Ravager = Star Destroyer?

[Aegis]

if they are republic ships why we don't see a single republic ship of that class?

If that is a "common" republic design we should see some of them in both sides, expecially in the final battle where the republic use almost all the resources to attack the starforge.

 

Who said it was common? It could've been an experimental interdictor prototype. In fact, now that I think about it, I haven't heard of another interdictor ship in the republic fleet, meaning that the Leviathan would almost certainly be of a different design.

 

Rakatan have a superior technology, it makes quite sense that if they are Rakatan ships they will be superior to the republic ones.

why someone should use a biplane instead of a F22?

 

We have fully automatic rifles and machine guns today. Yet soldiers are still issued pistols and even knives. Heck, there are a wide array of assault rifles, machine guns, sub-machine guns, semi-automatic rifles, pistols and knives. Why? Because all weapon-types and designs may not be the most suitable one for every situation. Furthermore, we have no way of telling exactly how good the Star Forge technology was. We know it could produce a lot of ships, not the quality of the ships. And that still doesn't address the interdictor technology issue.

 

I could agree with you if there were other ships composing Malak's fleet, but there weren't. In all the scenes displaying the Star Forge there's always a swarm of those ships around.

 

I believe it's also quite clear that the fleet at the Star Forge was not the entire Sith fleet, only a garrison. As such, why would former republic ships be stationed there in the first place? It'd make more sense if the defense force consisted of ships that can easily be repaired and replaced by the Star Forge if the need should arise.

[213374U]

I could agree with you if there were other ships composing Malak's fleet, but there weren't. In all the scenes displaying the Star Forge there's always a swarm of those ships around.

 

I believe it's also quite clear that the fleet at the Star Forge was not the entire Sith fleet, only a garrison. As such, why would former republic ships be stationed there in the first place? It'd make more sense if the defense force consisted of ships that can easily be repaired and replaced by the Star Forge if the need should arise.

My point exactly. The ships displayed in the Star Forge cutscenes were of the same design as the Leviathan. If those were alien ships, so was the Leviathan. You made some nice arguments for me.

[Aegis]

I don't remember seeing ships detailed enough to tell whether they were identical to the Leviathan in the cutscenes. Any pictures?

[213374U]

I don't have the game installed right now, but the scenes of the final battle are quite detailed. Perhaps somebody can post some pics of that.

[Zilod]

i agree that probably sith fleet was just a garrison, but the rebel ship whre a massive force and they had not a single ship resembling the sith ones

 

not to say that to destroy 2 of that ships they need Bastila's battle meditation and half of the regular fleet.

 

 

we are speaking about battleships not knives... there are not operative galleons and wind powered frigates in the US navy for example.

 

 

also the Rakatan technology is quite superior to the republic one.

The starforge can produce an endless fleet, the starmap where destroyed but they rebuilt themselves in some millenia, the field that surrond the unknow planet can destroy all the republic fleet, the prison cube is way better and safer than a containment field...

 

Is probable that the Rakatan ships are not the best product of their technology (as they don't seem to be force powered) but still they showed to be way better than any republic fleet design ship.

[DSLuke]

......the rebel ship......

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What rebel ship??

[Drakron]

BioWare used obvious themes from Star Wars original triology and even the prequels.

 

That is why the Sith have "Star destroyers" and "TIEs" as the Republic had "Correlian corvettes" and "A-wings".

 

No matter what the Leviathan was a Republic Ship.

[213374U]

No matter what the Leviathan was a Republic Ship.

Proof = 0. Mission Failed.

[DSLuke]

No matter what the Leviathan was a Republic Ship.

Proof = 0. Mission Failed.

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I think it was mentioned it was Saul Karaths' ship and possibly the one that lead the attack on Telos.

 

But it was never mentioned that it was a republic ship.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Carth said he served on it didnt he ?

[DSLuke]

Carth said he served on it didnt he ?

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He did?

Come to think of it he did.....

 

Obviously Bioware made a mess of the ships.

 

But it can't be an ex-republic ship, simply due to the fact that all other ships that came out of the SF were of the same design, which master Vandar or Vrook said was alien

And secondly in the final battle around the SF the republic didn't had a ship similar to the Leviathan.

