The Kreia/Kae Question

[Zilod]

It's possible, but I doubt it severely... I can't see a General being seduced by an old hag like her, ever...

eheh now she looks like an old hag, but (if is Kea) is quite probable that she was in mid 20 when she felt in love for the Echani general... we also know that at that time she should be pretty beautifull...

 

(hihi i bet that if we had that Kreia ingame there where a lot less people willing to throw her out of Ebon Hawk )

 

 

Where does it say Arren Kae trained Revan, I've never found it yet...

 

Looked a bit too and didn't found still Forna was quite sure about a clear reference maybe he will point us to the dialogue

[phiont]

The Handmaiden's mother died waaaaaay before she had any consious memories,

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They never found her body.

 

 

and can you picture the Leader of the Echani with Kreia, even 10 years ago???

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At least she had 2 hands back then.

 

Where does it say that Revan was taught by Kae???

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Many characters say it - Zez Kai el (?), Kavar, Disciple.

 

 

the Exile never had a memory wipe.

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Kreia said:

 

"Then perhaps you should know... there are techniques in the Force, where one can cloud the memory of others, make their presence so small as to be unnoticed."

 

When the Exile asks if she is using such a technique on him she says:

 

"No - but if I did, you would never know, so my words only carry as much worth as you believe them to."

 

Shall we trust Kreia?

[kalimeeri]

 

Several problems... The Handmaiden's mother died waaaaaay before she had any consious memories, and can you picture the Leader of the Echani with Kreia, even 10 years ago???

 

Where does it say that Revan was taught by Kae??? I've only heard Kreia, and other Masters on Dantooine, but never Arren Kae...

 

Second, the Exile never had a memory wipe. Just because you don't remember his/her past, doesn't mean they don't. The lack of memory on Peragus was because of the sedatives (poison to mere mortals ) that the HK-50 used. There are inferences in the game about the Exile's past, and the devs assume you're smart enough to pick up on the hints...

 

:ph34r:

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Exile didn't have a memory wipe? He was Kreia's Padawan. This is STRONGLY inferred, both by the discussion on bonding (master-apprentice) and by the Jedi Council. How could he NOT remember her if she didn't put the whammy on him?

 

He has consciously or unconsciously blocked many things relating to the war itself, and has been on the outer rim so long he's lost track of current events in the Republic. But his training and his master would not be one of those memories. And no sedative would be that selective. She mind-wiped everything that had to do with her role in his life, so he would have no left-over prejudices, one way or the other.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well all three of the sith lords were changed. Perhaps in Kreias case it was accelerated aging :D

 

Reven had many teachers but Kreia was probably the first since they blamed her teachings for him falling.

[phiont]

Here's another question to consider.

 

After Kreia/Kae/Traya resumed teaching Revan at the Malachor V academy one of the first people Revan sought to eliminate in the Jedi Civil War was General Yussanis (by then a Senator), who had fought alongside Kae at Malachor.

 

Coincidence?

 

Maybe Yussanis knew that Kae had actually survived, but gone to the dark side. Maybe he refused to join her and, therefore became a risk that needed to be eliminated.

[phiont]

Where does it say Arren Kae trained Revan, I've never found it yet...

Looked a bit too and didn't found still Forna was quite sure about a clear reference maybe he will point us to the dialogue

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"Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars." -- Disciple

 

And several masters say this exact same line if asked about Revan's masters.

[phiont]

Here's the moment Handmaiden decides to seek jedification:

 

Handmaiden:  I have thought about what you have said, of my mother, of my bloodline. There is something I would ask of you.

 

Kreia: {Sighs, weary, knows that the player is about to do something bad} And so it ends.

 

Handmaiden:  I want you to teach me the ways of the Force. To become a Jedi Knight like my mother.There is no one else I would want to train me. I have seen you in battle, I have seen your heart, and you are what I want to be.It is like a hollow place inside me, but when I am with you, the echo dies. That is all I wish. I want to feel what my mother felt for my father, what ran through my mother's veins when she was one with the Force. I wish to hear what my mother heard as she fought the Mandalorians... until the moment she died on Malachor V.

Why would Kreia say "And so it ends" ? What has ended?

And why didn't she say anything like that upon the jedification of Mira or Atton?

 

 

 

Also... Kreia said the following about Revan: "And when he awakened to his potential, I was there to see it."

