KotOR2:TSL combat mechanics questions

[grayswandir]

Hello everyone,

 

I was looking through the Message Log (combat section) when playing TSL, and I was puzzled by a few things that came up.

 

I'm playing TSL for the PC (patched). My character is a level 13 Jedi Guardian. with 20 STR (I have light side mastery, and the second column next to your stats says +5, on the Strength row - I don't quite remember what the +5 is supposed to indicate, I think it's +5 from your base strength). Anyway, I was looking at the combat section of the message log , and I noticed some curious calculations for attack/defense. I was using master flurry on a character whom I shall not name for fear of spoilers (I broke her lightsaber), and here's what the attack calculation was, for my single vibrosword wielding character, using master flurry:

Mainhand 35 = roll 14 + base 13 (my level I'd guess) + strength mod 5 + effect bonus 3

Now, why is my strength mod only 5? Shouldn't it be higher, given that my strength is at 20? I believe the effect bonus of 3 comes from the attack modifier of +2 on my upgraded vibrosword (advanced contour grip), and the targeting visor (attack bonus +1). I didn't have any force effects operating on me besides energy shield which shouldn't affect anything.

 

Same goes for defense, I noticed something strange:

My defense as shown on the character stats screen is 27. In the combat message log, this is broken down as:

base 10 + armor 7 + dex mod 1 + class 6 + feats and affects mod 3

Now my dex is at 12 (second column +1, due to my jal shey perception gloves probably). I'm wearing an upgraded krath heavy armor with defense 9 and max dex bonus +2 (with some upgrades, including 20% physical damage resistance and uh 1 con and 1 strength I think). Given that, shouldn't my armor defense component be 9? And how exactly is the dex mod calculated? If it's the delta between dex 10 and current dex shouldn't it be 2? And how are the base and class specific bonuses calculated? I realize this is probably an RTFM question, but well, the game manual is kinda light.

 

Any info or a pointer to where I can find this stuff would be appreciated. I was a great fan of KotOR 1 and I thought I understood the d20 system from that game, but I can't make heads or tails of this ..what has changed as far as combat mechanics? Thanks!

 

 

 

(mild spoiler: I'm on the moon Dxun (I chose to head to Onderon after Telos))

[grayswandir]

(Sorry, I got a MySQL DB error the first time I tried to post - if a moderator/admin can delete the first one, I'd appreciate it).

[starkiller]

The +5 STR modifier is correct.

 

As you create your attributes, you should see that if you go from 10 to 12 in anything, a +1 should appear. That is the modifier.

 

10 is a base. If you have lower, you have a negative modifer.

As you go up from 10, your modifier increases by 1 for each 2 you go up.

12 = +1 modifier

14 = +2

...

20 = +5 modifier

 

Things that increase attributes will inevitably increase this modifier, like the Jal Shey gloves you mentioned.

Example:

You created a character with 14 Strength (so you have a +2 modifier). Then you found a Strengthening Underlay Mark III and used it.

That underlay adds +2 to your Strength. You now have 16 Stength, and now a +3 modifier.

[grayswandir]

Ah, I just realized that after posting - modifier = (score - 10)/2 Thanks for the explanation!

 

Any thoughts on why the armor component of the defense bonus is 7? The curious thing is that when I remove the Defense 9 armor, my defense goes from 27 to 19 - neither 9 nor 7 lower, but 8. Hmm.

[metadigital]

Ah, I just realized that after posting - modifier = (score - 10)/2 Thanks for the explanation!

 

Any thoughts on why the armor component of the defense bonus is 7? The curious thing is that when I remove the Defense 9 armor, my defense goes from 27 to 19 - neither 9 nor 7 lower, but 8. Hmm.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could depend on Dexterity bonus and/or the armour maximum dexterity bonus rating.

e.g. Heavy Armour might have:

Defence Bonus +6

max. Dex. Bonus of +2

So for your character with Dex of 16 (+3 bonus) whilst wearing this armour will be +8 better off in defence (+6 armour +2 dex), because you only derive +2 of your dexterity bonus in the armour (rationale probably being that it is too restrictive to grant full dexterity bonus).

 

[grayswandir]

Actually, I did account for that - as I mentioned earlier, my character's dex is at 12, for a modifier of +1. The armor I'm wearing permits a max dex bonus of +2, so it shouldn't cap off the dex bonus (which amounts to one Def point, it appears).

I'm wearing an upgraded krath heavy armor with defense 9 and max dex bonus +2 (with some upgrades, including 20% physical damage resistance and uh 1 con and 1 strength I think). Given that, shouldn't my armor defense component be 9? In the calculation from the message log (shown in the first post of this thread), it's listed as being 7. Strange.

