Who was the best of the best lightsaber user?

[Darth Mortis]

That's not always true; as long as a style has martial merit it will stay practiced. It's only when there is a clearly superior style that one will be succeeded and dropped entirely. Or when all those who know the style are gone and the knowledge is lost.

 

Not always, there are real life fencing forms that are used in some areas that have next to no real martial merit-of course you could argue that fencing in general has little to no martial merit in the real word, since swords are only used on the parade ground these days.

 

In a StarWars context it would be safe to assume that the forms as they stand have been around so long for a number of reasons;

 

The current forms are the development of millenia, and contain all the experience gained over that time. As such they could be considered to cover everything that was in earlier (unknown) forms.

 

You have to learn some forms in order to learn others, Therefore some of the lightsabre forms might have stayed around not because they are/were really effective, but because you had to learn them for other reasons. For example Niman is cited as a form you have to learn before you can learn Juyo.

 

The comment Kriea makes about the Sith of long ago on K2 should be taken with a pinch of salt. While I'm not saying she was lying-apart from anything else there is no reason for her to lie about this-it should be considered that all her information is from second or third hand sources at best, she never saw these Sith lords in action herself (Which also implies that there were no recordings of them in battle for someone to study) and she stated that the only primary source of information was lost long ago. Because of this I'm wary of taking her statment as being one of absolute thruth-If the information about these Sith came from other Sith they might have overstated quite how good these swordsmen were, maybe because they were their followers and were singing their praises, because they were opponets who wanted to explain why they never beat them, or because they did beat them and they wanted their victory to sound better. (I beat the best swordsman in the galaxy sounds better than I beat the guy who once cut his own leg off during training).

Even if Kreia is correct there could be other reasons for the Sith of old being better swordsmen than later years. It could be that they simply faught more often-given the history of the Sith more than likely-so they were simply more experienced than later generations. Or it could be that the Sith Kreia was talking about invented one or more of the current forms-whoever invented and used Juyo first would have a major advantage over opponents for example. (Consider that the first Iron Clad warships would always win a fight against conventonal wooden sailing ships, not because they had better crews or weapons but because they were effectivly immune to the cannons of the older ships).

One other thing to consider about Kreia's statment is that we don't know if all the Sith she was talking about were using conventinal blades or lightsabres-and yes it makes a difference. While the basic forms and styles could be used with either there would be some moves you could not do with a conventonal blade but could with a lightsabre and vice versa. For example if your sword has a single edge you could hold it against the forearm while blocking, which you couldn't do with a lightsabre. Since lightsabre blades have no weight they can be manipulated more accuratly and more quickly, and since a lightsabre blade will cut whatever it touches regardless of the amount of force behind the blow or which part of the blade makes contact, it can be assumed that lightsabre fighters use much more rapid and shallower movements than conventonal swords. Someone who mastered a lightsabre at a time when his/her opponents were still using swords is going to chew them up very quickly.

 

Well, first of all might i say; that i really don't like the 'Super-powerful' characters; as if they are that powerful things seem really pointless.

 

Agreed, its getting silly with all these superpowerful force users running around-mainly because most of them seem to be Sith, which raises the questions as to; Why we are never shown any Jedi who fall into this grouping, except Luke Skywalker. Why, if the Sith keep turning up these demi-gods, none of them managed to totally wipe out the Jedi order long ago-are they that imcompitent?

 

Now i also want to point out; you actually can't wield a double sabre as artfully as a normal sabre. The maneuvrability of a single blade is far more substantial than the two; in terms of the 'Seven forms'.

 

A double sabre requires a completely different technique to a normal one; and alot of what you can do with one you can't with two. So you wouldn't want to learn the 'Seven forms' with a double; because a form for the double (alone) would be far more effective.

 

You can use the standard seven forms with a dual bladed sabre, or with two single blades at once-Windu used Vaapad while duel welding sabres, so their is no technical reason why you couldn't learn all seven forms or use any of them with a duel sabre. Practice is another matter. Maul was said to be using Juyo when he was fighting, and since I have heard someone once say that duel blades are for people who want to create as much damage as possible I would assume that is the 'standard' form used with duel blades. More defensive forms for use against blasters would prove a problem. As you said the duel blade sabre can't do some things as well as a single blade, down to the simple fact that you can't hold it in some positions as the second blade would hit you. The diffence in techniques between duel and single sabres is that the former requires the user to be constantly moving around to bring the blades into position, while the latter can get away with just moving the sabre alone. If you have pleanty of room to dance around duel blades are at least as good as a single blade-if not slightly better since you can bring the other blade into action for a counter attack quickly-but woe betide the duel sabre fighter who ends up in a confined space or who is unable to dance around.

