Deus ex Machina: the Will of The Force ...

[Xard]

"FORCE GOD"?

[Knights&Darths]

The Force has no will, just like God, it's no sentient being, yet that never stopped priests from inflicting dumb fear-based cults on the ignorant, it's because humans always were prone to blame some supernatural force for their problems and always wanted something to hold on to, for hope. Kreia is not just one of them though, I don't think she cares if it's true that the Force has a will, she just wants to stop the madness of the neverending bloodshed, one way or another. The Exile is no "Force God", she's just can't stray from what she truly is, not a Jedi nor a Sith, that's why Kreia loves her, because she doesn't allow herself to be affected by the Force.

[SilentScope001]

The Force has no will, just like God, it's no sentient being, yet that never stopped priests from inflicting dumb fear-based cults on the ignorant, it's because humans always were prone to blame some supernatural force for their problems and always wanted something to hold on to, for hope.

 

Get rid of your descirption of God however. This is a galaxy far far away. The rules of this world does not apply here.

 

Now, surely, we can say, "Ooh, the Force has no will" and I would agree with you...expect for the Force Pushing, Mind Contorl, Storm, etc. So, there is something supernatural, of course, the Force. And, we know little of it.

 

But what we do know in K2 make us imply the Force has a will. Other than Kreia's statements, the Jedi Council gives you all the reasons why The Exile is able to contorl others, via Force Bonds. For lack of a better word, I call it a Force God, but I can also term it having a Will of the Force. The Jedi Council spends years studying this stuff, so they should know. You also see Mira who kills after she joined her party...and how she does not like it. You can't say that has nothing to do with manlipuation, can you?

 

This is why Kreia talks about echoes here.

 

Now, there is a lot of evidence stating that The Exile has a lot of Force Bonds. There is no evidence the Force has a will other than Kreia's words (and she's crazy), altough we got proof The Exile does steal Force. The Force may not have a will, but The Exile can be considered a "Force God".

 

In the end, it all depends on...us. We ARE the Will of the Force, able to manlipuate the whole galaxy based on what WE want to think, since we contorl how we see the galaxy, and therefore the role of the Force. In your verison of Star Wars, the Force is just clay...in my verison, the Force is somewhat powerful...and dangerous tool

Edited February 1, 2007 by SilentScope001

[Knights&Darths]

Get rid of your descirption of God however. This is a galaxy far far away.

No, this is Obsidian boards. Kreia and the Force are born of earthling minds, so don't give me that "rules of this world does not apply here".

I call it a Force God, but I can also term it having a Will of the Force. The Jedi Council spends years studying this stuff, so they should know [

[SilentScope001]

No, this is Obsidian boards. Kreia and the Force are born of earthling minds, so don't give me that "rules of this world does not apply here".

Because it does not apply here. This is another universe, and you cannot basically claim, "Oh I know that the Force has a Will/Does not have a Will!" when you haven't seen the Force in action.

 

Star Wars is imagination and it orginates within the minds of Obisidan. So, ask the developers. And what if the devlopers say the Force has a will? Are you going to say, "Developers, I'm sorry, but you are WRONG!" Of course you can, because you have your own different view of Star Wars.

 

I'm sorry what are you talking about, the Exile just has a gift with bonding, that's got hardly anything to do with the nature of the Force.

 

One bond can force that person to follow you? Force that person to kill for you?

 

If a person has that much power because of a Force Bond, then it poses implications over how powerful The Force is. That Force Bond makes you quite powerful, able to dominate others. It is an insight into the connection of the Force.

 

I am aware of course that there are plenty of Jedi Masters, most Jedi actually, who believe that the Force not only has a will but that it is inherently good, bearing in the light side its true nature, but as I said, people may believe whatever fits them best, that can't hope to be anything of an undisputable truth though. There is no real evidence of the true nature of the Force, the fact that it seems to be a fate weaver doesn't necessarily imply that it has a will of its own, there are self-balancing systems in nature capable of affecting their inner universe of creatures, what's to stop the Force from being just one of them?

 

PROVE IT.

