phiont Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 Ok, I've just had the coversation with Handmaiden about her mother right next to Kreia and Kreia didn't even blink. Well actually maybe she did, I couldn't really see her eyes. To be continued... g'nite. :ph34r:
Zilod Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Even if Exile's memory wasn't wiped (although he didn't even recognise Bao-Dur) then keep in mind that Kae's relationship to Yussanis was secret. I don't even recall hearing that they were married. "Jedi don't have families" as Mira said. And given that the 10 year-old Handmaiden had no recollection of her mother it seems reasonable that the Exile never knew of her. He didn't recognize him but if i remember right is also not a total stranger to him. Also i think too that they where not married and their relationship was secret, but still Yusanis followed her to the war so we can suppose that they fought togather. I think it can be that he didn't know her directly or he didn't know who she was, but also probable that he saw her around and they even fought toghater. So i don't say he should recognize Kreia, but that maybe she should not seem completely stranger to him. (all of this also implying that he didn't know her before) tought and retought about it and finally decided to stay to what the Exile said... that he doesn't remember Kea, if Kea is Kreia she had the means to do that and to hide her presence, she says that she is not manipulating the Exile mind but this doesn't imply that she haven't done it in the past. Maybe is just that, as said in the beginning, to see them as the same persone is a strong and old temptation, but i can consider this point resolved. (if really the exile doesn't know Kea before the war) But still the first point is in place.
darth_geezus Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 there's something wrong with Kreia's eyes...just do the first person thing with Keria and you will notice that she see just like Visas, maybe Kreia and Visas are from the same planet? or she just is blid and see trough the force...
Dimeron Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 there's something wrong with Kreia's eyes...just do the first person thing with Keria and you will notice that she see just like Visas, maybe Kreia and Visas are from the same planet? or she just is blid and see trough the force... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And next thing we know people would be saying Visas and handmaiden are sisters and share the same mother. "
witchzenka Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 The Exile doesn't remember Bao because he or she doesn't want to - spent a lot of time wandering and purposely forgetting what has happened. -Zenka The Evil Cow http://kotorsocial.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi
Zilod Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 there's something wrong with Kreia's eyes...just do the first person thing with Keria and you will notice that she see just like Visas, maybe Kreia and Visas are from the same planet? or she just is blid and see trough the force... the second one, she says that her eyes got damaged some time ago (probably when Nihilus and Sion betrayed her), she can also repair her eyes if she want but she doesn't need to do that as she can also see trough the force.
stujlaird Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 there's something wrong with Kreia's eyes...just do the first person thing with Keria and you will notice that she see just like Visas, maybe Kreia and Visas are from the same planet? or she just is blid and see trough the force... the second one, she says that her eyes got damaged some time ago (probably when Nihilus and Sion betrayed her), she can also repair her eyes if she want but she doesn't need to do that as she can also see trough the force. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> IIRC, she says that her eyes atrophied through use (Shouldn't that be lack of use?) Personally, I think that the significant pause when Kreia says " she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force." sounds like there's something secret concerning Kreia and Kae. Also, she sounds rather oddly vehemant when she tells you not to train Handmaiden; to "Let the bloodline die at Telos", or whatever the exact phrasing was. Let's face it, though, we'll never really be sure, because of tw ocrucial factors: 1. The massive, brutal, plot cuts. 2. Kreia lies and misdirects so much, there's no real way to be sure what, if anything, that she says is true.
Aegis Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Well, she doesn't exactly jump with joy whenever you decide to train anyone as jedi, so I'm not sure how relevant her dislike for a jedi Handmaiden is.
stujlaird Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Well, she doesn't exactly jump with joy whenever you decide to train anyone as jedi, so I'm not sure how relevant her dislike for a jedi Handmaiden is. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> She doesn't jump with joy, full stop. I wonder if she's anhedonic. She just seems rather vehemant on the subject of training Handmaiden, especially as I haven't done it yet; just been talking to Handmaiden a lot.
