If the exile does not have memory loss...

[kbned]

why does he need a master? he couldnt have been a padawan when he left the jedi cause revan made him a general. he must have at least been a jedi knight or trained up to that level by revan before becoming a general. i dont see why he has kriea teaching him about the force and how to use it. even if he hasnt used the force in a long time he should still at least know how to use it. kriea seems to teach him some really basic force powers that he shouldnt need help with (reading/affecting minds, hearing the force, controlled breathing). jedi are supposed to build their own light saber but he has to get bao dur to help him build one. the exile doesnt even know what parts go into a light saber.

[Nitron]

The Exile turned his/her back on the Force, completely. After the trial, they made the decision to abandon it and no longer use it or even sense it.

[kbned]

but he changed his mind, he now uses the force. to use an analogy, if you stop reading for 10 years (dunno how long he stopped using the force but this should cover it), on the 11th year he changes his mind and starts again do you think he'll be able to read on his own or will he have to get a teacher to show him how to read again?

[witchzenka]

Using the Force after you've cut off all sensation of it is a little more difficult than just picking up a book.

It's more like learning to use a robotic arm after severing your flesh and blood arm. You'd need training.

The only memory loss the Exile has (aside from being sedated for three days) is that memory loss which the Exile actively sought.... the way a trauma survivor can block out memories of the trauma in order to get through day to day life.

[kbned]

learning to use a robotic arm is completely different from using a real arm. the force and how to use it has not changed, it would be more like not using his arm for 10 years and then using it again. it would be weak but he would still know how to move the fingers, make a fist, etc.

[Nitron]

Look at real life people who have been in comas, suffer brain damage, etc. They have to relearn even basic tasks, walking, tieing a shoe, and so on.

[witchzenka]

The Exile is trying to use the Force through the severing he/she did - a lot like using a robotic arm instead of his/her real arm, actually. So a teacher would be rather spiffy.

[kbned]

those people still know how to walk and tie their shoes, they just have trouble controlling their body (see end of this post). that is assuming they still have the parts of the brain they need to be able to do that. the exile is just as capable as before he severed anything.

 

if you want to get really technical about it, it would be like having his arm removed for a long time but then getting it back the way it was before it was removed. no functionality has been removed, he just has to get used to it again. you're assuming other problems of current medical science in your analogy, none of which would apply to him.

[witchzenka]

those people still know how to walk and tie their shoes, they just have trouble controlling their body (see end of this post). that is assuming they still have the parts of the brain they need to be able to do that. the exile is just as capable as before he severed anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they don't, and no, he isn't.

Someone who loses a skill due to a stroke or a brain injury has lost that skill. They have to be retrained to open up new connections in their brains, to store that information again and have access to it. The same as the Exile must learn to make new connections to the Force in order to use it.

The analogies presented work perfectly.

[kbned]

you're assuming other problems of current medical science in your analogy, none of which would apply to him.

 

he cut himself off from the force, blocked himself from using/feeling it. he did not remove parts of his brain that let him use the force. he did not change himself, just mentally blocked the force.

[Nitron]

It's as if he never used the force in the first place. Kind of like with Revan in part one. The council, rather than him, severed his connection. He had to train in order to use it again.

That's where the "Force Sensitive" feat comes in and "opens doors to strengths they did not know they had." The Exile (and Revan) didn't realize that the connection was still there, because he was blocking it (had it severed).

[witchzenka]

They do apply, but you don't seem to want to understand the argument.

Let's go with hysterical deafness instead.

This is a result of trauma. Someone becomes so intensely traumatized they actually lose their hearing (or sight, even). They will likely gain it back as they deal with the trauma and heal - but what they really need is a good therapist (ie. mentor) to help them deal with the trauma and put their shattered psyche back together.

The Exile spent nearly a decade actively not dealing with the trauma. In order to "hear" (use the Force again) the Exile is going to have to face things and try to mend, and a mentor can only help with that process.

The Exile needs to learn again how to feel and use the Force. As he or she does, and faces the past, and heals, he or she becomes even more powerful than the Exile was before the trauma. But in the interim, he or she needed a little boost - Kreia's bond with the Exile provided it.

[kbned]

It's as if he never used the force in the first place. Kind of like with Revan in part one. The council, rather than him, severed his connection. He had to train in order to use it again. 