 

Yes, I will say it. You said a lot of Jedi Masters said that the Force has a will. Those Jedi Masters know more of the Force than you do. Why? They actually live in a world of floating lightsabers, they actually know about it. You must be quite arrogant to claim that you are smarter than a person that actually uses the Force!

 

All you offer is your own opinons, while I talk about evidence in the game.

 

1. Kreia screaming of how evil the Force IS. ("I wield it, but it uses us all...")

2. The Jedi Council talking of how powerful the Force Bonding is with you.

3. Mira killing people...when she does not want to kill people.

 

Contradict them if you wish, but you got no way of proving that you are right. Number 3 is the most interesting though, this is a person that hates killing and kills BECAUSE of the Force Bond that you share. It is the most compelling evidence we have here.

 

Why not try killing an innocent person? Then your LS followers start screaming on why you did such a thing, very sorry of the crime that they have done, and angry on WHY they did it. This is by far how one can manlipuate others through the Force, and if you can do it...surely it shows the power of The Force.

 

There is nothing, nothing at all, that says what you want to believe. And if it is indeed a self-balancing system, then isn't that the will of the Force?

---

But it does not matter, not anymore. I do not wish to engage in a stupid war over canon, and what is right and what is wrong. Canon, to me, is what you believe to be true. If you disagree with me, fine. Then be it. I want to get myself out of this discussion. Thank you.

[Darth Mortis]

Lets take an oil catastrophe as an example. Before it happens, nature is in balance, but once it happens, all balance is lost and animals and plants are destroyed. This is the balance Star Wars is about. In case of the movies, Anakin Skywalker brings the force back into balance by killing the Emperor, destroying the Sith and turning power back over to the lightside.

To be more accurate Anakin brings balance to force not just by destroying the Sith, but also by destroying the Jedi order. As you noted;

1) Balance between two things, equal to each other. This balance could be destroyed by one part getting weaker.

 

The same holds if one part becomes to strong. In the case of the force and light side verses dark-side, good verses evil, they require something to define them-namely each other. At the period of time shown before the clone wars the Jedi had, as far as they knew, eliminated the Sith. This led to them having nothing to measure themselves against. There are a number of instances where Jedi have done bad things fully beliving that they are good before the clone wars. In time the Jedi would have lost sight of what good and evil really were, leading them to become something far worse than any sith lord-namely a group of very powerful individuals who would be capable of doing anything and fully convinced that they were doing good.

 

All you offer is your own opinons, while I talk about evidence in the game.

 

1. Kreia screaming of how evil the Force IS. ("I wield it, but it uses us all...")

2. The Jedi Council talking of how powerful the Force Bonding is with you.

3. Mira killing people...when she does not want to kill people.

 

Contradict them if you wish, but you got no way of proving that you are right. Number 3 is the most interesting though, this is a person that hates killing and kills BECAUSE of the Force Bond that you share. It is the most compelling evidence we have here.

 

Why not try killing an innocent person? Then your LS followers start screaming on why you did such a thing, very sorry of the crime that they have done, and angry on WHY they did it. This is by far how one can manlipuate others through the Force, and if you can do it...surely it shows the power of The Force.

 

What strikes me as interesting is that the will of the force might be a side-effect of what it is. Yoda explains it as an energy field that passes though, surrounds and nurtures life. Kreia notes that echos can be left in it. Both lead me to wonder if the will of the force is really down to the force itself, or if it is a side effect of it passing through living beings and being in some cases altered by passing though living creatures. What is called the will of the force could in fact be the echos of all the living creatures that the force passes though.

 

This could explain the reason the force is divided into light and darksides-Lightside; creating life, nurturing it and living peacefully. Darkside; Control, power destroying perceved threats. In both cases these are basic drives that all living things have-to create life and live peacefully, while at the same time having the ability and drive to control whats around you and remove threats in order to survive.