Aegis Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 She is vehemently against pretty much anything involving the crew, such as having them join you, help them, charging up their loading ramps etc.
stujlaird Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 She is vehemently against pretty much anything involving the crew, such as having them join you, help them, charging up their loading ramps etc. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> True, but she's more vehemant about Handmaiden, especially since at the point I've reached, it's just a hypothetical conversation.
witchzenka Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 She wasn't against Sith-ifying the Handmaiden, only Jedifying her. She doesn't like anyone who competes for your attention/affection/respect. Her head nearly explodes when you bring the Disciple aboard. -Zenka The Evil Cow http://kotorsocial.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi
phiont Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 She is vehemently against pretty much anything involving the crew, such as having them join you...<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't get any reaction at all from Kreia about training Atton or Mira; only Handmaiden. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to train Bao-Dur. Her head nearly explodes when you bring the Disciple aboard.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> So far, I've only played as a LS male. I'm very curious about Handmaiden's role after Telos if she doesn't join your party. And does the Disciple (Mical?) also happen to reveal that his mother was one of Revan's masters, later exiled from the Order and died at Malachor V, even though her body was never recovered? Maybe there's also a "son of Kreia" plot buried in there.
stujlaird Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 I'm very curious about Handmaiden's role after Telos if she doesn't join your party. And does the Disciple (Mical?) also happen to reveal that his mother was one of Revan's masters, later exiled from the Order and died at Malachor V, even though her body was never recovered? Maybe there's also a "son of Kreia" plot buried in there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No sign of Handmaiden at all if you play as a female character. Disciple's revealed at least some of his past to me, and there's no sign of what you suggest for him.
Aegis Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Oddly enough, she doesn't seem to mind Mira. I suppose this has something to do with this "Huntress" thing that never really goes anywhere, but I'm just guessing. As for Atton, she expresses her feelings about him more than once. Regardless, this is all circumstantial evidence at best. It doesn't really prove anything, except a vague possibility.
The Great Phantom Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Ok so here's a possible version of what happened: Revan's former master, Arren Kae, was exiled for secretly having a child with the Echani General. The secret was revealed 10 years later and she was exiled by the Jedi council. Following that she joined Revan at Malachor and, while everyone thought she had perished, she was actually secretly discovering and re-establishing the Trayus Academy. This is when she resumed being Revan's master, beginning the second apprenticeship that Kreia mentions having with Revan. Revan then finds the Star Forge, attacks the Republic and gets captured. Following the events of KotOR I, Revan recovers his memory of Kae/Kreia and the Trayus Academy, but insists he must go to Malachor V to face it alone. What happened there is not clear. Perhaps Revan found the Exile out there already under the influence of Traya. Perhaps Revan, who had studied force bonds tried to free the exile from Traya with a memory wipe and then have Admiral Onasi send the Harbinger to pick him up. [Although the Harbinger's logs indicate that the Exile was not picked up alone.] That's when Darth Traya (Kae/Kreia) was cast out by Sion and Nihilus. Maybe they were jealous about the attention she was paying to the exile or maybe she got reattached to Revan against their interests. Whatever happened, she managed to escape Malachor V on the Ebon Hawk that Revan had arrived on, but with Sion pursuing her and the Exile, already on the Harbinger. The rest is history... I'm trying to be a bit scientific about this - that is to say that a theory can be valid until proven wrong. :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Several problems... The Handmaiden's mother died waaaaaay before she had any consious memories, and can you picture the Leader of the Echani with Kreia, even 10 years ago??? Where does it say that Revan was taught by Kae??? I've only heard Kreia, and other Masters on Dantooine, but never Arren Kae... Second, the Exile never had a memory wipe. Just because you don't remember his/her past, doesn't mean they don't. The lack of memory on Peragus was because of the sedatives (poison to mere mortals ) that the HK-50 used. There are inferences in the game about the Exile's past, and the devs assume you're smart enough to pick up on the hints... :ph34r: Geekified Star Wars Geek Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" -Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom) "The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."
The Great Phantom Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 She is vehemently against pretty much anything involving the crew, such as having them join you...<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't get any reaction at all from Kreia about training Atton or Mira; only Handmaiden. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to train Bao-Dur. Her head nearly explodes when you bring the Disciple aboard.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> So far, I've only played as a LS male. I'm very curious about Handmaiden's role after Telos if she doesn't join your party. And does the Disciple (Mical?) also happen to reveal that his mother was one of Revan's masters, later exiled from the Order and died at Malachor V, even though her body was never recovered? Maybe there's also a "son of Kreia" plot buried in there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm still for the theory that Kreia trained Arren Kae... She was a 'failure' and Kreia is known for bringing up 'failures'... She's only against training Handmaiden for the same reason she's against Visas: They have sworn oaths to other Masters, one that could interfere with her/your goals. They could betray you at any time, and she tells you to manipulate them, instead... Geekified Star Wars Geek Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" -Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom) "The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."