That's where the "Force Sensitive" feat comes in and "opens doors to strengths they did not know they had."  The Exile (and Revan) didn't realize that the connection was still there, because he was blocking it (had it severed).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

are you saying that the way he uses a force power now is different than the way he used to use it? if an arm is severed but then re-attached, does the person use different parts of his brain or different muscles now? forget that we can not reattach an arm and the muscles that go with it, pretend that stuff is possible. i really cant believe i even have to explain this... its like you guys just ignore what i say just so you dont have to admit there is a problem witht he story.

[witchzenka]

Because there is not a problem It works perfectly.

And guess what - you can actually reattach an arm.

I've tried describing it to you in a way that would make it clear, but you don't want to consider it. To each his own.

[kbned]

if it could actually be reattached it would be usuable immediately. you're just talking about the arm physically being connected by a few stitches. that would pass for reattaching in current medical science but then thats the problem, you're working with the limitations of current medical science. things that do not apply here.

 

i've heard your opinion repeated over and over, you're stuck on the basics still. please let someone else with fewer prejudices reply instead. try replying to the bao dur having to teach the exile what a light saber is made out of and how to make one instead.

[Dimeron]

why does he need a master? he couldnt have been a padawan when he left the jedi cause revan made him a general. he must have at least been a jedi knight or trained up to that level by revan before becoming a general. i dont see why he has kriea teaching him about the force and how to use it. even if he hasnt used the force in a long time he should still at least know how to use it. kriea seems to teach him some really basic force powers that he shouldnt need help with (reading/affecting minds, hearing the force, controlled breathing). jedi are supposed to build their own light saber but he has to get bao dur to help him build one. the exile doesnt even know what parts go into a light saber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Why can't the exile be a Padawan. Remember, bulk of Revan

[kbned]

he must have at least been a jedi knight or trained up to that level by revan before becoming a general.

there is not much room for learning on the job while commanding an army. a padawan would still be a student, not ready for this kind of job.

[kbned]

in trying to argue my point this thread got pretty messy and somewhat off topic so i'll just sum it up before i take off. i guess i should just have skipped the analogies, it seemed to confuse more than explain.

 

i can agree that having cut himself off for so long he would not be at full potential right away. i do not agree that there is permanent damage though even if that were the case kriea knows no more about using the force under the exile's handicap than the exile does. she can't say anything about basic force powers the exile should not already know. if there was no memory loss then he should remember how to use the force and all his force powers. the exile re-established his link to the force by himself. (kriea contacts him through the force, he has to be connected to the force already for her to talk to him like this)

 

the exile does not know anything about building a lightsaber but at the acadamy the jedi have to build their own. bao dur has to tell him what parts are needed and help the exile build it. for there to be no memory loss the exile has to have never built a saber before but atris makes that theory impossible.

 

my question is why does kriea have to teach the exile basic force powers if there is no memory loss. why does bao dur have to make the exile's light saber? why does kriea teach morals to a former general and powerful jedi? the entire story is treated as if the exile has forgotten everything but malachor 5 and the madalorean wars.

[Blaise Russel]

i can agree that having cut himself off for so long he would not be at full potential right away. i do not agree that there is permanent damage though

 

Did you miss the whole 'wound in the Force' thing?

 

The Exile did more than just stop listening to the Force; it's not as if the connection to the Force is still there in him and he's just ignoring it. It's not like deciding not to read for ten years and then changing your mind come the eleventh. That's just ignoring your eyes.

 

He actually cut himself off from the Force, and not just metaphorically. He undid his Force connection, made himself 'Forceless' like normal people - and even then, he went further than that. He's a wound in the Force because of what he did to himself at Malachor V in order to survive all the death and destruction. It's gone, and he can't get it back precisely because it isn't an arm, or an eye, but something mental, spiritual, transcendental - and you can't get replacements for that.

 

The Exile only starts using the Force again when he's around Force-sensitive people - Kreia, Atton, Bao-Dur and the rest. Even then, he's not using his Force as such, but leeching/channeling it through his companions. He never relearns it.

 

Compare and contrast to Kreia - she was cut off from the Force, but retained a connection. She couldn't access it, but it was there. The Exile doesn't even have that.

 

He's like Nihilus, remember?

