Jedi good or bad?

[JediExile]

So what do you guys think? I defended the Jedi throughout my first playthrough of the game, but I'm wondering if that was a mistake. They seem to want to do the right thing, but end up doing the wrong thing in the end.

[Yst]

I've treated the Jedi as more good than bad in my playthoughs, despite my disliking the extremely negative way the Jedi end up being portrayed in these games in order to make the dark side seem psychologically probable.

 

The thing is, the dark side isn't naturally psychologically explicable, it's a compulsion brought on by an all-consuming force in the universe. We don't need the dark side justified to us by virtue of the light side being dominated by complete and utter twits.

[LoneWolf16]

I've treated the Jedi as more good than bad in my playthoughs, despite my disliking the extremely negative way the Jedi end up being portrayed in these games in order to make the dark side seem psychologically probable. 

 

The thing is, the dark side isn't naturally psychologically explicable, it's a compulsion brought on by an all-consuming force in the universe.  We don't need the dark side justified to us by virtue of the light side being dominated by complete and utter twits.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe they're trying to help us identify with the game, and the universe it's trying to portray...perhaps by making it as close to real life as possible.

[11XHooah]

The problem with the Jedi is that they are used to inaction. They take a neutral stance and watch how things play out. They talk about whether or not they will get involved for a very long time, and this drives the patience of some off the roof. What I would have recommended is that half the Jedi formulate a battle plan, and the other half debate. Then they are ready if necessary.

 

Another thing, the Jedi could have involved themselves in the Mandalorian Wars without shedding blood. The Jedi are known for controlling the minds of weaker beings, so why did they not use the Force to their advantage? Jedi could have easily dressed up as Mandalorians, and used their Jedi mind tricks to convince the enemy that they were one of them. Then the Jedi could have served as spies, and relayed intel to Republic forces to give them an edge on battle. They also could have launched covert operations to destroy Mandalorian weapon facilities and supply depots without killing anyone. They also could have sabotaged weapon and shield systems on board their ships.

 

Sorry for the ramble, but it pisses me off that the Jedi had so many advantages, yet they did not utilize them.

[Rambutaan]

IMHO, the Jedi are good AND bad. There are pros and cons being on either side of the Force Alignment Fence. Generally, the Jedi ARE good but in these games they seem a bit too manipulative for my tastes - they obviously don't believe in honesty and sentient rights...

 

For me, if given a choice, I would've stuck as my soldier class back in KOTOR 1 and beefed him up :D. I'm not really a big fan of the Jedi or the Dark Jedi. Jolee Bindo had the right idea .

[badges]

The problem with the Jedi is that they are used to inaction.  They take a neutral stance and watch how things play out. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

If every sneeze effects the galaxy when done by a Jedi. If every alm given to the poor brings about foment against the republic. If every action as done by the counsel or Jedi has far reaching consequences of huge proportion then, I would sit on my freaking hands too.

 

First, I guess we need to think of a typical jedi as a catalyst for social change. Who can have a possitive or negative influence on a local scale that ripples to throughout the entire galaxy.

 

b

[Lara_Jade]

I think the Jedi are good; their aims and goals are to do what's best for the galaxy. I think they're problem is that they see everything that is slightly out of line with the code as being of the dark side. Because of that they don't really do what is needed of them, like refusing to go to war. But, their intentions are good they are just too afraid of someone falling (not that they don't have good reason) to effectively protect the galaxy.

 

I think Atton's opinions of the Jedi and the Sith are interesting and make a good point. How they're just two sides of a religion who are pretty much at each other's throats. There's good and bad if you go too extreme either way.

[warstrekkid]

I think the attitude of the jedi vaguely parallels that to the Crusaders or the members of the Inquistion(other than the obvious difference that the Crus/Inq were DRASTICALLY more aggressive), but the mentality is the same. It's not necessarily good or bad, per se, but they have an old belief and they cling to it, determined not to compromise to any other ideal. Basically blind fanaticism. (and sorry if I offended 'neone about the Crus/Inq)

[AlaricQelDroma]

Hm...Well, there's one way to look at this whole thing that people seem to be forgetting...

 

It's all about training an apprentice to be able to attain Knighthood within a reasonable timeframe...Say...20-30 years from the time they become a child padawan...

 

If the student is difficult because of personality flaws, this can do one of two things: Either the student will become frustrated with his master who is moving too slowly, or the student will learn the truth of the lessons of patience and take the time to genuinely learn from his master(s).

 

Look at real-life martial arts masters in monk-like societies...They spend about 30 years painstakenly training their apprentice, and they do not tolerate insubordination or children who become full of themselves and their weakish abilities and need to be taught a lesson or two.

 

A typical Shaolin Master will not only berate an apprentice who gets out of line, but the master will indeed engage and defeat the uppity pupil repeatedly until the student learns his place.

 

There are SOME Jedi Masters who teach in this way, Dooku and Jinn were two examples, and Windu may indeed be somewhat of an example of this teaching technique as well.

