Deus ex Machina: the Will of The Force ...

[The Great Phantom]

As much as I believe it is high time for this thread to be buried, I found an interesting part in an old YA Fantasy book I was re-reading... I think it fits the Force, if you modify it a bit (which I will do, with the modifications surrounded by <>'s):

 

"<There> are <people>-all of them- <that are> capable of great cruelty, but they are not, even in the very worst of cases, the true embodiment of evil. No, that title belongs to others... (It goes on for about a paragraph talking about Demons and Devils, which I will equate to the Dark Side).

 

I have wondered if <the Dark Side> could exist without the darkness that lies within the hearts of the reasoning races. <Is it> a source of evil, as are many wicked men..., or <is it> the result, a physical manifestation of the rot that permeates the hearts of far too many?

 

The latter, I believe..."

 

A cookie to anybody that can (correctly) tell me what the title of that book is!

[FortranDragon]

yes more like a healthy skepticism .. like I said two posts ago "my main grief with regular sience is that it sets object as the ultimate truth .. which in my mind cancels out alot of human ideas .."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Science isn't trying to find the Ultimate Truth. Science As Path To Ultimate Truth seems more of Marxist/Leninist gross-rationalizing corruption of science if I remember my history correctly. Scientists attempt to use science to understand the workings of the physical world, not necessarily everything. Morality, religion, creativity, values, etc. aren't an area of science. While science may give us a better understanding of our physical nature (for example, certain brain injuries leading to sociopathic tendencies), science itself knows its limits.

[Rosbjerg]

Science isn't trying to find the Ultimate Truth.  Science As Path To Ultimate Truth seems more of  Marxist/Leninist gross-rationalizing corruption of science  if I remember my history correctly.  Scientists attempt to use science to understand the workings of the physical world, not necessarily everything.  Morality, religion, creativity, values, etc. aren't an area of science.  While science may give us a better understanding of our physical nature (for example, certain brain injuries leading to sociopathic tendencies), science itself knows its limits.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

yet people always seem to apply the rules of Science on everyting in our world .. God does not exist, there is no proof! where's the scientific data? There is no meaning of life! we have no free will, since everything behaves according to ceartin rules we can't escape (no need to quote Quantum Physics/Mechanics, I've read it, but people use this argument alot) ..

 

we trap ourselves in logic boxes, killing some creative thoughts and human values .. and that's where I say no ..

[213374U]

God does not exist, there is no proof! where's the scientific data?

Well, atheism is just another creed to me. The sentence I quoted is as much a dogma as the immortality of the spirit. People who wield a dogma as a counter to another dogma always bring up a chuckle with me.

 

 

we trap ourselves in logic boxes, killing some creative thoughts and human values .. and that's where I say no ..

Indeed. People who claim to use logic to explain things that logic was never meant to explain strike me as either extremely arrogant, or extremely narrowminded. I don't know what's worse.

 

However, I don't like the idea of "anything goes" very much, either. I choose to think that science is enough to explain the limited parcel of reality that we perceive (even if it's not as we perceive it), and then some.

[Rosbjerg]

God does not exist, there is no proof! where's the scientific data?

Well, atheism is just another creed to me. The sentence I quoted is as much a dogma as the immortality of the spirit. People who wield a dogma as a counter to another dogma always bring up a chuckle with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well that's how it usually works .. most people need system to work out a choerent world view, it's bloody tiresome to rebuild everything from the ground! And I don't have anything against anyone who believes in a system, as long as they recognize that their's is not the only "thruth" .. and that such a thing is subjective! (which is imposing my views on others .. well I guess we all have double standards! )

 

we trap ourselves in logic boxes, killing some creative thoughts and human values .. and that's where I say no ..

Indeed. People who claim to use logic to explain things that logic was never meant to explain strike me as either extremely arrogant, or extremely narrowminded. I don't know what's worse.