[DeathScepter]

Hehe...my bad; it was you who said that; or rather something to that accord;

 

Even the weakest system is better when a user makes it combat ready than a most perfect combat ready system with a lazy schutta whom doesn't make it combat ready for that user.

 

(also; i apologise for my terrible 'more better'; had a thought then changed it; or rather changed the wording; only didn't erase enough words)

 

Although; another point you made about some of the masters from the pre AOTC era being way too powerful i completely agree with.

 

I prefer to look at the Jedi (and Sith) presented in the films as the best examples for the 'most powerful' force-users; because they seem to have adequate limits.

 

Although; i too am a bit of a Revan fan; though i must admit i don't know as much about him (canonically) as some. And i also agree he'd be pushing it (from my point of view; he'd probably even be too powerful) really for (limited) 'super-force-users'.

 

 

 

Even after RotJ, Luke and many of his jedis(even angsty pant Jacen) are quite powerful in the force.

[seejai]

Although, tachnically we don't know if Mace could've taken Grevious (nor Yoda); they never got the chance to my knowledge.

 

But i think Obi-wan really should be one of the higher contenders.

 

Mace couldn't-it is mentioned in the book (and I think it was seen in the clone wars animated series) that Mace fought Grevious on Corasant just prior to the opening of the film. (The reason Grevious was coughing at the start of that film was because Mace force crushed Grevious during that fight-this is mentioned on the comentory for the DVD). Mace couldn't get past Grevious's defenses, which was (mentioned in the book anyway) why they sent Obi-Wan after Grevious rather than any of the other Jedi masters.

 

Given this, and that (again, in the book at least) Mace says that Obi-Wan was a better swordsman than himself leads me to hand the title to Obi-Wan over everyone else. Even going off battles fought Obi-Wan is the only one of his time to face no less than three Sith lords (Maul, Dooku and Vader), beat two of them (Maul and Vader) and although he didn't beat Dooku he faced him twice and lived to tell the tale....admittidly only because Yoda showed up to distract Dooku before he could finish Obi-Wan off in the first fight, and Anakin was there to fight Dooku in the second case.

 

so thennn.... was he the sith'ari ?(i bet i wrote that wrong)

[Darth Scelus]

Not always, there are real life fencing forms that are used in some areas that have next to no real martial merit-of course you could argue that fencing in general has little to no martial merit in the real word, since swords are only used on the parade ground these days.

 

In a StarWars context it would be safe to assume that the forms as they stand have been around so long for a number of reasons;

 

The current forms are the development of millenia, and contain all the experience gained over that time. As such they could be considered to cover everything that was in earlier (unknown) forms.

 

You have to learn some forms in order to learn others, Therefore some of the lightsabre forms might have stayed around not because they are/were really effective, but because you had to learn them for other reasons. For example Niman is cited as a form you have to learn before you can learn Juyo.

 

True; and yes i agree that fencing has no martial merit in today's world (which is a bit of pity). The only thing is that those 'ineffective' forms (if any) would never be used in battle; they would obviously have other merits that keep them in circulation (perhaps Tradition alone); and also there is always someone who keeps a style going (despite any inadequacies).

 

And also true; the forms that are now present would all have significant merit, due to their age. Hence their longevity has been proven in terms of quality.

 

True, Shii-cho can be effective (when mastered to the right degree) but it's main merit is that it is simple and can be taught to novices quite easily; also it teaches them in all the basics so they can learn the more complicated forms.

 

Shii-cho's combat merit though is it's simplicity.

 

The comment Kriea makes about the Sith of long ago on K2 should be taken with a pinch of salt...they wanted their victory to sound better. (I beat the best swordsman in the galaxy sounds better than I beat the guy who once cut his own leg off during training).

 

Agreed.