 

Zhar strikes me as the type of master who would have kept Revan in-line until he/she became stable enough to continue learning.

 

If Revan is truly evil, then he is much like Palpatine...He does not endlessly lash out at everyone in the galaxy with barely restrained rage, instead Revan used manipulation and tactics to outsmart and out-maneuver his enemies and the way he conducted himself inspired his allies to follow him, and some of his allies became his students.

 

I do not really consider Malak a true apprentice because he was too busy thinking about his own status and power, he never once stopped to really listen to his master. He let himself dive headlong into his uncontrollable rage and anger (much like crybaby Annie), and ignored ALL of Revan's teachings, and that is why he failed to lead the Sith like Revan did.

 

Revan lost his connection to the Force for a time, as did the Exile, and even Palpidious cut himself off from the Force at one time (supposedly)...

 

Every REAL Sith Lord who truly knew how to lead people around without actually ordering them to do things knew that they had to limit their connection to the Force and the Dark Side, because if they remained shackled to the Force forever, they would become so warped and twisted by the power of the Force that they would begin to lose their core personalities and would end up like their supposed apprentices did.

 

Anakin fell because he ignored Palpidious's true teachings and he embraced his rage and anger instead, and he lost his core personality to the power of the Force.

 

Genuine Dark Lords like Revan, the Exile, Exar, Ulic, Palpidious....They all had one thing in common: Once they reached their maximum power, they unleashed it, and then they cut themselves off from the Force afterwords.

 

I think Palpidious may reach his break-point after he wipes out the Jedi Council, which is why no one ever saw him use his force abilities after the Empire was truly established, up until he revived his connection to the Force when Luke appeared and tried to manipulate him into being a student.

 

Luke didn't succumb because he never had any genuninely life-altering experiences like Sion or Anakin did...Sion and Anakin were gravely injured by their masters, and then they lost their minds to the power of the Force once they were made whole again, and their bodies and minds continued to be over-written by the Force itself as they gave more and more of themselves to their addiction to the Force.

 

Obi-Wan is much like Luke, he was never assaulted by his masters, and he never had any real mental trauma to speak of.

 

It seems to me that the only REAL Dark Lords are people who were injured by their masters so badly that they just barely survived it, only to return years later...Or, they were mentally or emotionally wounded just as badly by something that happend to them in their lives.

 

Hm, now that I think about it:

Malak = Nearly killed by Revan

Sion = Nearly killed by Traya

Nihilius(sp?) = Was hurt VERY badly by someone...Possibly a Jedi Master from the Exar era??

Revan = Nearly killed by Bastilla's ill-timed raid...Malak was just taking advantage of Bastilla's horrendous timing, after all

Exile = Nearly killed by Traya before and after Malachor 5...Although I am still not exactly clear on wither it was the Force explosions or Traya manipulating Malachor's force engergies the first time...

Exar = Murdered by Jedi Masters at Yavin after slaying Vodo-Baas...Still not exactly clear as to which specific Jedi was the one responsible...Some say it was this Jedi, some say it was another one using the Force to assault him from afar...Sigh.

Ulic = Suffered similar fate as Exar

Anakin = Nearly killed (well, mostly killed ) by Obi-Wan

Palpidious = Unclear at this point who was responsible for his training OR his initial fall...It has been widely speculated that he somehow found Vodo-Baas's Holocron and taught himself, but I really don't beleive that...It just seems wrong, somehow..

 

We could go through a list of about 50 other Jedi who were nearly killed by their own masters or by their students...But that is un-nessasary I think...

 

I beleive that there cannot be light without dark...Dooku and Jinn were proof of this point. Palpidious was actually a good person at times, EVEN when he was the Emperor, he did do some good to the galaxy, even as the Emperor

 

I think that is what Lucas is trying to convey...Light and Dark cannot exist without one another..Dark Side does not always mean "Evil", and Light does not always mean "Good"

[JediExile]

Thanks for the post. After playing through this game I feel the Jedi have good intentions in mind, but aren't nearly as wise as they think they are. They don't get involed so they can't really make the right decision as far as decieding what to do. I agree that Jolee Bindo seems the way to go.

[AlaricQelDroma]

Thanks for the post. After playing through this game I feel the Jedi have good intentions in mind, but aren't nearly as wise as they think they are.  They don't get involed so they can't really make the right decision as far as decieding what to do.  I agree that Jolee Bindo seems the way to go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Jolee has his problems too...He didn't fall like everyone else did, but he *DID* fall

 

Had he had a more powerful connection to the Force, his destiny may have been much more powerful and had a greater influence on things.

 

Alas, Jolee's fall was a quiet thing, not because he didn't uh...Pheel things...But because he wasn't a pimp like Mace and couldn't wield his ****stick like Mace did A little bit of ****stick-envy there I beleive?