 

the exile does not know anything about building a lightsaber but at the acadamy the jedi have to build their own. bao dur has to tell him what parts are needed and help the exile build it. for there to be no memory loss the exile has to have never built a saber before but atris makes that theory impossible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Because you could build a complicated piece of machinery once in your youth and then reconstruct it ten years later, from scratch and using only your memory for reference without any help whatsoever?

[kbned]

i didnt forget about the wound in the force thing, i just dont think thats really whats going on here. no one in the game really seems to understand what happened to him. even at the end mullet jedi uses leveling your character as proof that you suck the force out of people. if he was some kind of force void he would just take in the force, not use it outward. doesnt seem even possible that a wound in the force can even use the force especially if this wound is "the death of the force". i think lucas arts was a little too generous with what they allowed in this game. even with it allowed there are conflicting statements made by different characters in the game on the topic of the exile being a "wound".

 

i didnt know kriea was cut off from the force but either way he was using the force before she even tried to help him with anything. when she taught him to hear and see with the force his dialog showed clearly that this was something new to him. it doesnt matter what happened to him, this is most definitely memory loss unless he never learned this stuff in the first place. there is no way revan would make him a general without teaching him this stuff if he didnt already know it.

 

as for the light saber, it was 3 pre built components in a casing and yes i'm pretty sure i'd rememeber something like that. especially considering it is one of the most important parts of becoming a jedi.

[213374U]

That is nice and all, but the exile isn't learning how to use the Force again, because he isn't actually using the Force. He has some Force-like abilities that he leeches from those around him and presumably from those he kills, through some weird Force bonds. So all of the losing an arm and suddenly getting it back analogies don't really apply.

 

But you are forgetting something even more important, Kreia herself had had her own connection to the Force somewhat severed, so her situation isn't any better than the exile's.

 

No, I didn't like Kreia lecturing me all over when supposedly the exile is a war veteran and an accomplished Jedi. I was really expecting a game in which the PC got to be the master, but this time around you're just another whelp.

 

The whole Kreia mentor business is just a plot device to give the Darth Traya plot a deeper involvement for the player. If you try to dissect it, it doesn't hold very well.

[Blaise Russel]

if he was some kind of force void he would just take in the force, not use it outward. doesnt seem even possible that a wound in the force can even use the force especially if this wound is "the death of the force".

 

Why not? Where does this leeched Force go, if not to the Exile's personal Force reservoir? Ditto for Nihilus.

 

The "Death of the Force" refers to being free of the destiny-controlling semi-sentient all-pervading Force - Kreia's hope, Kreia's goal - rather than actually destroying the Force. Nihilus was going to do that, but only because he'd end up consuming all life and then dying of starvation himself, leaving no life for there to be a Force of, for and from.

 

i didnt know kriea was cut off from the force but either way he was using the force before she even tried to help him with anything.

 

Not really. From Malachor V to waking up on Peragus with Kreia, the Exile never uses the Force.

 

when she taught him to hear and see with the force his dialog showed clearly that this was something new to him. it doesnt matter what happened to him, this is most definitely memory loss unless he never learned this stuff in the first place. there is no way revan would make him a general without teaching him this stuff if he didnt already know it.

 

What, you think every Jedi knows every technique of the Force? And that Revan would say "Why yes, Exile, you are an excellent tactician and leader, but because you don't have Force Sight then YOU CAN'T BE ON MY TEAM"?

 

as for the light saber, it was 3 pre built components in a casing and yes i'm pretty sure i'd rememeber something like that. especially considering it is one of the most important parts of becoming a jedi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I doubt it was as easy as that. You could mass-produce these highly-advanced pieces of technological equipment (laser swords! swords made out of light!) if they were 'just' three pre-built components. No, I think that they reduced the complexity of the task considerably because actually assembling a lightsaber out of tiny little bits yourself would be insanely boring.

 

And you'd have to be some kind of idiot savant to be able to remember everything entailed in assembling your own lightsaber (once, many years ago). In truth, I find your claim a little dubious, although honestly speaking it's not really relevant. And I'm not a Star Wars buff, so maybe it is that ridiculously simple...

 

This is not bearing in mind that the Exile is probably actively forgetting memories of being a Jedi, partly because he is not longer a member of the Order and also because of the whole Malachor V thing.