[metadigital]

Actually, I did account for that - as I mentioned earlier, my character's dex is at 12, for a modifier of +1. The armor I'm wearing permits a max dex bonus of +2, so it shouldn't cap off the dex bonus (which amounts to one Def point, it appears).

I'm wearing an upgraded krath heavy armor with defense 9 and max dex bonus +2 (with some upgrades, including 20% physical damage resistance and uh 1 con and 1 strength I think). Given that, shouldn't my armor defense component be 9?  In the calculation from the message log (shown in the first post of this thread), it's listed as being 7. Strange.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must confess to not checking this out completely -- and not understanding it completely, either. (I'm sure Darth Frog will be along soon enough with a complete spreadsheet of all the different permutations!)

 

All I can think of, without checking -- which I am not prepared to do at the moment -- is that it is something to do with the "base". What level are you -- 13 (based on your comments about BAB)?

[Darth Frog]

TSL's defense calculations are 'unknowable' - the stuff simply doesn't work out. One part of the problem is that certain defense boni do not stack, but the game does not tell you which (in NWN at least the rules were clear and items were clearly labelled like 'AC Armour mod', 'DB Doge mod' and so on).

 

Another part is the problem mentioned by grayswandir - the math does not add up. From my own experience:

 

Felenar Armour (11/4) with Flexible Underlay V and Bonded Plates Mk IV has a defense rating of 14/7. Equipping this on a lvl 29 Guardian/Marauder along with a couple of DEX boosters yielded the following defense breakdown in the log:

 

41 = base 10 + armour 9 + dex mod 7 + class 12 + feats & fx 3

 

Here again the armour mod is several points below the armour rating of the suit (14 with upgrades, 11 without). My Exile was simply standing there getting shot at, so no defense penalties from attack feats. The (double-bladed) lightsabre contained an emitter with defense bonus +2 but I don't know where the third feats&fx mod came from. The equip screen showed defense 45 at the same time, go figure.

 

I haven't looked at this closely as my characters never care about defense; the armour suit was one I made for Atton.

 

P.S.: breakdown with a plain double-bladed sabre or two plain normal sabres is

 

39 = base 10 + armour 9 + dex mod 7 + class 12 + feats & fx 1

 

I have no idea what the feats&fx 1 could be.

[Darth Frog]

I have no idea what the feats&fx 1 could be.

 

Well, now I have. Sort of. I investigated a little and it seems that the armour rating for most suits gets split into two components in the breakdown - part goes into 'armour' and part goes into 'feats and effects', and if the game is in a good mood then the things can even add up to the original armour rating that is listed in the description.

 

Defense boni from items like (Enhanced) Shielding Visor, Czerka Defensive Gauntlets, Gamorrean Wargloves, Inertial Inhibitor, Expert Fencing Emitter and so on are also added under 'feats and effects'.

 

Also, there seems to be a hard limit of 10 on the 'feats and effects' mod. Taken together with the 'armour rating split' I mentioned above this explains quite a lot of the oddities that we have observed regarding defense calculations. It does not, however, explain why Obsidian would invent such a brain-dead rule and then not tell the player about it.

 

And there's still no explanation why sometimes the sum of armour mod and feats&fx mod is way less than the nominal armour rating of the suit, let alone figuring in all other active feats and effects. And there is no explanation why the defense rating in the combat feedback is sometimes clearly less than the rating in the equip screen.

[grayswandir]

That's quite disappointing. I don't remember KotOR1's defense system being quite so buggy/obfuscated, and as far as I can see, except for new upgrade items, the armor system hasn't really changed. I've also read that the defense bonus from the "speed" line of force powers doesn't stack (or rather, work at all), which is a shame. Not that it matters, since I'm on my third planet (including peragus), and even playing at the difficult setting (which is a misnomer), I go through opponents like a hot knife through swiss cheese. Perhaps the defense bonuses (while bonus is probably a derivative of the latin bonum, for "good", "boni" isn't something I've encountered in common usage) for the monsters aren't being calculated right either!

[Darth Frog]

I've also read that the defense bonus from the "speed" line of force powers doesn't stack (or rather, work at all), which is a shame.

 

The defense bonus from Force Armour and Speed does work and it does stack, but since it goes into the 'feats and effects' mod like pretty much everything else (including the defense bonus from the Ossus Keeper Robes, as I just found) it tends to get limited.