 

Even if Kreia is correct there could be other reasons for the Sith of old being better swordsmen than later years. It could be that they simply faught more often-given the history of the Sith more than likely-so they were simply more experienced than later generations. Or it could be that the Sith Kreia was talking about invented one or more of the current forms-whoever invented and used Juyo first would have a major advantage over opponents for example. (Consider that the first Iron Clad warships would always win a fight against conventonal wooden sailing ships, not because they had better crews or weapons but because they were effectivly immune to the cannons of the older ships).

 

Agreed. Also on that point; the older Jedi/Sith probably were better swordsmen; as they were involved in wars between both sides (hence more combat experience, as you pointed out earlier).

 

True, in part. Juyo would've given an advantage over other wielders in a sense; it's concentration on offense and it's new 'force-manipulation' would've been something a little surpirsing.

 

Although as it has been said; it's not the form that matters but how well it is mastered; any Masters of the other forms could compensate and beat a Juyo practitioner if they were good enough. Although given that Juyo is considered to be the pinacle of swordplay any master can reach; once it was invented and came into circulation all the 'super' masters would try it out...although some would probably be put off by its risks and what have you.

 

Again, no form is really superior to another (well if they are then the ones that aren't are kept in practice for other reasons, as has been said earlier); it's simply a question of the weilder.

 

One other thing to consider about Kreia's statment is that we don't know if all the Sith she was talking about were using conventinal blades or lightsabres-and yes it makes a difference.

 

True, in all considerations; a lightsabre is far superior to a normal sword.

 

While the basic forms and styles could be used with either there would be some moves you could not do with a conventonal blade but could with a lightsabre and vice versa. For example if your sword has a single edge you could hold it against the forearm while blocking, which you couldn't do with a lightsabre. Since lightsabre blades have no weight they can be manipulated more accuratly and more quickly, and since a lightsabre blade will cut whatever it touches regardless of the amount of force behind the blow or which part of the blade makes contact, it can be assumed that lightsabre fighters use much more rapid and shallower movements than conventonal swords. Someone who mastered a lightsabre at a time when his/her opponents were still using swords is going to chew them up very quickly.

 

True.

 

Agreed, its getting silly with all these superpowerful force users running around-mainly because most of them seem to be Sith, which raises the questions as to; Why we are never shown any Jedi who fall into this grouping, except Luke Skywalker. Why, if the Sith keep turning up these demi-gods, none of them managed to totally wipe out the Jedi order long ago-are they that imcompitent?

 

Yeah; unless of course there's always a Jedi that is equally powerful available; but then it seems really pointless. The thing is the characters (to me anyway) get tiresome when they are that powerful; problems aren't a problem (if you'll excuse the pun); they can do anything and that seems a little self-defeating.

 

You can use the standard seven forms with a dual bladed sabre, or with two single blades at once-Windu used Vaapad while duel welding sabres, so their is no technical reason why you couldn't learn all seven forms or use any of them with a duel sabre.

 

Practice is another matter. Maul was said to be using Juyo when he was fighting, and since I have heard someone once say that duel blades are for people who want to create as much damage as possible I would assume that is the 'standard' form used with duel blades.

 

Well technically true; the technique of the seven forms could be adapted to fighting with a duel sabre. But they would be considerabley different; and wouldn't follow any of the moves; more they would just follow the 'idea' behind the form.

 

Although they still wouldn't be as effective as a 'duel-sabre' form.

 

And that also goes for the duel-wielding; they forms would be very different. And also; i actually think that Mace wasn't using Vaapad at the time; he probably was using Jar'Kai mostly; with some adaptations from Vaapad.

 

The thing is; while the forms could be adapted to another weapon; the other weapon or other mid-set for weilding is substantially different from a single sabre; and dedicated forms to these weapons would be far more effective (although the 'ideas' of the other forms could be adapted into this).

 

For example; you'd never use a katana in a 'fencing' style; it's just not designed for it.

 

Well your point about Maul/Juyo and duel-sabres does have a lot of merit; Juyo is a very aggressive form; and coupled with a duel-sabre; it would suit a weilder only concerned with destruction. But again; a dedicated duel-sabre technique coupled with the ideas of Juyo would be far more effective.

 

I concede your point, in part; all the 'techniques' of the other forms could be adapted to duel-sabre or duel-wielding; however there would be forms based solely for these other styles; Jar'Kai for example; and these would form the foundation of the style; with inspiration from the other forms.

