EnderAndrew Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 As I've discussed before, I don't care for the alignment system. Who truly believes themself to be evil, or acts evil for the sake of evil? I believe most villians in our history believed what they were doing was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 Ah, but some of them knew they were evil, didn't they? That's gotta count for something. I guess if philosophers can't agree on what is evil (absolute or relative) then we're going to struggle. Question: What alignment is Harry Callaghan (from the Dirty Harry novels and the quintology)? Someone on the NwN Hall of Fame suggested Lawful Evil, but I don't think this is true. I think he's more Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies; after all, he is trying to make the world a better place (Good) any way it needs to be done (Chaotic), even if it takes an evil act (Neutral). OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 I have met people both professionally and accidentally who I have no hesitation in describing as evil. Understanding how they arrived at where they were could not alter the fact that they were potentially extremely dangerous and a threat to essentially anyone who came near them. Just one of the fun parts of having worked as an investigative journalist! I can't remember what alignment I'd be. I have a fairly consistent code of ethics I try to stick to, but the hungrier and more scared I've been, the less attention I paid to it. I would suggest that this is true of most people. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Ah, but that just means that you -- like most of us -- would be prepared to compromise the "lawful" absolutism depending on the circumstances. And obviously hunger is a pretty mitigating circumstance. So you might start off as Neutral and -- if circumstances demanded it, slip to Chaotic Neutral. *Comicbook Geek voice* "It is very rare to encounter the Lawful Good journalist. They most often end up as feed for the more ferocious political and corporate carnivores." OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 I think rooting for the New York Yankees is evil. Evil is subjective from person to person. Chaos and Order however, is more of a scale that people can agree on. The evil/good axis is one to debate for the ages. When I run White Wolf, people often argue when I call for morality/humanity checks. I have a gal playing an Assamite with True Faith, and we debate here and there what is the "right" thing to do in a given situation. What she may believe to be righteous, I may see as wicked. It's a difficult scale, and one I don't care for. I really prefer White Wolf's nature and demeanor over an alignment system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 I haven't played White Wolf, can you summarise (briefly) the nature and demeanour pros and cons correlated to alignment? (You may begin perusal time now, then after fifteen minutes you may begin the exam. At no time in the first fifteen minutes are you permitted to pick up a pen or writing implement. Begin!) OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BicycleOfDeath Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Neutral/Lawful Evil (thats my interpretation of it) I have a very strong moral system I live by, though most other's with the beliefs hate me for my alterations to it. I strongly dispise religion, I'm quite selfish when it comes to this. I don't really care about the wellbeing of others in any way shape or form (with few exceptions). I don't agree with a few community requirements, authority enforced, out there, so I do not obide by them. Though, I will happily accept the consequences. I enjoy revenge and take "friendships" lightly. Hence why I'm in my living quarters solo at the moment... and enjoying it. Stand Your Convictions and You Will Walk Alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Neutral/Lawful Evil (thats my interpretation of it) I have a very strong moral system I live by, though most other's with the beliefs hate me for my alterations to it. I strongly dispise religion, I'm quite selfish when it comes to this. I don't really care about the wellbeing of others in any way shape or form (with few exceptions). I don't agree with a few community requirements, authority enforced, out there, so I do not obide by them. Though, I will happily accept the consequences. I enjoy revenge and take "friendships" lightly. Hence why I'm in my living quarters solo at the moment... and enjoying it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do you think that equates to Clint Eastwood's character (I haven't read the novels)? Question:What alignment is Harry Callaghan (from the Dirty Harry novels and the quintology)? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What troubles me is that I share some of the sentiments that you express, too, yet I think I fall a little north of you on the alignment map ... OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BicycleOfDeath Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 There are things I'd prefer not to share do to being a moderator. Like what happens to all the bad members of these boards. But yes, I could see myself as LN or TN... but I included my sense of humour in my alignment judgement. Stand Your Convictions and You Will Walk Alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 I realise this is way off the topic, but why do you despise reigions? I'm interested. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BicycleOfDeath Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 *has interesting memories from a former moderating job and chuckles maddly at himself* *clears his throat* ... no ... What other alignments are out there that have not yet posted? Stand Your Convictions and You Will Walk Alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 ...What other alignments are out there that have not yet posted? