LOSE THE F^_^ING CUT SCENES

[Azarkon]

CRPGs are an extension of D&D roleplaying. Not much guesswork involved here unless you want to nit-pick to the nth degree?

 

I said RPG, not CRPG, and yet even CRPGs (by which I assume you mean computer RPGs) are not all extensions of D&D roleplaying. Earlier CRPGs like Bard's Tale and Ultima had no "roleplaying", were not D&D, and was almost all combat with very little character development. Even the Gold Box games like Pools of Radiance are nothing like today's CRPGs except for possibly ToEE. Fallout and Arcanum are not D&D. BG/BG2 maybe D&D games but they are nothing like the earlier Gold Box D&D games, and their implementation of dialogue choices and NPC interactions make them into a different class of CRPGs, as does Torment. Daggerfall/Morrowind is on a level of their own, and so is Diablo, really.

 

These are all labeled as RPGs as far as gaming is concerned. Is there any game here that maybe called more of RPG than another? If so, then my previous post applies to you.

[Darque]

The lines are bluring though.

 

Dues Ex is considered by some an "rpg"... not a good sign in my opinion.

[Karzak]

The lines are bluring though.

 

Dues Ex is considered by some an "rpg"... not a good sign in my opinion.

Deus Ex (the first one) is as much an RPG as PS:T or KotOR.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Of course, its missing some of the more important things, like personal statistics, a world that reacts to what you do in a consistent manner, and a larger set of consequences to what you do.

[Karzak]

Of course, its missing some of the more important things, like personal statistics, a world that reacts to what you do in a consistent manner, and a larger set of consequences to what you do.

So what? Deus Ex is a role playing game, you play the role of JC Denton, just like you play the nameless one in PS:T or jedi doofis in KotOR.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Just like you play the role of the marine in Doom, right?

[mkreku]

Of course, its missing some of the more important things, like personal statistics, a world that reacts to what you do in a consistent manner, and a larger set of consequences to what you do.

Since when doesn't Deus Ex have personal statistics, a world that reacts to what you do or grand consequences of your actions? You seriously need to play that game before discussing it.

 

What is it you're not getting this time? Are you arguing for arguing's sake, by any chance?

[Karzak]

Just like you play the role of the marine in Doom, right?

No, completely different. In DE you PC does advance with selectable skills, and the story has three endings depending on which side you choose.

 

Did you ever play DE?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Since when doesn't Deus Ex have personal statistics,

 

Its obvious you're confusing statistics with skills.

 

Advancing in skills is something different. Your character (or rather, JC) doesn't have personal statistics, and he needed them. Otherwise, his not a character, but rather just a bland construct. If there are no skills and statistics determining the characters's output in the world, its not an RPG. Statistical values are an estimate of the character's prowess on a given field, and therefore can be repalced with a similar concept. It should be obvious that in an RPG, you play a character which is governed by its own skills and stats, as they determine the characters' success in everything. You can have a "straight" RPG, like Fallout, do this; or blur the line and go with Morrowind, which combines both. But at its core, your character always needs a set of characteristics that determine its functioning in the gameworld. Doesn't Dexterity, or a similar statistic, control how fast your character reacts? Doesn't Speed, or something like it, control how fast he moves? Doesn't Intelligence, or a similar concept, govern a character's cognitive functions? Aren't these necessary to measure a character's effectiveness? Yes. Without these, JC Denton is quite hollow, and his advancement is quite different from that of standard CRPG. When you remove those means of determining character success, and just create a blank character which never grows, never changes, never improves, and you have full control of its actions, its a dramatic change, which undos the concept of playing someone's role. In that moment you're just controlling an empty construct, and success in the gameword is only because of you, not the character. Same happens in Deus Ex because of a lack of stats. Skills still exist, but they don't cover the entire concept.

 

a world that reacts to what you

I didn't stated the world didn't reacted to what you do. If all you got running for yourself is putting words in other people's mouths, then i suggest stopping before your online persona suffers the backlash of your own lack of netiquette.

 

I said the game does not have a consistent reaction to what you do. Example? During the first time in Hell's Kitchen, try killing anyone in the Underworld Bar. Manderly will scold you. However, kill the riot cops, UNATCO troopers, civilians in the streets, and everyone inside the Free Clinic - in fact, kill children, drug addicts, people on the street and cops in the previous mission, then kill all these NPCs i mentioned in Hell's Kitchen. Manderley doesn't tell you anything. I'm supposed to work for a peace-keeping organization, yet, Manderely won't throw a fit because i just levelled almost an entire area? Why yes, that is just bloody consistent.