 

More defensive forms for use against blasters would prove a problem. As you said the duel blade sabre can't do some things as well as a single blade, down to the simple fact that you can't hold it in some positions as the second blade would hit you. The diffence in techniques between duel and single sabres is that the former requires the user to be constantly moving around to bring the blades into position, while the latter can get away with just moving the sabre alone. If you have pleanty of room to dance around duel blades are at least as good as a single blade-if not slightly better since you can bring the other blade into action for a counter attack quickly-but woe betide the duel sabre fighter who ends up in a confined space or who is unable to dance around.

 

Also true. Again; everything has its weakness.

 

Even after RotJ, Luke and many of his jedis(even angsty pant Jacen) are quite powerful in the force.

 

True; although i don't know that much about the 'post-empire' period. Nor any of the characters; other than they used new styles; given that the 'seven forms' had been more or less lost.

 

Again, any character that is too powerful is rather pointless.

[chris the jedi killer]

revan

[Blade-m]

Obi-wan was the worst. How many times did Anakin save his skin! Obi-wan never beat Darth Maul, Maul beat himself. I would say Sidious was the best. Windu never beat him, he was sucked into sidious plot to turn Anakin to the dark side.

[Darth Scelus]

Obi-wan was the worst. How many times did Anakin save his skin! Obi-wan never beat Darth Maul, Maul beat himself. I would say Sidious was the best. Windu never beat him, he was sucked into sidious plot to turn Anakin to the dark side.

 

Well first of all; i don't think Obi-wan was the worst; well not at the time of ROTS. Before that, yeah; he wasn't the best; but i think it would be fair to give him the benefit of the doubt; firstly;

 

When he fought Maul; he was an apprentice;

 

Secondly;

 

After that he re-ordered his preferred fighting style; meaning he had to learn a completely new style from scratch; also given that now he was a Knight he probably would've had to most of that by himself; or maybe taught under Yoda; in either case he had to learn a new form and that would take a long time.

 

But by the time of ROTS he was probably one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi order; while i dislike most of the examples for why this was; i will say this; he could hold off Grevious; and that takes serious skill...although i'm not too fond of that example and Grevious isn't force-sensetive.

He mightn't have been the best; but he was definitely a serious contender.

 

Sidious being the best is possible; i agree whether Mace beat Sidious is dubious; frankly; it was either manipulation (as you point out); or Mace got lucky; Sidious made the slightest mistake and Mace grabbed his chance. Not to say Mace wasn't coming very close to being equal with Sidious if not equal to him already.

 

However, i think Yoda beats Sidious;

 

Yoda kept up with Sidious for their entire fight; what's more; Yoda must have disarmed Sidious;

 

(either because he was a better swordsman or he got lucky)

 

Although it doesn't show it; when Yoda confronts Sidious again in close quaters (when they both land on the same senate pod) Sidious doesn't draw his lightsabre;

 

It's close quarters and he has to instead use force-lightning; ... that really seems like a desperate tactic to me; which i think also implies he had lost his lightsabre before that; and given that Dooku would've informed him of Yoda's capabilities; force-lightning seems like a futile move;

 

Even if Sidious still had his lightsabre; he must've realised Yoda could best him; so instead he used the lightning.

 

I personally think Yoda should get the title (even though i gave my vote to Mace).

[DeathScepter]

Yet Sidious force Yoda to flee from the battle.

[DAWUSS]

... and how long before we add Vader's apprentice (Force Unleashed) into this mix?

[DeathScepter]

Due to his uberness, I already hate him.......................... But I will still get the game to see how much I hate him.

 

 

<------------------------is sick and tired of all of the uber force users in the EU and the movies.

[Darth Scelus]

Yet Sidious force Yoda to flee from the battle.

 

 

Actually i don't think that was the case; i think it was more; Yoda sensed the fact that an army of Clone troppers was about to enter the battle in support of Sidious; and he realised he just couldn't win against such over-whelming odds; add to the fact that i personally believe Yoda was desperately trying to redeem himself from his failure with Anakin; and hence as the fight progressed Yoda's motivation wained.

 

Also; on the Wiki page about Yoda; it proposed that during the fight; Yoda managed to break through the 'murkiness' of the force and see the future clearly...and realising he was to play (perhaps) a different part (more important even); he couldn't risk dying then.

