would be the 'great unholy massarce' approach. The enemy must do about the same damage to you as you can to it. That way you end up with a kind of 50/50 win lose result if you just leave it to the AI. Its then up to the player to do something 'tactical' to shift the odds in their favour, be it use of special items, knowing specific weaknesses of the enemy (not the AI itself), use of terrain etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. In this game the emphasis is on doing as much damage as possible, while in all the star wars stories the emphasis is on not getting hurt. All those mighty knights and other heroes all go down after taking one severe injury.

 

If the damage is scaled down, the battles become more interresting. Fortunately the game allows you to do this. The more interesting character builds are the high defense / low damage ones, in my opinion.