[Aegis]

...but the rebel ship whre a massive force and they had not a single ship resembling the sith ones

 

Obviously not, since the Sith ships were based on Star Forge technology while the Republic ships were not (in that particular battle). That does not exclude the possibility of the Republic having other capital ships or prototypes of different designs, though. The Leviathan was obviously a unique ship if it was a Republic ship as the databank and Carth indicates, so it's not surprising you wouldn't see a whole bunch of ships like it in the Republic fleet.

 

we are speaking about battleships not knives... there are not operative galleons and wind powered frigates in the US navy for example.

 

No, but there are ships with a variety of armor, size, speed, firepower and various additional equipment and functions. Just because something is more advanced than something else, it doesn't automatically mean that it'll replace the old technology as long as it still has a niche to fill.

 

also the Rakatan technology is quite superior to the republic one.

The starforge can produce an endless fleet, the starmap where destroyed but they rebuilt themselves in some millenia, the field that surrond the unknow planet can destroy all the republic fleet, the prison cube is way better and safer than a containment field...

 

That still does not say anything about the ships. Just because they can produce good stuff, it doesn't mean they always will, and just because some technology is advanced, it doesn't mean all of it is. The Star Forge is not magical, it abides the same laws of cost-efficiency as everything else, it's just a cost of a different type. You don't use a shotgun to kill a fly. Judging from the story in KotOR1, the people who built the Star Forge had no need to develop weapons as there were no enemies who opposed them. All military development is a result of previous military development, it's as simple as that. Take crossbows, for example. Bows were working just fine until the heavy cavalry started using platemail. Bows were made stronger, armor made thicker and eventually the crossbow was invented (a weapon so efficienct that it was declared inhumane by the pope, just in case you're interested). If no one had started wearing armor, we might not even have had anything more advanced in our arsenal than bows and melee weapons. If there is no need to develop it, you won't. Doing so would just be a waste of time and resources.

 

...but still they showed to be way better than any republic fleet design ship.

 

Even assuming that is true (and we're still ignoring the interdiction technology), one alien ship + one former republic ship is still better than just one alien ship.

[Zilod]

......the rebel ship......

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What rebel ship??

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uops :">

ehm republic ship

 

 

adding here.

 

 

is it true that there could be some old upgraded model in various army corps, but this is also generally due to cost and effectiveness, Revan with the starforge had not these problems, as the factory can simply mass produce all that is needed and point just to best effectiveness.

a proof of that is that we don't see any "normal" republic ship design in Revan ships, but only the big curved "sith" ships.

 

 

 

For Rakatan technology consider that it was a race of warriors and conquerers with their own warlords, seem quite normal to me that they developed powerfull weapons and during the end of the infinite empire they where also facing revolts from the race they enslaved.

[Thomas]

I always thought,

 

The Leviathen was a republic ship. Once Saul Karath diffected to Reven/Malak they used the Star Forge to 'mass produce' it. I imagine the Sith quickly hit the Republic ship yards so they were unable to build more [Leviathan class]. Also without the resources of the outer worlds it seems likley that the Republic had to rationalise and produce 'lesser' vessels, ie. the 'Endor Spire' class.

 

Of course we have some contradiction here,

 

KOTOR tells us that the Leviathan was a 'Republic' ship, however it also tells us that it is of 'Alien design'. Maybe the Star Forge was used to make some improvments? Or maybe it was 'Aliens' ie. non humans, within the Republic that designed it. The Republic comprised numerous non human groups, so maybe it was made by them for Republic service?

 

The Star Wars Databank is quite clear in stating that the Leviathan was a Republic vessel.

 

Of course its all just speculation.

[DSLuke]

It seems to me that someone over Bioware really messed things up.

 

It's kinda funny though after all the bashing Obsidian has received for continuity errors.

[tu2thepoo]

All I want to know is why the Ravager is constantly referred to as a Sith ship. Weren't the only ships at the battle of Malachor V of Republic and Mandalorian design?

 

Assuming they're only calling the Ravager a sith warship because it's Nihilous's new ship, I think it's safe to assume that the Ravager was part of the Republic battlefleet under command of the Exile. Seems reasonable to me that Revan could've taken the basic Ravager design, enhanced it with Star Forge technology, and that's how the Leviathan was born.