 

But even if that's not the case; Yoda had lost his lightsabre; and the Clones were going to be ontop of him in short time; he just couldn't beat everyone all at once.

 

 

is sick and tired of all of the uber force users in the EU and the movies

 

I get the others...but might i ask which ones from the movies?

 

To me most of the stuff in the movies was 'ideally' powerful; no one seemed too powerful; even Yoda had limitations...

 

the lightning wasn't too ostentatious; nor 'un-beatable' and all that anyone else did was chuck reasonably sized objects at one another (or use gravity to its full effect).

[Darth Mortis]

Although as it has been said; it's not the form that matters but how well it is mastered;

 

Perfectly true, the most powerful weapon ever developed is only as effective as the person using it.

 

any Masters of the other forms could compensate and beat a Juyo practitioner if they were good enough.

Although given that Juyo is considered to be the pinacle of swordplay any master can reach; once it was invented and came into circulation all the 'super' masters would try it out...although some would probably be put off by its risks and what have you.

 

I'm not sure that anyone would really consider Juyo to be the 'best' of all the forms-in fact this slightly contadicts your comments about all the forms having their strengths, but also having weaknesses. Juyo might be considered the 'best' for a one on one fight in many ways (The Sith would probably agree with this), but it would still have drawbacks-being so agressive the main weakness is quite likely to be a form of tunnel vision, where you concentrate so much on one opponent that you can miss a sudden or new threat until its too late to do anything about it.

 

All forms of warfair and fighting follow an evolutonary model, and I imagine the Lightsabre forms would too-there is no reason why they shouldn't, and using real world sword styles as a guide, every reason why they should.

 

What happens is that someone invents a new form a warfair/fighting/weapon, and for a while it reins supreme since no one has the faitest clue how to deal with it. Over time however methords are developed that counteract the advantage-sometimes by copying what the other person is doing. For example the Tank was a weapon the Germans in WW1 had great trouble with, they countered this by trying to make their own (copying what the other guy was doing) and then by figuring out the weaknesses of Tanks and modifying their current weapons (Say, by including more armour Peirceing rounds than they had before).

 

Forms that don't/didn't work in battle would quickly be dropped, as anyone using them is going to be killed, so all the seven lightsabre forms must, logically, fall into one of two groups; Those that are effective in battle in some way-The Maskatui form was a very powerful form for lightsabre combat, as Dooku proved, but while wasn't used or really learnt much because it was next to useless against blasters, it could be assumed that it remained around as it could still be useful in a duel.

 

Those that are required in order to learn another form-as I said Nimian is needed before you can learn Juyo, even if after Genosis no one used it.

 

One thing that is a *DOH!* moment for both of us was the assumption that Juyo was a Sith invented form. The problem here is that the Jedi knew it as well, which would to me imply that Juyo was developed by the Jedi and passed onto the Sith at least in part. (I can't see the Sith giving the Jedi instruction for their own style, or the Jedi following a Sith form, so I can only conclude that Juyo was invented by the Jedi and passed on by an errant Jedi who became a Sith).

 

I would also raise one comment about a form circulating; While quite true and reasonable for the Jedi, I can't see a Sith Lord with a major advantage (a new powerful form) willingly passing on information about it to anyone else-this would be against the Sith mindset, at least in the millenia's before Darth Bane. This would bring us full circle back to Kreia's comments about the Sith of old, since it could be taken that Juyo is a copy of a much older Sith form developed by one of the old Sith Lords but who's details were lost with them.

[DeathScepter]

I do know that Palptine is GL creation but his Eu counter part is too uber.

[Darth Mortis]

I do know that Palptine is GL creation but his Eu counter part is too uber.

 

Yeah, you can say what you like about GL but he at least knew that as powerful as the bad guy might be, they still need to have a weakness the hero can use against them-or that will defeat them in the end. In Palpatines case it was overconfidence and arragance-he assumed he would win, and assumed that Vader would never turn against him......In the EU it always seems as though the 'Uber Force user of this trilogy' is either beaten into a bloody pulp, beaten by accident or beaten by something out of their control.

[DeathScepter]

that is true. But the uberness kills Star Wars for me

[Darth Scelus]

You made some good points before that i didn't realise were there; (missed reading them); so i'd like to respond to them, now...