 

When, in Kreia's mind, did Revan awaken to his potential?

And where was she when she saw it? Malachor V ??

[Zilod]

Here's the moment Handmaiden decides to seek jedification:

 

Handmaiden:  I have thought about what you have said, of my mother, of my bloodline. There is something I would ask of you.

 

Kreia: {Sighs, weary, knows that the player is about to do something bad} And so it ends.

 

Handmaiden:  I want you to teach me the ways of the Force. To become a Jedi Knight like my mother.There is no one else I would want to train me. I have seen you in battle, I have seen your heart, and you are what I want to be.It is like a hollow place inside me, but when I am with you, the echo dies. That is all I wish. I want to feel what my mother felt for my father, what ran through my mother's veins when she was one with the Force. I wish to hear what my mother heard as she fought the Mandalorians... until the moment she died on Malachor V.

Why would Kreia say "And so it ends" ? What has ended?

And why didn't she say anything like that upon the jedification of Mira or Atton?

I think she is referring to the final step for the fall of Atris

 

after that she says to Atris... "Betrayal"

 

i think she knows that Atris will not understand, will definitively succumb to her emotions and see what she become.

 

 

Also... Kreia said the following about Revan:  "And when he awakened to his potential, I was there to see it."

 

When, in Kreia's mind, did Revan awaken to his potential?

And where was she when she saw it?  Malachor V ??

I think too that Kreia was on Malachor at the time of battle but this doesn't imply that she was Kea.

 

as said i agree that there are many hints and many things makes a lot of sense but this way we will have not a betrayal path.

[Msxyz]

It surely seems possible; Kae did betray the jedi teachings by falling in love. There are also many hints about "something bigger" in Kreia's past which unfortunately isn't revealed. Some more "unfinished businness stuff" ?

 

Honestly, even before this thread, I had suspected that Kreia might have been Brianna's mother. I'm surprised to see that other people came to the same conclusions.

[Zilod]

It surely seems possible; Kae did betray the jedi teachings by falling in love.

 

This is actually my only problem to see Kreia as Kea...

 

Kreia felt because she was betrayed by someone she loved while it really seem that Kea felt for love

[The Great Phantom]

Here's another question to consider.

 

After Kreia/Kae/Traya resumed teaching Revan at the Malachor V academy one of the first people Revan sought to eliminate in the Jedi Civil War was General Yussanis (by then a Senator), who had fought alongside Kae at Malachor.

 

Coincidence?

 

Maybe Yussanis knew that Kae had actually survived, but gone to the dark side.  Maybe he refused to join her and, therefore became a risk that needed to be eliminated.

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Once again, not entirely true.

 

Revan tried to kill Yussanis because of the fact he was the leader of an 'empire' of exceptional warriors... If he was a General, then he would have the coveted ability to tell one's true goals while in combat. He would know something was up with Revan. Plus, it is said that the greatest of the Echani can predict the outcome of a battle months, if not years, in advance. This would be like a future sense of Battle Meditation, and Revan did not need the competition in his campaign.

 

Handmaiden talks about how her Father returned after the Wars, and how he told of her mother's death.

 

As for the memory wiped, I was not referring to Kreia... she probably had a lot to do with many things, but Revan had much more... Could Kreia have been employed by the "True Sith"? She seems like she is setting everybody up for their coming, and perhaps they twisted her hatred of the Force to their ends by creating echoes through her... I doubt it, though.

[Msxyz]

This is actually my only problem to see Kreia as Kea...

 

Kreia felt because she was betrayed by someone she loved while it really seem that Kea felt for love

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I rember that Kreia, when she was speaking about her past as jedi, said something like: "You cannot find all the answer you seek into the jedi code. You've to search for them elsewhere". So the feeling was mutual. She betrayed the order as much as the order left her because it couldn't provide an adegaute answer.

 

Something similar to what happened to Jolee and, even if the outcome was different, in the end both characters feel like they were betrayed by the Jedi.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It may have been a storyline that was in the back of the mind as the writing went on. Then it may have become a case of oh no we cant do that it's just too Luke Skywalker (then again going for an EP V feel who knows).

 

The big problem with it as a part of the plot is its rather big and it would be odd to restrict it to only the male exile. It really depends at what point the alternate NPC's were introduced I suppose.

