PS Torment and endings...

[alx1078]

I've read through many posts in these forums and practically everyone seems to be praising PS Torment and hailing it as the best crpg, and at the same time diss games with abrupt or/and crappy endings.

 

Don't get me wrong PS Torment is indeed one of the best games out there and certainly among the top 3 crpgs of all time but the fact remains that its ending sucked!!!

The whole thing started going downhill since you entered the final stronghold, with sloppy storytelling and leaps in logic, and after you beat ... the final opponent... it's just a 10 second video and that's it. For a game to be considered the best crpg it has to be consistent from start to finish, and Torment while amazing almost throughout, hobbled for the last couple of meters.

 

BG Throne of Bhaal on the other hand which is just labeled as "good" by most, is the most consistent and balanced game out there (granted that the final revelation of your true enemy in Throne of Bhaal is not THAT exciting) from beginning to end. It leaves you feeling that indeed you just completed this epic adventure/journey (along with your friends- the most important aspect of the BG series), and most of all it leaves you with a sense of CLOSURE, something lacking by PS Torment and indeed most other games out there incl. KOTOR and especially KOTOR II.

[Spider]

Play Torment with a high Int/Wis/Cha character and you'll get a much bigger sense of closure.

 

At least I felt that way when I actually got to say good bye to my companions on my third play through.

 

Then again, I thought the ending was great the first two times as well. I thought the fortress was great and very climactic. Torment did have it's weak parts but that wasn't it.

 

As for Throne of Bhaal, I did like that as well, but not so much for the story-telling. ToB had a very predictable plot and nothing in it really stood out. But ToB wasn't so much about that as it was about getting to play with high level rules. And that it did well.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

I've read through many posts in these forums and practically everyone seems to be praising PS Torment and hailing it as the best crpg, and at the same time diss games with abrupt or/and crappy endings.

 

Don't get me wrong PS Torment is indeed one of the best games out there and certainly among the top 3 crpgs of all time but the fact remains that its ending sucked!!!

The whole thing started going downhill since you entered the final stronghold, with sloppy storytelling and leaps in logic, and after you beat ... the final opponent... it's just a 10 second video and that's it. For a game to be considered the best crpg it has to be consistent from start to finish, and Torment while amazing almost throughout, hobbled for the last couple of meters.

 

BG Throne of Bhaal on the other hand which is just labeled as "good" by most, is the most consistent and balanced game out there (granted that the final revelation of your true enemy in Throne of Bhaal is not THAT exciting) from beginning to end. It leaves you feeling that indeed you just completed this epic adventure/journey (along with your friends- the most important aspect of the BG series), and most of all it leaves you with a sense of CLOSURE, something lacking by PS Torment and indeed most other games out there incl. KOTOR and especially KOTOR II.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

...yer kiddin', right???...PS:T had one o' the best endings (well, multiple endings actually) o' any cRPG in recent memory... an' Torment definitely didna lack closure; either ya ended up a complete person in the Hells or ya ceased ta exist; either way ya got lots o' closure...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[alx1078]

Ok now i'm confused....

 

I didn't want to say anything specific as i'm not sure what the spoiler policy is for other games but here goes.

 

Inside the fortress the story suddenly sped up! And when i reached the final battle, after i beat myself, i had literaly a couple of lines with each member of my party, and i'm back to the demon wars!

 

Now as i played through it only once i'm not sure if i missed anything else.

 

As for Throne of Bhaal, I did like that as well, but not so much for the story-telling. ToB had a very predictable plot and nothing in it really stood out. But ToB wasn't so much about that as it was about getting to play with high level rules. And that it did well.

 

ToB was an epic story. It has of course an unfair advantage being a trilogy, but the whole story was very nicely done and extremely satisfying. And i believe you are wrong, meaning, the story may have been pretty straightforward as a whole, but the story-telling was amazing. you felt as if everything you did tied to a greater picture, which started way back in BG I and culminated with the conclusion of the story of the God of Murder. That coupled with the excellent supporting cast and the interaction with them, is what made BG the most satisfying series i've ever played. :cool:

 

 

 

BTW Sargallath love the gif with Anna. My favorite character in PST, and one of the main reasons i was bummed with the ending. I was looking for some tail lovin'

[Spider]

Opinions differ I guess. For me the storytelling was at it's peak in BG1 and parts of TotSC and went downhill from there. I found a lot of the characters in SoA to be very bland and cliche. There were some that were really cool, but most of them were just dull. This does not mean that I think either SoA or ToB are bad games, I don't. I think they are great games (or a great game + expansion pack), I've played them both more times than I can remember. But for me that only reinforces that the story isn't what makes them great since a story-driven game rarely lasts through more than two or three playthroughs since after that the story is too well known.