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why, the ones that hide themselves for best effect, of course. elementary, my dear crazy ... er ... joe. So any Chaotic Evil people out there * points determinedly away from self * are hardly going to metaphorically stick their hand up to be gawped at by all the goody-two-shoes who have posted so far, or indeed laughed at by all the other CE people who have kept a low profile ... OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 And anyone who's Chaotic Neutral is a nutjob by default, so... kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 I resemble that comment! OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Too bad kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted June 13, 2005 Author Share Posted June 13, 2005 And anyone who's Chaotic Neutral is a nutjob by default, so... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Akchully, I already called CN, so you've got at least one of them. And am I a nutjob? Wait, don't answer that. Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Owned without any effort whatsoever kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 White Wolf doesn't have alignment. In it's place it has a nature/demeanor, as well as a morality path rating. Your nature represents your true nature, and you choose an archetype for it. Your demeanor is how you are perceived by the world. For instance, I am playing a corrupting Lasombra infernalist. His nature is called Eye of the Storm. He gets off on creating chaos, and distabling people's beliefs. His demeanor is one of an Autocrat, who maintains order. Most see him as quite stodgy. Your nature and demeanor don't have to be opposites however. One might be a Pedantic Judge for instance. Your morality path is a set of beliefs you adhere to, and there are many variations. I'm on Path of Night for instance, which has a heirarchy of sins. I maintain based upon my virtues a Path rating. If I commit a sin whose rating equals my path rating or lower, I risk losing ground on my morality path. When your morality path is zero, you lose your sanity as it were, and your character is taken over by the primal beast within all vampires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Interesting. Is there an online resource that I might read up on this particular aspect at leisure? (In other words: linky?) OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Interesting. Is there an online resource that I might read up on this particular aspect at leisure? (In other words: linky?) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> White Wolf has recently thrown their entire universe aside, destroyed it with an apocalypse, and started anew. I haven't read over the new World of Darkness as much, though I keep hearing the rules are even more streamlined and balanced. I do believe the new system keeps the nature/demeanor and morality paths. www.white-wolf.com They may have quick-start rules, demos and the like there. Or just go to a Barnes and Noble and crack open a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 My nearest Barnes & Noble is now over six hours away, at comercial jet airspeed. But I shall look online (I was only interested in the alternative to the alignment system, at this point.) OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Interesting. Is there an online resource that I might read up on this particular aspect at leisure? (In other words: linky?) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> White Wolf has recently thrown their entire universe aside, destroyed it with an apocalypse, and started anew. I haven't read over the new World of Darkness as much, though I keep hearing the rules are even more streamlined and balanced. I do believe the new system keeps the nature/demeanor and morality paths. www.white-wolf.com They may have quick-start rules, demos and the like there. Or just go to a Barnes and Noble and crack open a book. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This system is also used in the Aeon Trinity game by G.A. Effinger. Anyway, I don't agree that good/evil is purely subjective. Lawful is one thing. Good is not. Good I would define as an emphasis on contributing to the health, stability and well being of others. Evil I would define as the reverse. Evil destroys the structure of things to revel in the energy given off. Good contributes to the order of a structure to benefit from the orderly functioning of the structure. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted June 14, 2005 Author Share Posted June 14, 2005 Anyway, I don't agree that good/evil is purely subjective. Lawful is one thing. Good is not. Good I would define as an emphasis on contributing to the health, stability and well being of others. Evil I would define as the reverse. Evil destroys the structure of things to revel in the energy given off. Good contributes to the order of a structure to benefit from the orderly functioning of the structure. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But I think there is some room for being subjective. For instance, many people define altruism as good, and selfishness as evil. A philosophy like Objectivism, on the other hand, defines selfishness as good (though it doesn't use the conventional definition of selfishness), and altruism as evil. But going by the definitions provided in the Player's Handbook, altruism is good, while a philosophy like Objectivism is Chaotic Neutral, so there is considerable disagreement over the terms good and evil. Your definitions there seem to be of Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil. What about an evil tyrant who holds an iron grip on order and the structure of his nation, in order to benefit almost solely from it's orderly functioning? Or a freedom fighter who brings down said tyrant and destroys the structure of government? Those would be Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good (thought the latter could also be CN), respectively. Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Phantom Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 A bunch of my characters are True Neutral, but the way I play them better suits a Neutral Good character, so I've started to just start off that way... :ph34r: Geekified Star Wars Geek Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" -Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom) "The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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