 

However, I don't like the idea of "anything goes" very much, either. I choose to think that science is enough to explain the limited parcel of reality that we perceive (even if it's not as we perceive it), and then some.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well I'm not going for a "anything goes" kinda perspective either .. I just found science and logic inadequate to explain reality properly! so I went looking elsewhere..

[Grooby]

The Force is based on what George Lucas believes about good and evil, not Christianity, even though his view may have been based on his own vague understanding of the pseudo-christian values he grew up with.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thank you, I was wondering when somebody was going to mention that. While the philisophical discussion is fascinating, let us not forget that George Lucas created "The Force" much like L. Ron Hubbard created "Scientology" (may his eyes be eaten by small rodents..Hubbards not Lucas.) As I recall George was reading a great deal of Joseph Campbell and Jung at the time he wrote Star Wars.

 

Having said that, it seems to me that The Force is some kind of collective consciousness that is neither inherently good or bad. You as an individual can attempt to choose a side but with the understanding that one cannot exist without the other and any victory (Light over Dark) is only a temporary shift. And I think as an individual it would be impossible to see the whole picture and know for sure which side you were actually playing for. For example when Kriea points out that giving that Refugee credits actually set him up for a good pounding. I think the best we can do is simply....the best we can. For as a wise old woman once said

 

 

 

"APATHY IS DEATH"

[The Great Phantom]

Do you have ANY clue how often I have repeated that in the nearing-twenty pages of this thread???

 

:ph34r:

[Grooby]

Do you have ANY idea how long it takes to read the 20 pages of this thread?

 

 

If I repeated your comment I apologize. I try to read threads from first to last before I post but sometimes I miss some.

 

Shall I consult you before posting?

[metadigital]

Do you have ANY clue how often I have repeated that in the nearing-twenty pages of this thread???

:ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did anyone hear something? "

Science isn't trying to find the Ultimate Truth.  Science As Path To Ultimate Truth seems more of  Marxist/Leninist gross-rationalizing corruption of science  if I remember my history correctly.  Scientists attempt to use science to understand the workings of the physical world, not necessarily everything.  Morality, religion, creativity, values, etc. aren't an area of science.  While science may give us a better understanding of our physical nature (for example, certain brain injuries leading to sociopathic tendencies), science itself knows its limits.

God does not exist, there is no proof! where's the scientific data?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Occham's Razor is a formalised method for dismissing logical falacies, e.g. the Watchmanker's Father. It doesn't just say there is no proof (which there cannot be, unless we find a babel fish); it says a god is not necessary, and superfluous, for that explanation. Stress on the need to find a better argument, not more proof.

It's more a logical flaw, than a lack of data.

God does not exist, there is no proof! where's the scientific data?

Well, atheism is just another creed to me. The sentence I quoted is as much a dogma as the immortality of the spirit. People who wield a dogma as a counter to another dogma always bring up a chuckle with me.

Yes I tend to agree, although it can also be a lot more serious than that, as well. Fundamentalists, I believe ( " ) are actually a form of evil. I am quite a libertarian, I've noticed, but I hate those who would stiffle opinion with dogma. Those people who think they have all the answers -- or, at least, all the answers that we are allowed to have. Democracy specfically, and human culture in general, needs to cross-polenate ideas to remain sanguine. (Probably why the established Churches produce splinter groups after years of doctrinal orthodoxy.)

"Freedom of speech and freedom of action are meaningless without freedom to think. And there is no freedom of thought without doubt."

-Bergen Evans

we trap ourselves in logic boxes, killing some creative thoughts and human values .. and that's where I say no ..

Indeed. People who claim to use logic to explain things that logic was never meant to explain strike me as either extremely arrogant, or extremely narrowminded. I don't know what's worse.

Narrowminded, definitely: arrogance can be countered.

However, I don't like the idea of "anything goes" very much, either. I choose to think that science is enough to explain the limited parcel of reality that we perceive (even if it's not as we perceive it), and then some. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can't argue with that. "Anything goes" just leaves us back where we started, the first question of any philosophy is where do we begin?; what do we accept as "given"?