 

Lvl 32 Guardian/Weapon Master with miner's outfit in a scuffle with a Sith Lord:

 

26 = base 10 + armour 1 + dex 1 + class 14

 

Plus Force Armour and Master Speed, which add 6 and 4 respectively:

 

36 = base 10 + armour 1 + dex 1 + class 14 + feats&fx 10

 

Just as expected. The breakdown also matches the value shown in the equipment screen. Adding Nomi's Armband gives an additional +1 against DS opponents which does not get shown in the equipment screen (naturally). Although it gets added to the feats&fx component in the breakdown it is neutral with regard to the limit of 10. That is, with Nomi's Armband equipped the feats&fx mod can be 11.

 

The defense penalties for certain things, like being attacked while flat-footed, are obviously accounted for in the 'feats and effects' mod - most likely after applying the limit. This can explain some of the discrepancies we've seen.

[atomic]

I've also read that the defense bonus from the "speed" line of force powers doesn't stack (or rather, work at all), which is a shame.

 

The defense bonus from Force Armour and Speed does work and it does stack, but since it goes into the 'feats and effects' mod like pretty much everything else (including the defense bonus from the Ossus Keeper Robes, as I just found) it tends to get limited.

 

Lvl 32 Guardian/Weapon Master with miner's outfit in a scuffle with a Sith Lord:

 

26 = base 10 + armour 1 + dex 1 + class 14

 

Plus Force Armour and Master Speed, which add 6 and 4 respectively:

 

36 = base 10 + armour 1 + dex 1 + class 14 + feats&fx 10

 

Just as expected. The breakdown also matches the value shown in the equipment screen. Adding Nomi's Armband gives an additional +1 against DS opponents which does not get shown in the equipment screen (naturally). Although it gets added to the feats&fx component in the breakdown it is neutral with regard to the limit of 10. That is, with Nomi's Armband equipped the feats&fx mod can be 11.

 

The defense penalties for certain things, like being attacked while flat-footed, are obviously accounted for in the 'feats and effects' mod - most likely after applying the limit. This can explain some of the discrepancies we've seen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

By the way !!! What does the "class 14" means?????

[BattleCookiee]

As I posted in the other Replying to KotOR2:TSL combat mechanics questions:

 

Mainhand 35 = roll 14  + base 13 (my level I'd guess) + strength mod 5 + effect bonus 3

Breakdown: 14 is 14/20 by a d20, obvious so far...

Base 13 is indeed the lvl of you're Jedi

Strenght mod +5 is correct, as you also said it was +5 in the log.

Normal str (+0) is 10, and every 2 Str adds a +1, which is used in this case in the change to hit...

Effect like you said.

Same goes for defense, I noticed something strange:

My defense as shown on the character stats screen is 27. In the combat message log, this is broken down as:

base 10 + armor 7 + dex mod 1 + class 6 + feats and affects mod 3

Breakdown:

Base 10 is always given...

Armor: If you're armor gives 9, this would be, but due to you're story I guess it's Defense 7 Max. Dex. 2??? If so this is because the Defense = the defense as in the logs. The Max. Dex of 2 is that this armor blocks off any bonusses from dex after 14 (+2). So if you got Dex 18 (+4) and put that armor on the +2 Defense given from +2 get's taken away due to you're armor...

Dex mod correct. Dex 12 = +1 (See Strenght)

Class: Due to the Jedi Defense Feat you gain additional Defense, is this number...

Feats and Effects: This is most likely from the Feat Master Dueling...

P.S. The sytstem is (except for a few tiny changes) not changed from KOTOR1

P.S.2 the 3 Defense from Dueling I said is probably what DarthFrog said...

[Darth Frog]

What does the "class 14" means?????

 

Defense bonus from Jedi Sense, Scoundrel's Luck and (Greater) Prestige Sense; these feats are automatic for certain classes, hence the 'class' label.

 

In this particular case it is 4x2 (from Jedi Sense, for 19 Guardian levels) plus 3x2 (from Greater Prestige Sense, for 13 Weapon Master levels).

[grayswandir]

Battlewookie - I'm afraid your post was a little unclear. Did you figure out an explanation for why the armor component of the defense calculation was 7 instead of 9? Also take a look at Darth Frog's example with Felenar's armor (11/4, 14/7 with upgrades I believe - showed an armor component of 9 in the message log). Thanks

[Darth Frog]

Did a little more experimentation. It looks like the bonus from Duelling is not factored into 'feats and effects', it is listed separately as 'feat'. But the defense bonus/penalty from lightsabre forms does get added to the 'feats and effects', and it seems to get applied after enforcing the ceiling of 10.

 

I loaded a save with the girl in miner's outfit facing a Sith Lord who wielded a lightsabre. With the Juyo form and a melee weapon, defense (unbuffed) was 26 as in the breakdown I posted earlier; this was as expected since lightsabre forms are not supposed to affect combat with other weapons. After switching to a lightsabre the feedback log showed defense 22 with 'feats and effects' mod -4.