 

I do see your point, and useing the form in real combat would allow you to fully understand a forms strengths and its weaknesses. However you really would want to test any new form as fully as you could in a situation where discovering its weaknesses doesn't involve dying shortly afterwards. That would take time, and I would assume that (Ironically) the middle of a war would not be the best time to start messing around with a new fighting techneque without a very good reason-I'd assume that Mace was quite skilled using Vaapad before the clone wars started or he would have stayed with Juyo during the war.

 

True. Although again Mace finishing Juyo makes more sense in this regard. Also i figure that 'completing' Juyo probably would've been alot more meditation than swordplay; as alot it being the mind stuff.

 

I have to agree that your explination does make the best sense, and also would explain why Vaapad is listed as form seven(?) along with Juyo, rather than being form eight.

 

That too, although both Shien and Djem So are listed as form 5; although again they are based off the same common premices in their sowrdplay.

 

I do feel the need, however, to point out that there were some Jedi who were using Juyo so the basic form didn't need tinkering for Jedi to pick it up as such. It might be more correct to say that Vaapad is Juyo at its full potential, rather than completed.

 

That kin've what i meant by 'completed'; Jedi could never master Juyo to its 'full-potential' because they would fall to the dark side doing so...also why Vaapad could never be mastered by the Sith.

 

Since Juyo is an agressive form and Jedi are not meant to be agressive it could be safely assumed that the Jedi version of Juyo is probably not quite the equal of the Sith version. From everything I've read about how Vaapad seems to work it could be said that Vaapad is as close to the Sith version of Juyo as they can get, and at least its equal-if not better in fact, since the Jedi has to be more careful about maintaining control it probably would provide a slightly more defensive mindset, as well as allowing the user to plan ahead better than a Sith who's caught up in a fight.

 

The defenses of Juyo are still present; although it's kind've every defensive move is also an attack (i know it sounds contradictory, but it is possible, to a point) to a point; although no form is complete without defensive maneuvres.

 

And yes true; a Jedi could keep a cooler head in a fight and hence out-smart the sith; although a good swordsmaster doesn't let themselves get too caught up with the fight; though with sith...

 

I'm not sure that anyone would really consider Juyo to be the 'best' of all the forms-in fact this slightly contadicts your comments about all the forms having their strengths, but also having weaknesses. Juyo might be considered the 'best' for a one on one fight in many ways (The Sith would probably agree with this), but it would still have drawbacks-being so agressive the main weakness is quite likely to be a form of tunnel vision, where you concentrate so much on one opponent that you can miss a sudden or new threat until its too late to do anything about it.

 

Yeah, i guess it does, sorry about that; what i meant though is more that you can't even start Juyo before mastering several other forms; and in that regard Juyo can only be mastered by the highest masters...but your point is completely true; Yoda used Ataru (in my view, in superiority) against every one.

 

And yes, true about the 'tunnel vision'; although again a skilled swordsmaster tries not to concentrate too much on the fight; but that is (very) hard (for most people) to do. And yes all the forms have their weakness.

 

 

All forms of warfair and fighting follow an evolutonary model, and I imagine the Lightsabre forms would too-there is no reason why they shouldn't, and using real world sword styles as a guide, every reason why they should.

 

What happens is that someone invents a new form a warfair/fighting/weapon, and for a while it reins supreme since no one has the faitest clue how to deal with it. Over time however methords are developed that counteract the advantage-sometimes by copying what the other person is doing. For example the Tank was a weapon the Germans in WW1 had great trouble with, they countered this by trying to make their own (copying what the other guy was doing) and then by figuring out the weaknesses of Tanks and modifying their current weapons (Say, by including more armour Peirceing rounds than they had before).

 

True. Although it wouldn't take any real adaptation for a swordsmaster to adjust to fighting the new style; he would be taken off guard by it at first though.

 

Though my point; that the Jedi would've based Lightsabre combat off (almost) all known fighting forms; they would still evolve (or else Shii-cho would be the only form); but the 'evolution' of the forms seemed to have slowed for several Millenia; which means there's really very little that can improve them.

 

Forms that don't/didn't work in battle would quickly be dropped, as anyone using them is going to be killed, so all the seven lightsabre forms must, logically, fall into one of two groups; Those that are effective in battle in some way-The Maskatui form was a very powerful form for lightsabre combat, as Dooku proved, but while wasn't used or really learnt much because it was next to useless against blasters, it could be assumed that it remained around as it could still be useful in a duel.