 

Could be envy of Vrook, possibly? Vrook seems like a partner Padawan for Jolee, they are both Cons, and they are both stubborn as hell, and they both can't tell REAL evil from punk-evil

 

EDIT: You know, for that matter, I don't think ANY Jedi Master except Vandar's race has been able to tell *REAL* evil from the run-of-the-mill punks like Malak.

 

IMHO, Vandar saw your manipulations if you lied all the time during your training....Vandar also saw what the Exile was doing, but he did the smart thing: He let history take it's course and did nothing to stand in the way of history.

 

Vrook, like Obi-Wan, tried to stand in the way of galactic history, and look what they got! Mace too!

 

When you see bad karma coming, you do the appropriate thing: You sit back and watch their behavior patterns until you see a flaw in how they conduct themselves, then you exploit that hole until they notice it and cover it up, then you rinse, lather, and repeat as nessasary until one Master or the other dies

 

EDIT2:

Oh, and for another thing!:

Yoda noticed Anakin's behavior, and he fully sensed his fall when his mother died. He KNEW what happend, but he kept that info to himself. Why? Because he KNEW that Anakin would eventually leave himself (AND HIS MASTER) exposed in the years that followed! Yoda KNEW that he could not defeat Palpidious and/or Anakin, they were both far too powerful and totally un-restrained for him to have any chance of defeating them, and so, when he dueled with Palpy, he merely fought him off and delayed him until he could make sure his escape route was not only a total secret, but that it was secure for him to hide a Dagobah.

 

I pretty much know how things will go in EP3...Annie is going to get pissed that the Order is USING him to get to Palpy, he thinks the Order are being traitors to the Republic...This will of course lead to him strengthening his leash to Palpy, and to his eventual duel with Obi-Wan Tampons.

 

Palpy is going to just sit back for 2/3 of the show and let the Order strut about and make total fools of themselves so they discredit themselves with the Republic, thereby allowing him to move into control of things later on.

 

Yoda is going to run around trying to lead everyone, but he will come to realize that the war has gone far beyond his ability to control, and he will begin to withdraw himself from the reins of power and try to fade from public view.

 

Obi and Mace will likely be doing the same thing, fighting as hard as they can and trying to mask their presense from the galaxy at large all the while...

 

In the end, Annie is going to get so pissed off at the Order for not making him a Master and for using him to control Palpy that he will get pissed and attack people at random, eventually he will come to Obi and fight with him over the lava pits.

 

While this is going on, Palpy is continuing to consolidate his power-bases and making the Order out to be arrogant, egotistical, and only interested in their own survival to the Republic at large. Mace and what's left of the Order make a last-ditch attempt to stop Palpy, Yoda meanwhile is learning more about Annie's future and about Luke and Leia and busy preparing to join the battle with Palpidious at the last minute after he makes his escape to Dagobah a total secret...

 

In the end, Palpy will end up saving Annie at the last second (or Obi may show pity), and Palpy will oh-so-skillfully manipulate what's left of Annie into becoming his personal assassin droid, and so begins the reign of the Emperor and Vader...Yoda will fight Palpidious to a stand-still, but since he knows his purpose is not to defeat Palpy, he makes his oh-so-smooth getaway and the Emperor lets him go because Palpy likewise knows that killing Yoda is not his true calling...

 

I imagine K3 will probably have some mix of the Exile and Revan (or their respective parties) working in tandem to either restore the galaxy, or to destroy what's left, only to have them all die in another 50 years and after another 500 the galaxy is once again in-balance.

 

IMHO, Annie *DID* bring balance in the end. The Dark Side had no power over the Light, and thus Annie became Evil in order to let the Dark Side have some more power so that things balanced out

 

When Luke destroyed the Emperor and Vader, it didn't eliminate the Dark Side, rather, it uh...Turned the Force neutral, actually...The Dark Side by that moment had become more powerful than the Light Side, and Palpy's death would reduce the Dark Side energy influences enough so that things would return to being balanced...More or less

[Yst]

I think the attitude of the jedi vaguely parallels that to the Crusaders or the members of the Inquistion(other than the obvious difference that the Crus/Inq were DRASTICALLY more aggressive), but the mentality is the same.  It's not necessarily good or bad, per se, but they have an old belief and they cling to it, determined not to compromise to any other ideal.  Basically blind fanaticism. (and sorry if I offended 'neone about the Crus/Inq)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that this is absolutely, completely inaccurate. For one thing, the aims of the Crusades and the Inquisition were completely different from one another (heck, some of the "Crusades" don't even bear any resemblance to one another amongst themselves). For another, the Jedi aren't interested in killing, expelling or converting all dissenters from their faith within the bounds of their realms (as, the Inquisition). They're if anything extremely hesitant to accept adherents, except under very specific, carefully controlled circumstances. They're a monastic order, not tyrannical absolutist theocratic dictators. And as for the second analogy, the Crusades, well, those were so various in their aims that it's hard to unite them by anything but, in the most prominent cases, the intent to secure the Holy Lands. But I certainly don't see the Jedi leading military conquests of Holy sites anywhere in the universe. Really, where does this analogy come from?