 

It might also help explain why Anakin brough Balence to the force. If one side gets to powerful it would start to affect the way the force affects living things-even if they are not force sensitive. If the lightside gets to powerful them creatures may start to become less able to fight for their own survival and die out (And if the force is sustained by living creatures this is a bad thing). By the same measure if the dark side becomes to powerful creatures become to willing to fight, killing each other with the same end result-no life, no force.

 

If the force does have a will, that will would be related to life and keeping it alive. The best way to do this would be to keep a middle or grey area. The best way to keep life alive is for it to stay as peaceful as posible, while at the same time maintaining its willingness to fight when it has to. After all a lion that stops killing Wilderbeast on moral grounds would starve to death.

[Knights&Darths]

Canon, to me, is what you believe to be true. If you disagree with me, fine. Then be it. I want to get myself out of this discussion. Thank you.

Oops, look I didn't mean to bug you out of this discussion, sorry if I did. Still I must disagree, canon is not what you choose to believe.

you cannot basically claim, "Oh I know that the Force has a Will/Does not have a Will!"

I never did that, all I'm saying is that there's no real evidence, Jedi Masters don't know anything about the true nature of the Force, all they have is suppositions and most argued opinions dictated by their beliefs pratice and context.

Of course you can, because you have your own different view of Star Wars.

No, I couldn't, thing is there's still no canon source about the true nature of the Force.

One bond can force that person to follow you? Force that person to kill for you?

To bond with someone means their getting involved with you so you react to each other's feelings, a form of empathy if you will, strengthened by your ties to the Force. The Exile has a talent with bonding, and she's a natural leader so the connections she forms are strong ones, and her bonding got stronger as she isolated herserlf during her Exile, like someone who hasn't talked to anyone in years hungers to have people around.

PROVE IT.

Prove what? I'm just saying that's a possibility, and that Jedi have no proof of their own, so you shouldn't take for granted their notions of sentient Force.

if it is indeed a self-balancing system, then isn't that the will of the Force?

Not properly, only sentients bear a will of their own, a system works as it does for its nature has it that way, not some phantomatic will.

What strikes me as interesting is that the will of the force might be a side-effect of what it is [

[Dark Wastl]

To be more accurate Anakin brings balance to force not just by destroying the Sith, but also by destroying the Jedi order.

 

Actually, no. George Lucas has made it very clear that the destruction of he Sith, and only the Sith, is what brings balance to the force. The Jedi are still alive in the person of Luke Skywalker.

 

The force was in balance when the Sith were hiding and thought to be extinct. When the darkside had no power over the galaxy. And it returned to balance when the darkside lost control by the death of Palpatine and Vader.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Dark Wastl

[Knights&Darths]

And what kind of balance is that? That's just the triumph of the Jedi, yet maybe the difference lies in the construct of the new order, I mean first we have a light glitch then a dark glitch and finally balance to the Force.

[SilentScope001]

But GEORGE LUCAS says so!

 

It does not matter if it makes sense, that what your wookipedia article on "canon" states. Canon is whatever George Lucas says. So hear and obey!

 

...This is why I say you and I determine canon. Because sometimes, the EU makes stupid mistakes like declare "balance" to be "Kill off all Dark Side Users!11!!" without giving really good reasons. This is why it's up to you to create your own universe, and not up to George Lucas who'll canonically make Greedo shoot first.

 

If George Lucas is right however, we got ourselves another reason why Kreia hates the Force. Kreia hates all the Sith that are killed by The Force who seek balance, so she is taking revenge for the Sith.

[Knights&Darths]

But GEORGE LUCAS says so!

And I'm sure there's a reason, I was just trying to take a guess. As I said it probably has something to do with the new order.

This is why I say you and I determine canon

Star Wars canon was defined in Star Wars Insider, you'r entitled to have one of your own if you think that's not good enough, I'll hold on to it.

[hohum]

Just my two republic credits...

 

(Disclaimer: I haven

[Darth Mortis]

Well thought out, and well written. The only point that I can raise is about;

Darth Plagueis was apparently able to use the force to influence midi-chlorians to create life. Presumably, he used his midi-chlorians to manipulate the force to create life within the midi-chlorians of another individual.