[Master Dahvernas]

The main reason... From a strictly gameplay perspective is... It is a video game and the whole point of it is to start out a "zero" and become a "hero" by the game's end. This isn't anything new to the world of (sci-fi) fantasy RPGs as we all know.

 

However, I also understand your concerns in that a lot of the dialogues with various NPCs actually did contradict each other... But not in the "this is one person's POV and this is another" sense. Some of the dialogues were just sloppy and you could tell they were rushed and not checked for continuity.

 

For example, you can speak to someone and get tons of info. from them in one sitting... Yet you go back and speak to them and it is as if they have forgotten who you are and you're both meeting for the first time.

 

I know this is more of a technological limitation (we don't have emergent AI that actually "thinks" and remembers things yet; we have to use pre-built scripts), but it really kills the immersiveness a lot of times and this is where a lot of the contradictions come out if you're actively paying attention to the story.

 

Also...

 

The whole "lightsaber components" is another gameplay device. It's basically a subquest and you have to get pieces A, B, and C before you complete it.

 

It only falls apart if you use real world logic in that even a 60 year old war vet can field strip a side arm/rifle (of their era) and put it back together without thinking twice... Even if they actively try and forget. This part I agree with.

 

Also, not to be a jerk... But I don't think people realize how different the military and what being in war really is from every day life. I haven't been in one myself, but my family is a military family who has actively served in major conflicts (excluding this one) and it IS a way of life.

 

It's no exactly like you see in the movies, but it literally becomes a part of who you are and helps defines you. Especially, when you are young as it determines where you live (on base or off; home or abroad), how you live (peacetime vs. war) and essentially shapes your views on a lot of things that "normal" people, civilians, don't have an opportunity to experience, good or bad.

 

I also think this is something this game is trying to hint at... But at the same times, it is almost working at cross purposes because SW is about escapism and fantasy and not trying to be a reflection of the real world in terms of politics, consequences for such actions like war and the like (at least, in my opinion).

 

On the same note, I like it when entertainment tries to address these things, like the film "Hotel Rawanda"... But I just think the SW universe should stick to being more escapist and fantasy driven then try and be more "deep" as TSL tries and again, this is why some things stand out as being inconsistent or detract from the immersiveness the devs are trying to put the player into.

[The Great Phantom]

The Exile lost ALL connections, whereas normal people like Kyle Katarn keep subconcious ties to it. He 'ripped' himself out of it, and needs to be around a Force Sensitive to bond with, so that he, once again, has access to the Force through them. (Kreia says that he feels the Force through others, as do the Masters)

[kbned]

Not really. From Malachor V to waking up on Peragus with Kreia, the Exile never uses the Force.

he got contacted through the force by kriea on peragus before she even taught him one thing. he has to be able to feel the force to talk to her like that. and yes revan would not have made him general if he were not proficient in the force. the exile CLEARLY was learning these basic force powers with dialog that this was the first time experiencing them. the light saber was indeed 3 pre-built components but he should still know how to build one since he had one for a long time which he had to maintain.

 

The "Death of the Force" refers to being free of the destiny-controlling semi-sentient all-pervading Force

death of the force can only mean one thing and having a larger force pool that you add to by leaching off others isnt it. even still, i dont even want to argue this anymore since this is all probably made up with no thought to continuity of the sw universe. there is too little known and the little said about it is just a few's opinions, not something any one character in the game actually understands fully.

 

i treat this the same way i do the whole midiclorean thing. it conflicts with much of what already has been said and brings in a lot of other issues that should never even be considered. it was a mistake not wholly thought out that they cannot take back.

 

The main reason... From a strictly gameplay perspective is... It is a video game and the whole point of it is to start out a "zero" and become a "hero" by the game's end. This isn't anything new to the world of (sci-fi) fantasy RPGs as we all know.

glad to finally get a reply that doesnt assume kotor 2 is always right and cannot make mistakes. i understand your reason here but they could also do that with the exile getting used to the force again after not using it in a long time. i would have rather he just regained his force abilities on his own and maybe kriea can comment on it but at the very least he shouldnt be forced to choose dialog that shows he learning this force power from kriea for the first time.

 

i agree with what you said on the lightsaber issue, the exile does need a trigger for telling the player what parts are needed, they have to be simple, and how to complete the mission. i dont know if obsidian thought it was funny to make the exile not remember how to make his only weapon, his jedi weapon, but they could have brought up the part list without this "joke".