[alx1078]

I've played them both more times than I can remember. But for me that only reinforces that the story isn't what makes them great since a story-driven game rarely lasts through more than two or three playthroughs since after that the story is too well known.

 

Or it could just mean that the story is so good that you don't mind replaying it, kinda like a really good movie. At least that's how it was for me.

[Kaftan Barlast]

People are putting on the rose colored glasses again. PsT was good, yes, far better than the critics of the day thought. But it's not the best CRPG ever done.

 

PsT's endings were not very good, even in the "best" ending, you get sent to hell without even knowing what you did to deserve that in the first place. That is called a plothole, and plotholes are bad.

[alx1078]

PsT's endings were not very good, even in the "best" ending, you get sent to hell without even knowing what you did to deserve that in the first place. That is called a plothole, and plotholes are bad.

 

Exactly my point! Although i wouldn't go so far as to call it a plothole, as throughout the game you got the feeling that you weren't the nicest guy. But still there should be something more thn just "off to hell with you!"

[Drakron]

... you get sent to hell without even knowing what you did to deserve that in the first place. That is called a plothole, and plotholes are bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is not exactly true, Ravel says exactly why TNO was looking for imortality.

 

There are no expecifics about it but TNO signed a contract that made him have to fight in the blood war when he died, that was what TNO was trying to escape from.

[alx1078]

There are no expecifics about it but TNO signed a contract that made him have to fight in the blood war when he died, that was what TNO was trying to escape from.

 

Ok. I remember playing the game, but i don't remember anything about any contract. I know (or at least i realised) that he was trying to escape from the blood wars, but i can't say i remember anything said about contracts.

[Spider]

Or it could just mean that the story is so good that you don't mind replaying it, kinda like a really good movie. At least that's how it was for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't work that way with movies either. If I like a movie because it has a brilliant story, I am far less likely to watch it again any time soon unless I feel there are aspects of the story I missed the first time. If I like a movie because of the acting or visual effects (or whatever) however, I can see them repeatedly.

 

I do see movies with good stories again, but only a few years later when I've forgotten some of the details.

 

In the end though, what constitutes a good story is completely individual. I am just presenting my view.

 

People are putting on the rose colored glasses again. PsT was good, yes, far better than the critics of the day thought. But it's not the best CRPG ever done.

 

As far as I recall, Torment actually got very good reviews and lots of critical acclaim. It was the sales that were somewhat lacking.

 

PsT's endings were not very good, even in the "best" ending, you get sent to hell without even knowing what you did to deserve that in the first place. That is called a plothole, and plotholes are bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Funny that. When I played it I felt I knew why TNO was going to the Blood Wars. I didn't experience a plothole anywhere. On my first playthrough I did feel that I missed out on what impact my character had on the party members, but that I got when I played as a mage (with high int/wis/cha).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

PST is more or less a JRPG ending. Regardless of what you do the whole game builds up to that one outcome. Unless you fail.

[Drakron]

That is simple.

 

When people die they go to the plane that matches their aligment but that is it, there they are not forced to do anything.there (even if the lower planes are not exactly good places to be on).

 

Now the LE demons (forgot the name) offer contracts, TNO would only fight in the Blood Wars if he signed one.

 

I dont remenber if the game said that or it have to be figured out from convertation but that was what happened.

[Kaftan Barlast]

I played it about a month ago and TNO is sentenced to fight in the blood war for something he did, something so terrible that it upset the planes themselves.

 

 

I would really have liked to know what that was.

[Arkan]

I played it about a month ago and TNO is sentenced to fight in the blood war for something he did, something so terrible that it upset the planes themselves.

 

 

I would really have liked to know what that was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I disagree. There is something about not having every minute detail spelled out for you that makes it (or can make it, rather) better. It let's your imagination run wild. It let's you come up with your own conclusions, though you may never know the truth.....

 

You know, I had a long drawn-out reply, but in the end, it's not going to change anyone's opinion..so whatever.

[Drakron]

Its D&D and nobody gets "sentenced", they go to the plane that matches their aligment ... unless they make a contract.

 

TNO was simply not a nice person and tried to escape from his fate, the end is TNO acepting his fate and moving on, breaking away from the circle.

[mr insomniac]

Hmm... played Torment too many times to ever look at it through rose-coloured glasses, and have to agree with Arkan. First time I played it, after being just blown away by the ending, I thought, "Well...what exactly did he do?"

 

Then I played it again and learned some things I hadn't discovered the first time, and then played it a third and fourth time, and learned a few more things... realized I didn't really want the details of the Nameless One's crimes. Didn't even want his name.

[Noceur]

People are putting on the rose colored glasses again. PsT was good, yes, far better than the critics of the day thought. But it's not the best CRPG ever done.