 

Another example would be automatically telling Manderley you deserve compensation after the Lebedev event, yet he tells you it's the last time he'll pay you because it's "clearly not what motivates you". After what - one second after i've just demanded payment?

 

do or grand consequences of your actions?

 

What players can do is not taken into consideration many times. Outside a reward, giving the Ambrosia to Dowd is useless. Finding the bomb in Jock's helicopter is useless, as it will only convinently explode when you don't need rides anymore. Saving Paul or not is useless, as there will be someone else to take his place in the holographic projection to furhter the storyline in Area 51. Instead of giving the vial of Ambrosia to Dowd, try saving it for Tong after he says he's contracted the Gray Death: the game won't acknowlegde it. Regardless of killing Lebedev or not, your next mission objective is the same. Perhaps the best example of a lack fo well measured consequences is that, regardless of what you do, you still get to "choose" between three endings in the later stages of the game. Doesnt' matter what you do, you will always get there the same way. Hell, if you save in the last level, you don't have to replay at all.

 

Great attention to consequences there, yessir.

 

You seriously need to play that game before discussing it.

Funny, given i've just brought down your supposed knowledge of the game and exposed your lack of commitment to what was being talked about due to your mouth-stuffing, that comes out as a big ol' slice of IRONY!

 

What is it you're not getting this time?

 

Careful son, your half-assed attempt at revenge against me for having smacked your head in the past because of your cluelesness is showing.

 

Are you arguing for arguing's sake, by any chance?

No, but you clearly are. Now, if you're quite trough with that great display of ridiculous attempt at talking of things you don't know, kindly stop bothering me and the people on this thread, and go do something useful.

 

 

No, completely different. In DE you PC does advance with selectable skills, and the story has three endings depending on which side you choose.

 

Did you ever play DE?

 

Spare me the "did you play the game" remark. I don't go talking about something i don't have knowledge of <_<

 

And multiple endings hardly make a game an RPG, though. Its how you get to them that counts. Having multiple game paths to reach them would surely make it closer to being an RPG. As it stands, its not much different from your common household FPS. Hell, Half-Life also had 2 endings, at the last stage, and you also got to choose. Does it make it an RPG? Hell no.

[Karzak]

LOL, posting an error in volume doesn't correct it, in DE you play a roll, having stats is secondary unless you are confusing rollplaying for roleplaying, which I guess you are.

[Gromnir]

"The problem with that is that Joe Schmoe, while not replaying all options, will think highly of the game because there are various options, regardless of them leading everywhere."

 

is not limited to bg fans. fo fans seems to think they gots disproportionate ability to change stuff, but all they do is have fewer essential plot points. sometimes the illusion becomes more powerful than the reality.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Diogo Ribeiro]

LOL, posting an error in volume doesn't correct it, in DE you play a roll, having stats is secondary unless you are confusing rollplaying for roleplaying, which I guess you are.

 

Stats are secondary? What a joke. How do you determine a character's success in roleplaying? Not combat, not just focusing on stats to become uber, not "rollplaying", but roleplaying. Interaction. Dialogue. Options like intimidation, bluff, convincing, etc. If you think that stats are only there for "rollplaying", you are sorely mistaken. Without stats you can't determine if a character succeeds in "roleplaying" as well. How do you determine if you'll bluff someone without a stat to determine, say, charisma? That goes for either a fixed value, or a percentile value. Do tell.

 

Unless you're of the minset that simply choosing dialogue lines is roleplaying?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

is not limited to bg fans. fo fans seems to think they gots disproportionate ability to change stuff, but all they do is have fewer essential plot points. sometimes the illusion becomes more powerful than the reality.

True to a point, yes.

[mkreku]

blah blah blah

As usual you start twisting and turning, like a rat in a trap. It's pointless having a discussion with you if you're going to leave out everything that makes (in this example) Deus Ex a RPG and focus on its faults. No, Deus Ex isn't a perfect game (which you've clearly pointed out, although it doesn't have anything to do with this discussion) but the game is, no matter how you try to convince people otherwise, in fact trying to be consistent AND have a world that reacts according to what you do. Sure, it fails sometimes (just Like Fallout/Fallout 2 did sometimes) but the idea is there, clearly for everyone to see, unless you decide you want to look in another direction. Like you just did.