 

I don't ever remember Carth saying he served on the Leviathan; only that he recognized it as Saul Karath's ship. Could be that since Saul razed Telos, Carth recognizes the Sith warship that destroyed his homeworld, not that it was Saul's ship while he was still a Republic officer.

[Drakron]

http://www.lucasarts.com/products/swkotor/G_characters.html

 

As for the Revenger ... I dont care enough due to its ISD wannabe design to look for a anwer, the mandalorians says it bears the marks of mandalorian weapons and it was scarvanged at Malachor V.

 

Think whatever you want from that.

[DSLuke]

maybe Carth was on Leviathan when Telos was destroyed.

[Aegis]

is it true that there could be some old upgraded model in various army corps, but this is also generally due to cost and effectiveness, Revan with the starforge had not these problems, as the factory can simply mass produce all that is needed and point just to best effectiveness.

 

The Star Forge must've had some limitation. If it didn't, Revan would've had it produce a fleet big enough to crush the republic, end of story. Either the Star Forge's resources are not as endless as you may think (it's not endless, I might add), or it couldn't produce ships very fast. In any case, you'll still end up with more people to crew ships than ships themselves, meaning it'd be stupid not to crew outdated ships as well as the newer ones (especially one such as the Leviathan that was top-tier republic technology by its own right, not to forget the interdiction capability).

 

For Rakatan technology consider that it was a race of warriors and conquerers with their own warlords, seem quite normal to me that they developed powerfull weapons and during the end of the infinite empire they where also facing revolts from the race they enslaved.

 

Not beyond a certain point. You develop weapons to counter an opponents developments. If your technology is the best, you don't need more unless there are other niches you may want to fill (and making better ships that fill the same function as a previous one is not an example of that). Basically, all you'll end up with if you do that is weapons that drains more resources for the same job. To use the shotgun and fly analogy from before; what is the most efficient thing to do if you want to kill flies? Roll up a million newspapers or make one shotgun? Anything beyond a rolled up newspaper is just overkill and a waste of resources and efficiency.

As for revolts, you have to remember that more advanced technology does not always give you an advantage. The people revolting will have access to the same technology as you do. If they don't, all you need is technology that is good enough and the republic technology is more than capable of dealing with revolts from entire planets.

[Drakron]

maybe Carth was on Leviathan when Telos was destroyed.

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And Saul was kind enough to supply him with means of transportation of the ship after he was done with his homeworld.

 

[DSLuke]

maybe Carth was on Leviathan when Telos was destroyed.

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And Saul was kind enough to supply him with means of transportation of the ship after he was done with his homeworld.

 

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He could have used an escape pod.

[Drakron]

He could have used an escape pod.

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And people could use their ...

 

Come on, the Star Forge was a mass factory and are you REALLY going to tell me that Revan/Star Forge robes we get in the game (that ARE done by the Star Forge) are originaly a Rakata design?

 

Because it deep down shows the Star Forge was capable of making ANYTHING as long it had the blueprints for it, from robes to a starship.

[DSLuke]

Even so the blueprint of the Leviathan is of alien design.

[tu2thepoo]

The Star Forge must've had some limitation. If it didn't, Revan would've had it produce a fleet big enough to crush the republic, end of story. Either the Star Forge's resources are not as endless as you may think (it's not endless, I might add), or it couldn't produce ships very fast. In any case, you'll still end up with more people to crew ships than ships themselves, meaning it'd be stupid not to crew outdated ships as well as the newer ones (especially one such as the Leviathan that was top-tier republic technology by its own right, not to forget the interdiction capability).

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The star forge drew its raw material from the Rakatan sun, if I remember the end of the game correctly (I'm not even going to try and figure out the alchemy involved ). Judging from the dialogue throughout the game, it had an effectively endless supply of resources so long as it was active and drawing material from the sun. Could be that most of its production was geared towards making Sith starfighters, in which case your point still holds - they wouldn't have enough capital ships being produced and would need to bolster their fleet with Republic warships.

 

Anyway, since I read through the game's official site again (thanks Drakron), I don't know what to make of the whole Ravager/Leviathan similarity. If the Leviathan was a unique/new Republic interdictor design... I dunno, maybe the Ravager was a precursor (and that's why it doesn't look so streamlined).

[Drakron]

Even so the blueprint of the Leviathan is of alien design.

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Were that damn Orbital Ion Cannon when we need it ...