 

I think that once we can explain the "mechanism" we call reality (with science), then we will be in a far better place to guess at the other unseen elements (metaphysics).

 

I caught the cover of a New Science weekly the other day, they were heralding the re-popularising of the Victorian theory of ether (not the gas that was used for anaesthetic; the solution that contained the universe that gave its name to "Ethernet") ... might that not be equated on some level to The Force? :cool:

[metadigital]

The Force is based on what George Lucas believes about good and evil, not Christianity, even though his view may have been based on his own vague understanding of the pseudo-christian values he grew up with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you, I was wondering when somebody was going to mention that. While the philisophical discussion is fascinating, let us not forget that George Lucas created "The Force" much like L. Ron Hubbard created "Scientology" (may his eyes be eaten by small rodents..Hubbards not Lucas.) As I recall George was reading a great deal of Joseph Campbell and Jung at the time he wrote Star Wars.

 

Having said that, it seems to me that The Force is some kind of collective consciousness that is neither inherently good or bad. You as an individual can attempt to choose a side but with the understanding that one cannot exist without the other and any victory (Light over Dark) is only a temporary shift. And I think as an individual it would be impossible to see the whole picture and know for sure which side you were actually playing for. For example when Kriea points out that giving that Refugee credits actually set him up for a good pounding. I think the best we can do is simply....the best we can. For as a wise old woman once said

 

 

"APATHY IS DEATH"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't aware of GL's reading of Jung, although I can certainly see evidence of it.

 

I think it has become quite apparent that musing on the ACTUAL quidity of The Force is futile in the extreme; not simply because of its ineffableness, but because GL has eclectically borrowed bits of pop-philosophy in a very expedient manner, to satisfy immediate plot requirements.

 

So instead of a trail of evidence to lead us to the higher consciousness of The Force, we have truisms scattered about SW to emphasise a particular point that GL is making at the time. I think that makes for a very one-dimensional philosophy, personally.

 

But still, reagardless of our (traditional SW Force) belief, there is more to the Universe than is dreamed of in GL's philosophy (apologies to W. Shakespeare and all his audiences).

 

So therefore I say unto you, it is entirely possible that Kreia is The Prophet, The One who will counter to autocratic predestination we know as the benevolent Force.

 

Join the counter-Force; shake off your bonds and become free! Decide your own destiny! And even if that destiny is a premature death, live well -- confident that your death was as free as your life, and not some small contrivance in the plan of some meaningless greater opera. :D :cool:

 

PS I second the motion that L Ron Hubbard's eyes be eaten by small rodents, adding that they should be diseased rodents. (I'm not sure if he was cremated, though.) Stupid gnostic beliefs. Thetans, hah! Stupid midichlorians.

[FaramirK]

Well folks, I'm back. And if only to annoy Metadigital, I'll say right now that I do NOT have time to read the entire threaad, fascinating as it may be.

 

I beg your pardons in advance if this argument has already been stated.

 

Just stopped by to say that I watched Episode IV last night, and there is a scene on board the Millenium Falcon (Great name for a ship. btw, totally off topic, why was the Ebon Hawk not black?) where Luke is practising his blaster deflection against a remote. As Obi-Wan advises Luke, Han is skeptical, and says something to the effect of "Kid, I've been from one end of the galaxy to the other, and I've seen alot of crazy things, but never anything to convince me that there is an all-powerful force controlling everything."

 

Han clearly stated that The Force has no will. However, he was a skeptic and he didn't really know much about The Force anyway, so its hard to say if he was right or wrong. He sounds as if he is arguing against a commonly held belief, like I could say exactly what he said, but end "...convince me that there is an all-powerful God controlling everything." - My statement suggests that what I am saying is NOT true is held to BE true by others.