 

And then we have another word problem. What is it with you and words? Why is it that if something isn't called "Strength", but instead is called "Augmentation", and both does the exact same thing, you don't think it's a personal statistic? Or did you choose to ignore the augmentations all together because they don't use generic RPG names? The augmentations gave you speed, stealth, strength, intelligence and whatever else you wanted, were upgradable (4 times? Can't remember) and actually had an impact on the gameplay. Which I am sure you'll deny somehow. Pointless.

 

One thing you can keep doing, though, is that constant applauding you do for yourself whenever you think you've "won" a geek argument.. "i've just brought down your blah blah" is such a sad remark. It saves me the time to try to make you look silly.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

As usual you start twisting and turning, like a rat in a trap.

 

Stop trying to make it seem others have to descend to your level. If you think that making it seem I was doing what you were doing instead is going to save you, be my guest, lets see how long that will last.

 

It's pointless having a discussion with you if you're going to leave out everything that makes (in this example) Deus Ex a RPG and focus on its faults.

 

If you ask for something, make calls on people's knowledge, than run back and say its pointless, you only prove who's pointless to argue with. I made a statement, you questioned the validity of what I said while distorting it, I answered in kind, exposing your poor attempt at sidetracking the conversation. If you call that "focusing on its faults" you're more delusional than I thought.

 

No, Deus Ex isn't a perfect game (which you've clearly pointed out, although it doesn't have anything to do with this discussion)

 

I pointed out what I was asked to point out in context. If that troubles you, thats not my problem.

 

but the game is, no matter how you try to convince people otherwise, in fact trying to be consistent AND have a world that reacts according to what you do.

 

This is getting desperate on your part. I would point out that Deus Ex, despite its faults, still manages to be one of my favourite games to this day; and I would also point out that you're quite powerless in convincing anyone here that I was trying to convince anyone at all of that which you said (specially because anyone with minimal perception skills will read and understand what i said, something you quite clearly couldn't) - but since you're intent in believing in the very crap you're spewing about, go ahead and revel in it. I'll just sit back and watch you sink in it.

 

Sure, it fails sometimes (just Like Fallout/Fallout 2 did sometimes) but the idea is there, clearly for everyone to see, unless you decide you want to look in another direction. Like you just did.

 

I went the direction that was being talked about. Y'know, the one you failed to understand, twisted to your little heart's contempt, and are now using as a completely pointless attempt at saving your own skin?

 

And then we have another word problem. What is it with you and words? Why is it that if something isn't called "Strength", but instead is called "Augmentation", and both does the exact same thing, you don't think it's a personal statistic?

 

When you understand what a statistic is, let me know.

 

Or did you choose to ignore the augmentations all together because they don't use generic RPG names?

 

No, I "choose to ignore them" because they're not the same. They have their own uses, but are outside elements. They aren't inate to the character. Skills and stats are; augmentations weren't. They still aren't statistics.

 

The augmentations gave you speed, stealth, strength,

 

True, true and true.

 

intelligence

 

Oh really? Which one was that? Do tell.

 

and whatever else you wanted,

 

I couldn't find that one either. Were you playing a mod? Or did you use the "IAMSPECIAL,WARREN!<3ME!" cheat code?

 

were upgradable (4 times? Can't remember) and actually had an impact on the gameplay.

 

4 times, though I think one - the Synthetic Heart - wasn't upgradable, or didn't had the same amount of upgrades.

 

Which I am sure you'll deny somehow.

 

Yes, the above proves your logic!

 

Pointless.

 

Not yet, but you're getting there.

 

One thing you can keep doing, though, is that constant applauding you do for yourself whenever you think you've "won" a geek argument..

 

Yes I'm sure there's ample proof of this around.

 

"i've just brought down your blah blah" is such a sad remark.

 

Sadder than you leaving a thread after having your arguments brought down? Sadder than you having to resort to distorting what others say instead of coming up with intelligent points that don't contain asinine and unfounded personal attacks? Or sadder than you failing to come up with any worthy point of view?

 

It saves me the time to try to make you look silly.

 

Actually your imbecility saved my time instead. Better to just point people to what you write instead of trying to explaining it myself.

[Darque]

Of course, its missing some of the more important things, like personal statistics, a world that reacts to what you do in a consistent manner, and a larger set of consequences to what you do.

So what? Deus Ex is a role playing game, you play the role of JC Denton, just like you play the nameless one in PS:T or jedi doofis in KotOR.

Or how you play a plumber in Super Mario Brothers or a Hyperkinetic Smiley in Pac Man.

 

I mean you're playing a role... right...