 

It's certainly a subplot you could make work without too much difficulty.

Especially when you consider what happened to Sion and Nihilus and that Kreia displays a similiar sort of advanced aging to EP.

[Zilod]

This is actually my only problem to see Kreia as Kea...

 

Kreia felt because she was betrayed by someone she loved while it really seem that Kea felt for love

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I rember that Kreia, when she was speaking about her past as jedi, said something like: "You cannot find all the answer you seek into the jedi code. You've to search for them elsewhere". So the feeling was mutual. She betrayed the order as much as the order left her because it couldn't provide an adegaute answer.

 

I was referring mostly when she speak with Atris in the end and also when she compare her path to atris one when you ask her about Atris.

 

In these 2 points she is quite clear about that.

 

 

 

 

for the sideplot

mmm i don't think this plot is really important for the story is more a curiosity and to know better the chars, it will doesn't change anything if Kreia is the Handmaiden mother or not.

[Helton]

It surely seems possible; Kae did betray the jedi teachings by falling in love.

 

This is actually my only problem to see Kreia as Kea...

 

Kreia felt because she was betrayed by someone she loved while it really seem that Kea felt for love

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I don't see Kea having a child as a betrayal, or as falling to the dark side.

 

The council exiles her. Why? Because she loved, and had a child. Is that not a betrayal? She had been loyal to them her entire life, and she was cast out. It runs along the whole theme that the problem is the masters, the council. They fail to show Kae forgiveness, and thus exile her, betray her. Being the ripe age of 30-40 (guessing Handmaiden at about 20), she had enough time to have trained a few padawans, including Revan...

 

The dark side makes people appear older, and I imagine having the force ripped from you would mess up your face as well, so of course Kreia looks like she's 90.

 

Like the original poster has said, this is just a theory and can't be proven. But you have all failed to disprove it as well, and I think it is quite an interesting potential sub-plot.

[phiont]

...it will doesn't change anything if Kreia is the Handmaiden mother or not.

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True, especially with the existing abrupt ending.

 

However, a lot of unused sound files indicate that a larger ending had been developed - one where a number of supporting characters were called upon either to side with the Exile or against.

 

When Handmaiden pledged her loyalty to the Exile she promised to honour him as she honours the face of her mother. Handmaiden's character would have found itself in an ideally tormented struggle at the end if caught having to choose between the Exile and a Kreia ultimately revealed to be her long lost mother.

 

*sigh*

[Zilod]

nono the Betrayal path seem to be quite fixed and clear

 

she have first to be betrayed to become a traytor

 

so before she turns against the code and to betray it she have to be betrayed

 

 

she speak about that when she meet Atris

 

 

However, a lot of unused sound files indicate that a larger ending had been developed - one where a number of supporting characters were called upon either to side with the Exile or against.

 

When Handmaiden pledged her loyalty to the Exile she promised to honour him as she honours the face of her mother. Handmaiden's character would have found itself in an ideally tormented struggle at the end if caught having to choose between the Exile and a Kreia ultimately revealed to be her long lost mother.

 

*sigh*

 

aaaaa you put the blade in the wound

yup i know and sadly i can't do anything exept to agree....

 

*sigh*

[phiont]

Handmaiden talks about how her Father returned after the Wars, and how he told of her mother's death.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She does?

On the contrary, this is what she said to me:

 

"The fact that our father chose battle is not shameful, but that is not the reason he went to war. He went to war to be with the one he loved, but not the one he had pledged himself to. He was disloyal. I am the mark of that disloyalty. It is said that such things run in the blood, and I have fought long to prove that this is not so. That is why I am different from my sisters. Yet I am pledged to them and Atris, and I would die before betraying them. I tell you this in trust, and ask that you not speak of it to others. I only wish you to know. Because when my father returned from the Mandalorian Wars, he walked as you do now. There was something wounded inside him. He did not speak of what had happened there. And with us, he was silent. Changed."

 

As a great Echani warrior I very much doubt he would have reacted this way if his lover had heroically fallen in battle. Instead, his silent, changed and wounded behaviour fits perfectly with having witnessed his lover's fall to the dark side - becoming everything Yusanis had spent his life struggling against.

 

The more I read, the clearer it becomes.