 

I think, on having recently rewatched the OT, that GL always intended The Force to have some kind of conciousness or will. I withdraw my earlier argument that The Force was originally only meant to be a latent energy that could be accessed by anyone. Deus ex Machina is sounding more likely...and while I disagree with Metadigital's dubious theological conclusions regarding the sola scriptura, I think I was wrong about The Force being simply a resource, without a "will". Blame my past dabblings in Atheistic Materialism for my eagerness to deny the possibility.

[The Great Phantom]

Do you have ANY idea how long it takes to read the 20 pages of this thread?

 

 

If I repeated your comment I apologize. I try to read threads from first to last before I post but sometimes I miss some.

 

Shall I consult you before posting?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That would be fine, thanks.

 

I was just stating it, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

[The Great Phantom]

As much as I believe it is high time for this thread to be buried, I found an interesting part in an old YA Fantasy book I was re-reading... I think it fits the Force, if you modify it a bit (which I will do, with the modifications surrounded by <>'s):

 

"<There> are <people>-all of them- <that are> capable of great cruelty, but they are not, even in the very worst of cases, the true embodiment of evil. No, that title belongs to others..." (It goes on for about a paragraph talking about Demons and Devils, which I will equate to the Dark Side).

 

I have wondered if <the Dark Side> could exist without the darkness that lies within the hearts of the reasoning races. <Is it> a source of evil, as are many wicked men..., or <is it> the result, a physical manifestation of the rot that permeates the hearts of far too many?

 

The latter, I believe..."

 

A cookie to anybody that can (correctly) tell me what the title of that book is!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Keeping this post up in case somebody missed it. :lol:

[FaramirK]

or <is it> the result, a physical manifestation of the rot that permeates the hearts of far too many?

 

Nay, All hearts are rotten with it...

 

Thats what I remember thinking...I can't for the life of me remember the title of the book! Curses! :">

[The Great Phantom]

or <is it> the result, a physical manifestation of the rot that permeates the hearts of far too many?

 

Nay, All hearts are rotten with it...

 

Thats what I remember thinking...I can't for the life of me remember the title of the book! Curses! :">

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I checked the book just now, and I typed it correctly. It was talking about the wicked, not the obvious evil in everybody...

[metadigital]

Well folks, I'm back.  And if only to annoy Metadigital, I'll say right now that I do NOT have time to read the entire threaad, fascinating as it may be.

 

I beg your pardons in advance if this argument has already been stated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Welcome back.

What do you mean you haven't got time? Go back and read the thread in its entirety, then write it out ten times as punishment.

... Just stopped by to say that I watched Episode IV last night, and there is a scene on board the Millenium Falcon (Great name for a ship.  btw, totally off topic, why was the Ebon Hawk not black?) where Luke is practising his blaster deflection against a remote.  As Obi-Wan advises Luke, Han is skeptical, and says something to the effect of "Kid, I've been from one end of the galaxy to the other, and I've seen alot of crazy things, but never anything to convince me that there is an all-powerful force controlling everything."

 

Han clearly stated that The Force has no will.  However, he was a skeptic and he didn't really know much about The Force anyway, so its hard to say if he was right or wrong.  He sounds as if he is arguing against a commonly held belief, like I could say exactly what he said, but end "...convince me that there is an all-powerful God controlling everything." - My statement suggests that what I am saying is NOT true is held to BE true by others. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not clear whether Solo is being skeptical about the Force per se, the will of the Force, or anything further than cause-and-effect in a physical universe (eschewing all forms of metaphysics, including small "f" force and determinism).

... I think, on having recently rewatched the OT, that GL always intended The Force to have some kind of conciousness or will.  I withdraw my earlier argument that The Force was originally only meant to be a latent energy that could be accessed by anyone.  Deus ex Machina is sounding more likely...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would have been enlightening to have Solo make his revised philosophy clear, after seeing the miraculous handiwork of the Skywalker family. (Certainly he seems to be somewhat along the road to belief in something by the end of the OT.) Oi vey.