The only source of this information is Palpatine, who was attempting to seduce Anakin at the time he said this and had every reason to lie if he could convince Anakin to join him. As such I'd be careful of assuming this is the truth, in fact I've always assumed this was a standard type of lie the Sith would tell. Tell a potential Sith that one of the old Sith Lords could use the DarkSide to gain some power they would find attractive, in Anakins case the ability to keep Padme alive.

[Knights&Darths]

It is possible that the use of the term,

[DarthVala]

If Plageuis "created" Anakin, that his mother would've said so. Lucas wouldn't leave something like that wide open. He was just simply conceived.

[Xard]

If Plageuis "created" Anakin, that his mother would've said so. Lucas wouldn't leave something like that wide open. He was just simply conceived.

 

No

 

He was created of/from Force. However, it's not clear whether creator was Palpatine or Plagueis

Edited February 9, 2007 by Xard

[DarthVala]

......Or an entirely new person altogether.

[SilentScope001]

Just my two republic credits...

 

Your two republic credits are worth a lot in my eyes. Good job, you presented a concise view on what the Will of the Force may actually be. I do think The Force as something that really is sentient, but you make a good point that the Force may not actually be it, and since I believe the Force is senitent, but has no quotes or anything for that matter...oh well.

 

Thanks for typing!

 

EDIT: Just two quick things however:

 

1. Er...what if people disagree in the concept of mido-chlorians?

 

2. Do people in the past actually know about mido-chlorians? I doubt Kreia does...but maybe they do. Eh. Does it matter? Guess not, because Kreia would proberly suss out what to do anyway.

Edited February 10, 2007 by SilentScope001

[DarthVala]

Of course they know about midi-chlorians. They are the foundation of the force, they know about midi-chlorians if they like it or not. Does that mean they have to study, analyze, compare, or monitor them? Not necessarily. Besides, Lucas will decide.

[WhiteRaven]

midichlorians? thanks a LOT for reminding me of that absurdity. George Lucas needs a kick in the nads for that explanation, "a buncha bacteria created an energy of limitless power" that makes perfect sense. oh well, maybe that was his son's idea...

 

"If Plageuis "created" Anakin, that his mother would've said so. Lucas wouldn't leave something like that wide open. He was just simply conceived."

 

Anakin's mother stated in episode 1 that he had no father, so no he was not conceived. I read somewhere that sidious was plaguis' apprentice.

 

speaking of Anakin, there is one thing that escapes me, he turned to the dark side to save Padme, but he was the one who killed her... confusion alert!!! so in order to save padme he becomes a sith lord, so that he can study things the Jedi wouldn't allow, like creating life and such, then he ruins that explanation, by killing the reason he turned to the dark side, then he almost dies, and instead of turning his vengeance towards sideous, who caused him to turn on his love, he tries to kill the Jedi and take over the galaxy, stupid, he should have killed sideous first, and THEN killed the Jedi and took over the galaxy.

 

"0h bt h3 dnt hv nuff pwr 2 kl Si-D-us thn."

 

oh, but when he only had one hand left and was almost dead it wasn't any problem?

[Purgatorio]

"If Plageuis "created" Anakin, that his mother would've said so. Lucas wouldn't leave something like that wide open. He was just simply conceived."

 

Anakin's mother stated in episode 1 that he had no father, so no he was not conceived. I read somewhere that sidious was plaguis' apprentice.

Just because she said "he had no father" doesn't mean he was a virgin birth or created through some Sith Alchemy. Perhaps she meant it as; do not speak of him because he was bad or whatever. She was a slave wasn't she? *shrugs*= Don't care, because the prequels are crap.

 

speaking of Anakin, there is one thing that escapes me, he turned to the dark side to save Padme, but he was the one who killed her... confusion alert!!! so in order to save padme he becomes a sith lord, so that he can study things the Jedi wouldn't allow, like creating life and such, then he ruins that explanation, by killing the reason he turned to the dark side, then he almost dies, and instead of turning his vengeance towards sideous, who caused him to turn on his love, he tries to kill the Jedi and take over the galaxy, stupid, he should have killed sideous first, and THEN killed the Jedi and took over the galaxy.