 

Those that are required in order to learn another form-as I said Nimian is needed before you can learn Juyo, even if after Genosis no one used it.

 

My point also; again all the seven form must have had some merit; they were all capable of being used to highest mastery equally; if one would put it the work.

 

One thing that is a *DOH!* moment for both of us was the assumption that Juyo was a Sith invented form. The problem here is that the Jedi knew it as well, which would to me imply that Juyo was developed by the Jedi and passed onto the Sith at least in part. (I can't see the Sith giving the Jedi instruction for their own style, or the Jedi following a Sith form, so I can only conclude that Juyo was invented by the Jedi and passed on by an errant Jedi who became a Sith).

 

Actually that's a good point, (and yeah, the Jedi wouldn't copy a Sith form (though they wouldn't need (total) instruction; by observing the form they could at least get the basics))...

 

...although that raises a HUGE contradiction in Juyo...

 

Juyo is an agressive form; and full completion (whether by design or by its natural course) invovles falling to the dark side;

and hence, i would think, the Jedi would be very reluctant (if at all) to design such a form...perhaps they didn't realise quite what they were designing at the time...

 

...or it was designed out of necessity; perhaps during one of the wars...

 

...perhaps it was a Sith form; the Jedi were fighting the sith and just couldn't beat them with the existing forms; due to Juyo being the new 'tank'; and hence they had to develop some 'armour-peircing' techniques; and the only way they figured they could was by using a form similar to Juyo (again by observing)...

 

Again Juyo is a shady area....

 

I would also raise one comment about a form circulating; While quite true and reasonable for the Jedi, I can't see a Sith Lord with a major advantage (a new powerful form) willingly passing on information about it to anyone else-this would be against the Sith mindset, at least in the millenia's before Darth Bane. This would bring us full circle back to Kreia's comments about the Sith of old, since it could be taken that Juyo is a copy of a much older Sith form developed by one of the old Sith Lords but who's details were lost with them.

 

Interesting.

 

Though again; Juyo is a shady area;

 

It's focus and capabilities seem to be (at least, slightly) against the Jedi mind-set; and it's full mastery can only be achieved by falling to the dark side.

 

So sith can use it far more effectively...hmmm....it seems, to me, that if the Jedi invented it; it was based out of desperation; either for something similar to the sith form; or because they didn't know what the end result was to be;

 

Though if it was invented by the Sith; it would eventually find its way into circulation; but that still makes it contradictory for a Jedi to practise it...

 

OK, i will say this, to me it seems more plausible that the Sith invented it; but that makes it really implausible for the Jedi to use it....and it's also implausible for the Jedi to have invented it; unless they didn't know what the end results would be...that seems the most plausible answer.

 

And yeah your point about the sith lord is very sith; each wants to be more powerful than the others; so they keep things to themselves; although, again, another sith could observe it and replicate it (to a point) and then teach another or have another do the same to him; etc. etc. until it was in common knowledge.

[Darth Scelus]

Since Juyo is an agressive form and Jedi are not meant to be agressive it could be safely assumed that the Jedi version of Juyo is probably not quite the equal of the Sith version. From everything I've read about how Vaapad seems to work it could be said that Vaapad is as close to the Sith version of Juyo as they can get, and at least its equal-if not better in fact, since the Jedi has to be more careful about maintaining control it probably would provide a slightly more defensive mindset, as well as allowing the user to plan ahead better than a Sith who's caught up in a fight.

 

The defenses of Juyo are still present; although it's kind've every defensive move is also an attack (i know it sounds contradictory, but it is possible, to a point) to a point; although no form is complete without defensive maneuvres.

 

And yes true; a Jedi could keep a cooler head in a fight and hence out-smart the sith; although a good swordsmaster doesn't let themselves get too caught up with the fight; though with sith...

 

Also might i add, just had the thought; that that may not be the case; as a Vaapad practitioner might be too concerned with not falling to the dark side; which could potentially distract them alot; while a Juyo (sith) practitioner wouldn't face that problem.

[Darth Caius]

Exile. XD

[DeathScepter]

Bumpity bump

 

 

Revan

[Darth Scelus]

It's the little green man for me.

 

Go Yoda.