Aegis Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Second, the Exile never had a memory wipe. Just because you don't remember his/her past, doesn't mean they don't. The lack of memory on Peragus was because of the sedatives (poison to mere mortals ) that the HK-50 used. There are inferences in the game about the Exile's past, and the devs assume you're smart enough to pick up on the hints... Yeah, but you have to admit that this whole "the character knows something you don't" issue makes playing the game rather awkward. Like when for example Bao-Dur shows up and calls you general, you can either not understand why he does it, or you can pretend to understand it (i.e. your character understands, you don't). Sure, you'll eventually understand why, but only afterwards.
Zilod Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 eheh as my avatar show i do a twist and reply to Great Phantom but just to try to resolve these points. Several problems... The Handmaiden's mother died waaaaaay before she had any consious memories, and can you picture the Leader of the Echani with Kreia, even 10 years ago??? actually it should be 20-25 years ago, maybe even more. as said is likelly that the Handmaiden didn't saw her mother not because she left for the war but because she was at jedi enclave leaving her daughter to her lover. It seem that when Kea joined the war the Handmaiden was around 10 year old Second, the Exile never had a memory wipe. Just because you don't remember his/her past, doesn't mean they don't. The lack of memory on Peragus was because of the sedatives (poison to mere mortals ) that the HK-50 used. There are inferences in the game about the Exile's past, and the devs assume you're smart enough to pick up on the hints... :ph34r: i agree with that, but as said in the other post the Exile don't remember her and it seem that Kea had the same power of Kreia to hide her presence and to manipulate mind. Still as said i still more inclined to think (due to the betrayal path) that Krea and Kea are not the same person.
phiont Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 As for Atton, she expresses her feelings about him more than once.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> About Atton's jedification? Really? For me, the only jedification Kreia ever complained about was Handmaiden's. Regardless, this is all circumstantial evidence at best. It doesn't really prove anything, except a vague possibility. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is not about proving anything. Proving is not possible. Then this whole Kreia/Kae idea would end up being a simple fact and not a theory. So, since this is just a theory then this discussion is really about disproving it. Unless a developer actually steps forward to reveal that the storyline really did include a special Kreia/Kae character then this will only ever be a theory. And all that anyone might ever concluded is that this plot element was developed, but discarded (along with so much else) from the game's final build.
The Great Phantom Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Arren Kae left the Jedi RIGHT after her child was born, then left to be with her illegitimate husband in the Mandalorian Wars. Handmaiden doesn't remember her, only her Father after the Wars, because her Father was the only one that lived to return. She says how he told her that she died... Besides, Handmaiden's mom died when she was young, and Kreia was NEVER young enough to have children... except maybe, if she was lucky, during the Great Hyperspace War, 1000 years ago ... Seriously, though, she was probably a Knight during the Great Sith War... Geekified Star Wars Geek Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" -Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom) "The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."
Zilod Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Arren Kae left the Jedi RIGHT after her child was born, then left to be with her illegitimate husband in the Mandalorian Wars. Handmaiden doesn't remember her, only her Father after the Wars, because her Father was the only one that lived to return. She says how he told her that she died... Besides, Handmaiden's mom died when she was young, and Kreia was NEVER young enough to have children... except maybe, if she was lucky, during the Great Hyperspace War, 1000 years ago ... Seriously, though, she was probably a Knight during the Great Sith War... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> nono when her child was discovered, around 10 year later she was born. is stated ingame in the dialogue about her also by logic if she joined the war when her child was born it means that the Handmaiden is max 15 year old
The Great Phantom Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 Which means Kreia would still be too old to give birth to a healthy child, Jedi or no... Hey, you said Scientifically here... Geekified Star Wars Geek Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" -Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom) "The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."
Zilod Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 we really don't know how old is she. I think too that Kreia should be at least around 60 (more inclined to think about 70) but is also true that as Atton says at the beginning she seem to have suffered a lot and by his "description" is quite probable that she demonstrate more years than she have... if she is 50-55 for example it could be the Handmaiden mother considering that the handmaiden is around 20 or maybe even a bit more.
The Great Phantom Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 It's possible, but I doubt it severely... I can't see a General being seduced by an old hag like her, ever... Where does it say Arren Kae trained Revan, I've never found it yet... Geekified Star Wars Geek Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" -Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom) "The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."
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