Still, your evidence (and consequential tenuous hypothesis that many of the inhabitants of SW believe that the Force has a will) is about as strong as any other we have to go on. Certainly, too, Obi-Wan Kenobi's philosphical explanation doesn't include seperate good and evil Forces, so dualism seems to be out. (Although Mr Kenobi has a history of "subjective recollection" of the truth, shall we say.)

 

... And while I disagree with Metadigital's dubious theological conclusions regarding the sola scriptura, I think I was wrong about The Force being simply a resource, without a "will".  Blame my past dabblings in Atheistic Materialism for my eagerness to deny the possibility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whatever gets you up in the morning and through the day.

(Digression: I was trying to find the JS Mill quote about rights and nose, and I found a similar one attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes: "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.".)

 

And, just for you, FarimirK

"Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly."

-Isaac Asimov

 

PS Maybe an Ebon Hawk is a type of Hawk, not necessarily just the colour of the ship. You might like to base a ship on the Western Australian Black Swan, rather than the Canada Goose (shouldn't that be Canadian Goose?). So it could have been called the "Gun-metal-grey Chicken Hawk", but that doesn't have the same ring to it. :D

[metadigital]

or <is it> the result, a physical manifestation of the rot that permeates the hearts of far too many?

 

Nay, All hearts are rotten with it...

 

Thats what I remember thinking...I can't for the life of me remember the title of the book! Curses! :">

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I checked the book just now, and I typed it correctly. It was talking about the wicked, not the obvious evil in everybody...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's FarimirK inculcating his theology again. "

Maybe FarimirK deserves a glass of milk and some crumbs, then, for reading it before ...? :D

[FaramirK]

Whatever gets you up in the morning and through the day.

(Digression: I was trying to find the JS Mill quote about rights and nose, and I found a similar one attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes:

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.".)

 

An excellent Quote. One that desparately needs to be translated into Russian Language and Thinking.

 

Just for you, FarimirK 

"Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly."

-Isaac Asimov

 

Well, the Bible claims to be the patient findings of an omniscient God, so the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written really don't amount to much in comparison.

 

As with most athiests, Asimov imagines that Christians are forcing their dogma down everyones throat. I can't ever remember a "Christian Authority" forcing their feeble and childish beliefs on me, or invading my school, library and home. I do however, remember the Communists doing it regulary in the Soviet years. And I personally resent that bitterly.

 

If that's a little angry for your taste, how about this:

"Freedom of speech and freedom of action are meaningless without freedom to think. And there is no freedom of thought without doubt."

-Bergen Evans

 

I agree whole-heartedly. Everyone should have the right to believe what ever they want. But you probably never lived in a place where there was no freedom to think against or doubt the social norm, have you?

 

PS Maybe an Ebon Hawk is a type of Hawk, not necessarily just the colour of the ship. So it could have been called the "Gun-metal-grey Chicken Hawk", but that doesn't have the same ring to it. :D

 

[metadigital]

Whatever gets you up in the morning and through the day.

(Digression: I was trying to find the JS Mill quote about rights and nose, and I found a similar one attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes:

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.".)

 

An excellent Quote. One that desparately needs to be translated into Russian Language and Thinking.

I suppose that was what Alexander Solzenitzen was trying to do.

 

Just for you, FarimirK 

"Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly."

-Isaac Asimov

 

Well, the Bible claims to be the patient findings of an omniscient God, so the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written really don't amount to much in comparison.

 

As with most athiests, Asimov imagines that Christians are forcing their dogma down everyones throat. I can't ever remember a "Christian Authority" forcing their feeble and childish beliefs on me, or invading my school, library and home. I do however, remember the Communists doing it regulary in the Soviet years. And I personally resent that bitterly.

Here here. I can only imagine that sort of indoctrination; I have been fortunate enough in the lottery of life to be born into a free country. (Asimov was jewish, though I guess he was referring to Christianity when he speaks of the Bible.)

If that's a little angry for your taste, how about this:

"Freedom of speech and freedom of action are meaningless without freedom to think. And there is no freedom of thought without doubt."