 

After this I equipped two defense boosters (total DB 5) and cast Enlightenment; if the 'feats and effects' mod were not capped this would have resulted in a mod of 15. Then I approached the Sith Lord again for a defense probing: with a melee weapon 'feats and effects' was 10 (i.e. cut off) but with the lightsabre it was 6. I think this clearly shows that form defense bonus is applied after any clamping to the mysterious limit of 10, since (15 - 4 = 11) > 10. Another indication is that a form bonus (like the +3 from Shii-Cho) can bring 'feats and effects' above 10.

 

P.S.: I guess that the clamping to 10 occurs when determining the 'static' defense rating as shown in the equip screen and special effects (lightsabre form, bonus against alignment like the +1 against DS from Nomi's Armband) are applied afterwards, when doing the calculations for a specific attack from a specific foe.

 

P.P.S.: I think if we take the two aspects into account - the 'split' of an armour suit's defense bonus into an 'armour' component and a 'feats and effects' component, and the clamping of 'feats and effects' to a ceiling of 10 at some intermediate point during defense calculations - then we can explain all discrepancies that we've seen so far. And without the clamping there would not be any problems at all.

[grayswandir]

Very interesting, Darth Frog. Given that you were in a miner's uniform which, as I recall, has a defense of 1, I take it you didn't observe this armor rating split that you mention in this particular calculation, unless you added some upgrades.

 

I haven't yet finished the game, so I haven't used enlightenment and so on yet, so I can't comment on that section (level 2 weaponmaster now..isn't enlightenment a Jedi Master power?).

 

Have you figured out any sort of rationale for why the defense rating on an armor (which shouldn't count as a "feat") is split into the feats and effects section, if it is? And if so, I wonder what fraction or other subset of the armor rating gets diverted into the capped feats and effects section. In my example, my armor gave a 7 bonus when its nominal rating was a 9, but I think the fraction was different in your example with the 14 AC armor.

 

I do know what you mean about NWN having a more well realized system, where AC bonuses come in various flavors - deflection and so on, and it's too bad this system isn't more sensible.

[Darth Frog]

Very interesting, Darth Frog. Given that you were in a miner's uniform which, as I recall, has a defense of 1, I take it you didn't observe this armor rating split that you mention in this particular calculation, unless you added some upgrades.

 

Well, there's only so many interesting ways to split a defense bonus of 1. :D The miner's outfit obviously has a 'real armour rating' of 1 and a 'feats and effects' component of 0; it is the reverse with all robes that I tested (RAR 0, all of the defense bonus in F&F - I checked normal robes, knight robes and master robes).

 

Since you get the full F&F mod of 10 from Master Speed + Force Armour already, the defense bonus from robes and items like Enhanced Shielding Visor or Expert Fencing Emitter is basically redundant for many characters during the later parts of the game.

 

JFTR, Zeison Sha Warrior Armour has AR 5 with a 3/2 split, Jal Shey Advisor Armour has 3 AR without split (RAR 3, F&F 0).

 

I haven't yet finished the game, so I haven't used enlightenment and so on yet, so I can't comment on that section (level 2 weaponmaster now..isn't enlightenment a Jedi Master power?).

 

I meant Force Enlightenment, which is the power you get lateish in the game (minor spoiler)

in the rebuilt enclave on Dantooine, unless you are DS in which case you get Force Crush (an offensive power, not to be confused with the Visas romancing option)

. For the purposes of this discussion Force Enlightenment is equivalent to casting your highest Speed spell and your highest Force Armour spell. (And for the purposes of playing the game Force Enlightenment is extremely useful and convenient. :D)

 

Have you figured out any sort of rationale for why the defense rating on an armor (which shouldn't count as a "feat") is split into the feats and effects section, if it is?

 

I guess the only way to get to the bottom of this would be to catch a couple of the devs and place them in poetry appreciation chairs^W^W^Wtorture restraints. I wonder whose interrogation protocols would be more effective - HK-47, HK-50, or G0-T0?

 

I do know what you mean about NWN having a more well realized system, where AC bonuses come in various flavors - deflection and so on, and it's too bad this system isn't more sensible.

 

Well, the KotOR/TSL system is actually very simple - all defense boni stack, no distinction between Armour mod, Shield mod, Dodge mod and so on with some mods stacking and some not (I think only Dodge mods are supposed to stack in d20). The problems arise only from the mysterious cap on the 'feats and effects' mod.

 

There may be some minor bugs - IIRC the game actually applies a negative DEX 'bonus' and this is not consistent - but on the whole all the confusion seems to be due to he F&F mod cap. And without this cap the strange armour rating split into RAR and F&F would have no effect except for a slightly confusing defense breakdown.