 

oh, but when he only had one hand left and was almost dead it wasn't any problem?

But the rebuilding of Vader at the end was using cybernetics, not that power mentioned earlier. Or am I miss reading that? Anyway it's not meant to make sense it adds to the "tragedy of his fall" :crazy:

Edited February 10, 2007 by Purgatorio

[hohum]

I must admit that the whole midi-chlorian issue does leave a somewhat bitter taste in my mouth. In my very humble opinion it does diminish the spiritual nature of the Jedi knowing that a great Jedi may be judged on the sum of their midi-chlorians. On the other hand, the scientific rationale does lend some 'reality' (and I use the term loosely) to the nature of the Force. Whether or not it was necessary for Mr Lucas to even raise the issue of these midi-chlorians is another interesting debate.

 

Regarding Anakin Skywalker, the catalyst for his creation may have been Darth Plagueis, Darth Sidious or even the Force itself (not that this would mean the Force is sentient, but the 'vergence' Qui Gon speaks of may be a naturally occurring phenomena of the Force). Whatever the cause, we know that Anakin was created by the Force.

 

I do not think that we can disagree over the existence of midi-chlorians. The films clearly state that these organisms exist and briefly describe their relationship with the force. Denying their existence in the Star Wars universe would be like denying the existence of lightsabres.

 

That is a good point about whether or not Kreia would have knowledge of midi-chlorians. An argument could be made that she would considering the relative similarities between the technology of the movies and the KOTOR series. Although their is a vast time difference between the setting of the two, technology has not evolved (at least on the surface) that much. Artificial intelligence seems to exist, lightsabres operate on the same principles, space flight seems the same, and blasters operate on the same dynamics. One could therefore argue that medical science would be developed enough to discover the existence of midi-chlorians. This is of course all conjecture.

[WhiteRaven]

"Just because she said "he had no father" doesn't mean he was a virgin birth or created through some Sith Alchemy. Perhaps she meant it as; do not speak of him because he was bad or whatever. She was a slave wasn't she? *shrugs*= Don't care, because the prequels are crap."

 

no, it was like...

 

jedi: who is his father?

 

Anakin's mom: uh... no one... I know it seems impossible, but I just got pregnant one day and nine months later he crawled out of me...

 

... okay so maybe it wasn't EXACTLY like that. the point is that she didn't think he had a father, so unless she was drugged... or ...um... force-sleepified... or she was telling a big fat lie, Anakin had no father. of course a jedi would have been able to tell if she was lying.

 

"On the other hand, the scientific rationale does lend some 'reality' (and I use the term loosely) to the nature of the Force."

 

what scientific rationale?! a monocellular organism responsible for limitless power?! ridiculous!!

 

 

"But the rebuilding of Vader at the end was using cybernetics, not that power mentioned earlier. Or am I miss reading that? Anyway it's not meant to make sense it adds to the "tragedy of his fall" "

 

you are miss reading it. I was speaking of him turning to the dark side to save the woman he loved, then eliminating that reason as a possibility by killing her. or in play format:

 

Anakin: ROAR!! I will now render this explanation stupid by killing the woman I turned to the dark side in order to save!

[hohum]

Scientific rationale in as far as the fact that the Force is not merely an abstract metaphysical energy that manifests itself through spiritual belief, but has a foundation in Star Wars science and biology. The great thing about science fiction is that a monocellular organism is capable of harnessing limitless power.

 

For me, Anakin Skywalker's knee jerk reaction to force strangle Padme merely demonstrates the true nature of the dark side of the force. The dark side doesnt merely taint an individual but it corrupts completely. His misguided impatience that led him to even consider that the dark side offered him the opportunity to save Padme out of love was his downfall. I beleive he truly thought he could harness the power of the darkside without it changing him at his core. Although he may have truly loved Padme, this love could not stand against the ferocity of his anger when he believed she had betrayed her.

[random evil guy]

i look at the force as a close relative of the concept of 'karma'.