 

PsT's endings were not very good, even in the "best" ending, you get sent to hell without even knowing what you did to deserve that in the first place. That is called a plothole, and plotholes are bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, if you play through the game thoroughly enough, you'll know that The Nameless one damn well deserve to be in hell... practically every bad thing that you see in the game is a consequence of what The Nameless one did in the past, hehe.

Well, sure.. you can fix a lot of it if you play as good, but I'm not sure how redemption works in the PS setting.

 

Hopefully this isn't considered as a spoiler...

[Kaftan Barlast]

No, you'll get to know plenty bout what the "practical" incarnation did but as to the original nameless one, no one knows diddley squat. Not even himself, as he forgot after Ravel's treatment.

 

There is no way to find out what TNO's big crime was, the one that got him sentenced to hell = Plot hole. Missing link. Loose end

 

 

You might argue that its adds mystery etc. but it's just bad storytelling. You just dont leave a big question like that unanswered.

 

 

...most likely, this was supposed to have been some part of the game but it was cut out when BIS ran out of time or similar.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

A plot hole is a gap in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic set-up by the plot. Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses and flaws in a story, and writers try to avoid them (except in certain deliberate circumstances) to make their stories seem as realistic and lifelike as possible.

 

I don't see how not knowing what exact crime(s) the original incarnation committed is "a gap in storyline that goes against the flow of logic set-up by the plot." Care to explain?

 

"No, you'll get to know plenty bout what the "practical" incarnation did but as to the original nameless one, no one knows diddley squat. Not even himself, as he forgot after Ravel's treatment."

 

Except we do know the original incarnation describing the horribly evil deeds his later incarnations committed as nothing but a drop of water in the ocean compared to his crimes. I think that's enough information.

 

"...most likely, this was supposed to have been some part of the game but it was cut out when BIS ran out of time or similar."

 

AhhahahaHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAA!

 

Don't be stupid, it's not good for you.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...every little detail isn't supposed to be layed out for ya in PS:T; that's part o' what makes the story...if they decided ta add e'ery li'l detail o' TNO's crimes, they'd 'ave been at it forever since TNO had more lifetimes than Heinz has pickles...TNO was a powerhungry badass in his first life, that's givin' ta ya by the Good Incarnation hisself...in order not ta spend an eternity fightin' in the Blood War, he found Ravel an', unwittingly, separated hisself inta two beings, thus unbalancing the Planes an' addin' e'en more ta his "Gotta make up for this" list...yer not given it all cuz ya ain't supposed ta git it all...PS:T is all 'bout possibilities an' that eternal question:

 

What can change the Nature of a Man

 

...if yer lookin' fer somethin' that spells it all out fer ya, go play Zelda...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Drakron]

...

There is no way to find out what TNO's big crime was, the one that got him sentenced to hell = Plot hole. Missing link. Loose end

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What part of "in D&D people are send to the plane that matches their aligment" dont you get?

 

TNO made a contract, on death he was going to serve in the Blood War and what he was trying to avoid was fullfil his part on the deal when he tried to be made immortal.

 

That is why in the end he does not go play harp with the devas if he was LG, the contract he made forces him to serve in the Blood War for a certain amount of time (if he survives) and then he is released.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I don't see how not knowing what exact crime(s) the Original Incarnation committed is "a gap in storyline that goes against the flow of logic set-up by the plot." Care to explain?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Don't blink now because your about to see something very rare.

 

By leaving a question you leave a lasting impression. Remember the briefcase in Pulp Fiction ?

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"What part of "in D&D people are send to the plane that matches their aligment" dont you get?

 

TNO made a contract, on death he was going to serve in the Blood War and what he was trying to avoid was fullfil his part on the deal when he tried to be made immortal.

 

That is why in the end he does not go play harp with the devas if he was LG, the contract he made forces him to serve in the Blood War for a certain amount of time (if he survives) and then he is released."

 

It's quite clearly stated in the game that TNO goes to Hell because he was evil, very goddamn evil. In fact, it is also stated that the reason why he set out to become immortal was to buy him enough time to atone for his evil deeds. It is true his later incarnations have signed up for Blood War several times, even, but that's not why he sought immortality.

 

The fact that DnD rules disagree doesn't mean a thing. They also disagree with how TNO got huge XP bonuses for high wisdom, regenerated superfast with high constitution, how he could switch classes so easily and with how proficiencies were handled. It doesn't matter though, because that's still how the game works.

[Drakron]

What are you talking about?

 

TNO looked for immortality to escape going to be send to the lower planes, even the most evil person does not want to be send there.

 

There is nothing to "atone" to, you are evil and you get send to the lower planes.

 

The core of the game is also how belif changes things, how you think Trias managed to make that city to slip into the lower planes.