 

Dues Ex is a first person shooter. Period.

[roshan]

i like cut scenes. but in the modern day with all the fancy graphics that you can do witht he current engines there really sint any need for cut scenes anymore.

You can have cut scenes within the game's own engine. I thought KOTOR did this actually.

im not sure what you mean since i havent played kotor. but if youre talking about scenes like the ones in gta3 where they are in engine and not as movies, then thats what im talking about. with engines that can do that then theres no need for movies anymore.

Yes, I beleive that's what KOTOR does. "Cutscenes" using the game's engine. However, many of us don't like cutscenes even if they are in engine because they break the action and the game's feel.

so what alternative way of furthering the story can you suggest?

 

btw, cutscenes can also further the mood and involvement of the game if done right.

The story is furthered by the actions of the player. No cutscenes needed.

what about furthering the story through the actions of others using cutscenes?

 

and whatabout showing the results of the acitons of the player in cutscenes?

[mkreku]

Hey, Zante, since you think the discussion is on a low level, how about trying to raise it a bit? Or maybe you think that by accusing people of not understanding the most common things you make yourself look smarter and on a higher level? Trust me, my only problem in this low level discussion is that my vocabulary is a bit.. small. But I guess it's bigger than your swedish vocabulary, so let's stick to english. Anyhow, back on topic:

 

Since Zanteblah didn't bring up anything interesting/new in his reply, I won't bother quoting, but I guess what he is trying to say is: Deus Ex doesn't have personal statistics (where statistics has a secret meaning that only Zanteblah knows!!) despite the mention of both skills and augmentations..

 

All I basically need from a game to make it a RPG is character development, freedom of choice in gameplay, multiple solutions to every problem, a few missions/NPC's/equipment choices and branched dialogue trees and a chance to play the role I want to play. Deus Ex had all those (although the main character's name/role was always JC Denton) plus a semi-free game world (free to explore within the current level).

 

I've played through it as a pacifist, as a good hearted thief and as a mass murderer and each time I've gotten new (and different) responses/rewards/quests from NPC's. I've tried non violent approaches, sniper approaches and demolition approaches and the NPC's react differently to those too.

 

By the way, I just read something from the Deus Ex box:

 

"In this thrilling roleplaying adventure, you play the part of a powerful, nano-technologically augmented anti-terrorist agent."

 

"A richly simulated world of unparalleled interactivity, engineered to react logically to your every action."

 

"Character interaction that matters. Your interactions with scores of NPC's affect the outcome of the game, minute to minute, mission to mission, start to finish."

 

"The ability to create a compelling alter ego. Select and develop your own unique set of skills and nanotech augmentations; determine which weapons and objects you need to survive and solve problems. Will you be the deadly avenging angel, the charismatic master manipulator or the shrewd and stealthy tactician?"

 

Uhm.. So they exaggerated a little, but still.. It's all there. Ok, I am done. Should I put the word "Period." here to make my opinion look more important? Naah.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Or maybe you think that by accusing people of not understanding the most common things you make yourself look smarter and on a higher level?

 

Where is this accusation? You made it clear yourself that you didn't understand what a statistic is. I didn't had to accuse you of anything. Oh wait, this is part of the "I'm screwed, so let me try and twist what's being said to try and save face" routine, isn't it?

 

Since Zanteblah didn't bring up anything interesting/new in his reply, I won't bother quoting, but I guess what he is trying to say is: Deus Ex doesn't have personal statistics (where statistics has a secret meaning that only Zanteblah knows!!) despite the mention of both skills and augmentations..

Statistics don't have any hidden meaning, or a meaning I only know of. They are there to represent a characters' prowess in any given field. Any CRPG will need it to show how much success a character has in a situation. If you already understood that a statistic is numerical data, then you understand why its important. How do you determine what you can carry in a CRPG? Strength values. How do you determine how fast you can move? Dexterity or Speed values. How do you determine if you can convince NPCs? Statistics which handle things like Charisma. When you create a character in Fallout, why are you given the ability to tweak your statistics? Why do you think they are important? They determine character success and even skill success. Now go play Deus Ex. How do you know you can convince someone? You don't, you just click on a dialogue line and its done. Theres no importance given to your would-be role in this type of situation given a way to measure your ability is missing. How do you determine how much JC can carry? You don't. There's no statistic to determine how much he will be able to carry, because its all premade. How do you determine how fast the character can move? You don't, because there isn't a way to determine it, as its purely based on your own personal skill. If a character isn't being governed by his stats, and is instead being governed by you, then there's no character there, just an avatar or model that works just like any other avatar or model in any FPS. Why do you think almost every CRPG has statistical tracking and character output based on those statistics?