-Bergen Evans

I agree whole-heartedly. Everyone should have the right to believe what ever they want. But you probably never lived in a place where there was no freedom to think against or doubt the social norm, have you?

Touch

[FaramirK]

or <is it> the result, a physical manifestation of the rot that permeates the hearts of far too many?

 

Nay, All hearts are rotten with it...

 

Thats what I remember thinking...I can't for the life of me remember the title of the book! Curses! :">

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I checked the book just now, and I typed it correctly. It was talking about the wicked, not the obvious evil in everybody...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wasn't saying you didn't, I was remembering what I thought when I read it.

[FaramirK]

Here here. I can only imagine that sort of indoctrination; I have been fortunate enough in the lottery of life to be born into a free country.

 

And, it would be prudent to mention that history also records Christians doing the sort of things Asimov mentions, such as Calvin in Switzerland, and the Catholics just about everywhere until recently. "

 

I was merely stating that the pot seemed to be calling the kettle black.

 

if you peruse some of the legislation that has been proposed and introduced in some of the "liberal" democracies you will see that this is so.

 

My parents now live in the UK, which I would classify as a "Liberal Democracy". It is strange how it is so different from the US, when they have so much in common. I don't see a "Religious Right" screaming against Gay Marriage, or Communists burning Bibles, and yet both groups can be found there. I am even told that all religions are taught in public school classes, as well as evolution. Seems like a very free society indeed.

 

Maybe it is simply a case of the average American diet containing too much sugar...

 

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding."

-Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis

 

While I hold to a "Literal" Belief of the Bible in regards to the soul, I would rather live in a secular state that protects everyones freedom of belief than the would be-Theocracy some Americans apparently "pray" for. Such things end in Despotism.

[The Great Phantom]

or <is it> the result, a physical manifestation of the rot that permeates the hearts of far too many?

 

Nay, All hearts are rotten with it...

 

Thats what I remember thinking...I can't for the life of me remember the title of the book! Curses! :">

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I checked the book just now, and I typed it correctly. It was talking about the wicked, not the obvious evil in everybody...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wasn't saying you didn't, I was remembering what I thought when I read it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, I just misread it.

 

Who was the main character? Name one of them, and I'll throw you the dough, and a match.

[FaramirK]

Hmm, back when I first started learning english...demons...evil...

 

Screwtape Letters?

[Influence]

The Force is fate. The Will of the Force is not like the will of a person. It is used as an analogy for fate for destiny. Saying the force has a will is merely a personification of saying that the force is fate, it is the course of human events; it does not DETERMINE destiny, it simply IS destiny.

 

The force is not good nor evil, it is equilibrium and the path of equilibrium, Anakin killed the Jedi COuncil and brought balance back to the force, Im sure most of you know why I say that. The force did not force him to do so, he simply walked down that path his choices brought him down that path. His choices made his path his coices MADE the Forces "will". That path was the path of the force it was teh will of the force. Which is why the force is tied to to life and life tied to teh force. Its very complex and is the old chicken or the egg principle.

 

The force cannot die because as long as life exists in the universe and humans will be able to walk down a path, the force will exist becasue the force is that path. That is why teh force is so bonded to life because it is 100% derived from life.

 

It is symbiotic we need the force to walk our path in life, the force is a path that woudl not exist if there was nothign to wlak down it. DO you understand?

 

The force exists as long as life does. Many people, like Kreia and Neo, hate the idea that fate adn destiny control our lives but that is because they do not truelly grasp the concept of fate and destiny and teh force i guess. It does not control it is nto a patht that is forced upon you, it is somethign that is created through ur choices but at teh same time has alwasy existed.

 

I know it is a very difficult thing to understand, im still trying to.

[The Great Phantom]

Hmm, back when I first started learning english...demons...evil...

 

Screwtape Letters?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Close enough. Here's the match, now try to find your way out of the wet cave.

 

Come to me w/ a description of the character(s). I'll settle for that.