[Helton]

nono the Betrayal path seem to be quite fixed and clear

 

she have first to be betrayed to become a traytor

 

so before she turns against the code and to betray it she have to be betrayed

 

 

she speak about that when she meet Atris

 

 

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I know what you're talking about. I wouldn't say having a child is automatically considered a betrayal. I doubt that she was actively thinking of spiting the council as she made love, and so it cannot be considered a betrayal.

[Ace]

I do think that Kreia being the Handmaiden's mother makes sense. It seems like a plot thread removed either due to constraints or maybe because it would mean more plot points that female characters would miss.

 

Anyway, this dialog would have been pretty powerful:

 

< if Exile male, to Handmaiden> Think. Think before you throw away your life for him. Think of everything you will lose by dying.Your lusts unfulfilled. A dance, unfinished. A love, requited. Think before you give it up so quickly.

 

Handmaiden: By putting my weapons down I will dishonor the Exile. I cannot dishonor the Exile anymore then I can dishonor the memory of my mother.

 

Kreia: Foolish words. Perhaps I could simply marr your face to show how foolish your clinging to a memory of her is. Or perhaps the truth would leave a greater wound...

 

Handmaiden: Your words are hollow Traya. Your lies will end here today. If not by my hand, then by the Exile's.

 

Kreia: Hollow? {[Kreia gives a wry smile]} Then know the truth and suffer for it. Arren Kae did not die at Malachor, or at least not in the way you believe... Look into your feelings...

 

Handmaiden: {[in despair]} No... it... {These last words are said in pure anguish} it cannot be...

 

<presumably the Handmaiden collapses at this point>

 

Kreia: {[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia turns to Visas.]}And you, blind one, you have hungered to strike me down ever since you saw the bond the exile and I share.

 

Anyway, it avoids the whole: "I am your mother!" "NOOOOO!" thing, while still having the impact for the plot.

[phiont]

Yes, Ace, exactly!! Well put.

 

 

Ok, I'm done with digging into the dialog.tlk file because the following two quotes placed side by side have me fully convinced that, at one point, Kreia was intended to be Master Kae (Handmaiden's mother):

 

"As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that. And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had." -- Disciple

 

"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever." -- Kreia

[tmp]

This is quite interestiing theory, and not really completely implausible. Am feeling rather dubious about it, since Kreia strikes me as someone quite a few years older than 45-55 ... 60, maybe, but that's stretching things. (i mean mostly mental age here, btw.)

 

However, one thing that does make me almost wish it was true... is the horror that's going to sweep through all handmaiden's fanboys when they realize what the love of their life is going to look like few years down the road...

[kalimeeri]

This is actually my only problem to see Kreia as Kea...

 

Kreia felt because she was betrayed by someone she loved while it really seem that Kea felt for love

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I rember that Kreia, when she was speaking about her past as jedi, said something like: "You cannot find all the answer you seek into the jedi code. You've to search for them elsewhere". So the feeling was mutual. She betrayed the order as much as the order left her because it couldn't provide an adegaute answer.

 

Something similar to what happened to Jolee and, even if the outcome was different, in the end both characters feel like they were betrayed by the Jedi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Something to consider... It doesn't seem that what the Jedi order did to her would be sufficient to be regarded a betrayal. After all, she knew and lived by the Jedi Code, and she knew the consequences.

 

So Kae obviously hid the child, probably had little contact with her after she was born. The Jedi were taken young, so their parents couldn't teach them--what about the Echani? They don't really question the absence of parents. It might be the perfect place for her--and fitting, because they are not Force users. The child might never discover any Force potential (Kreia's hatred for the Force?)

 

But it only worked for 10 years. I think that the betrayal is probably related to how the Jedi found out about the child. Her anger and her feelings of betrayal are personal. Perhaps General Y was a little drunk one night and blabbed, or maybe he got angry with her for some reason... but he's dead, so we can't ask him. And Kreia ain't tellin'.

[Ace]

There is also an odd thing related to the names:

Kae

Traya

Kreia

 

It's like Kreia is a mixture of "Kae" and "Traya."

[phiont]

Hey Ace, how would you have scripted a great final scene where Kreia passes away in the arms of her daughter, Brianna? Perhaps Kae's face would suddenly recover some of it's youth as Malachor and the dark side slowly released it's grip on her.

 

What would have been their parting words to one another?