 

Back there you said I neglected skills (a lie, obviously), and augmentations (despite my explanation on why, which I'm sure must be easy for you to ignore). If you still didn't understand (which I'm inclined to think so) why I didn't count augs, its because they are outside a character, and are entirely different from statistics. If anything, augs are only bonuses and added "abilities" you tack onto your character. But they are imposed on the character, they aren't natural to him. Its like considering armor to be a statistic.

 

All I basically need from a game to make it a RPG is character development, freedom of choice in gameplay, multiple solutions to every problem, a few missions/NPC's/equipment choices and branched dialogue trees and a chance to play the role I want to play. Deus Ex had all those (although the main character's name/role was always JC Denton) plus a semi-free game world (free to explore within the current level).

 

And what you forgot to say is that most of it is very reduced, or in a scale that barely makes your role important. "Freedom of choice" is fine (even if no game gives actual freedom, and thats just a common buzzword), but if there are very few consequence to talk about, or very strict options, then its failing as an RPG. I already pointed out the weaknesses in those fields (you know, the laughable part where you considered it to be trying to convince others of the game's bad points?). Your role isn't being taken into account several times, you have no choice in regards to how the story goes, etc.

[Karzak]

Of course, its missing some of the more important things, like personal statistics, a world that reacts to what you do in a consistent manner, and a larger set of consequences to what you do.

So what? Deus Ex is a role playing game, you play the role of JC Denton, just like you play the nameless one in PS:T or jedi doofis in KotOR.

Or how you play a plumber in Super Mario Brothers or a Hyperkinetic Smiley in Pac Man.

 

I mean you're playing a role... right...

 

Dues Ex is a first person shooter. Period.

LOL, DE is more RPing than KotOR.

[Karzak]

LOL, posting an error in volume doesn't correct it, in DE you play a roll, having stats is secondary unless you are confusing rollplaying for roleplaying, which I guess you are.

 

Stats are secondary? What a joke. How do you determine a character's success in roleplaying? Not combat, not just focusing on stats to become uber, not "rollplaying", but roleplaying. Interaction. Dialogue. Options like intimidation, bluff, convincing, etc. If you think that stats are only there for "rollplaying", you are sorely mistaken. Without stats you can't determine if a character succeeds in "roleplaying" as well. How do you determine if you'll bluff someone without a stat to determine, say, charisma? That goes for either a fixed value, or a percentile value. Do tell.

 

Unless you're of the minset that simply choosing dialogue lines is roleplaying?

LOL, you think rolling a charisma check is role playing?

 

Again, it is clear that you confuse role playing with roll playing. If you ever did freeform stuff you would know the difference, but I am not going to try to explain the elephant to the blind man.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Again, it is clear that you confuse role playing with roll playing.

 

If that is your line of thought, so be it. If anything is clear here, is that you don't exactly know everything that goes into a roleplaying game.

[Sammael]

When stats are removed from the game, 99% of people (Karzak included, I am sure) play their Int 3, Cha 3 orc barbarians as if they were Int 20, Cha 20 elf wizards. Without stats, it is not f***ing possible to distinguish between two characters within the context of the rules. This is true in PnP, and is even more true in CRPGs.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Listen to Sammael, he is wise in the ways of CRPGs and common sense.

[Aegeri]

Of course, its missing some of the more important things, like personal statistics, a world that reacts to what you do in a consistent manner, and a larger set of consequences to what you do.

So what? Deus Ex is a role playing game, you play the role of JC Denton, just like you play the nameless one in PS:T or jedi doofis in KotOR.

Or how you play a plumber in Super Mario Brothers or a Hyperkinetic Smiley in Pac Man.

 

I mean you're playing a role... right...

 

Dues Ex is a first person shooter. Period.

LOL, DE is more RPing than KotOR.

Hmmmm maybe a little bit. Could you give some actual solid examples here though. I am aware that Deus Ex has more than a few decisions you can make that drastically affect the game, but Knights has more than a few of those themselves.

 

Both games have multiple endings, but immediately throw the significance of this out the window by allowing you to do any of them in the last couple of levels. You are not set into one end by your choices early enough in either game.

 

Sure Deus Ex does have more roleplaying than most games, but it is also a lot more limited in character and dialogue choices than the likes of Knights.