ATTN Obsidian: Forum Shut Down

[Zero327]

To disband the only "line" of technical support available for a bugged new release game is plain irresponsible. I also find it convenient that a patch was announced two weeks ago, and has yet to be presented, but this shutdown announcement is heard and made loud and clear...

 

If this technical forum is shut down without a release, or even attempted release in good faith to the customers of Obsidian, without a patch or rectification for the current situation, I will be reporting this incident to the Better Business Bureau.

 

I don't mind waiting for a patch. As a consumer I accept certain things when purchasing a product. But I will not be ignored with a legitimate concern, be told that it will be addressed, and then have all lines of communication cut off so that Obsidian Entertainment holds no copability or accountability. And to do this with a Star Wars title is just beyond contempt. Fix your errors first Obsidian, then remove your contact information. Not all of the consumers waiting for this patch are children...

[Leferd]

Oh puhleaze.

 

Check the back of your manual. This isn't even the official K2 website, let alone technical support forum.

[Master_Vandar73]

This is the site of the developers, and as such, this forum is one of the only avenues of communication we've been given. I think zero327 is RIGHT that something needs to be done on our behalf, but I think the Better Business Bureau is too weak an organization to respond to this huge problem. If a proper response doesn't appear from Obsidian, it might be time for something much stronger- such as a class action lawsuit on behalf of everyone who spent so much hard- earned money on their incomplete product. If they sold a game which will not run for most people, and have no intentions of fixing it, I call that fraud. If they truly don't care about their customers or product, its time to hit them in the only place they understand, the wallet. That's exactly where they got us. And that's unbelievable- how much money did Lucas give you guys to make this game? and you can't take the time or expense to put someone on the forums? Now I'm Really outraged. I for one will Never Trust Obsidian ever again on any product, and I urge you to do the same.

 

 

Maybe we should start an NTO campaign and website- Never Trust Obsidian

[Leferd]

You sir are misin...nay, uninformed.

 

If you were to make a formal complaint, then it would be advisable that you atleast make some effort at a little bit of research.

 

Research about what? Well, that's for you to make. They are your complaints after all....

[MaglorD]

Let's not get hysterical.

 

Is the game really so buggy compared to other titles that it warrants this kind of action? IMO, it's no more buggier than KOTOR 1 or Neverwinter Nights at release.

 

Sure there are people who have experienced game-stopping bugs, but I'm not sure the problem is that widespread.

 

While I cannot speak for everyone else, I myself have only experienced a few minor bugs such as the rare CTD, slight choppiness, black screen, invisible enemies, which do not detract from gameplay. The patch they have announced should take care of these in due course.

 

Having said that, I do agree it's lamentable that companies release buggy games. But Oblivion/Lucascarts are no more guiltier of this than many other developers/publishers out there.

[Sloth]

This is the site of the developers, and as such, this forum is one of the only avenues of communication we've been given.  I think zero327 is RIGHT that something needs to be done on our behalf, but I think the Better Business Bureau is too weak an organization to respond to this huge problem. If a proper response doesn't appear from Obsidian, it might be time for something much stronger- such as a class action lawsuit on behalf of everyone who spent so much hard- earned money on their incomplete product. If they sold  a game which will not run for most people, and have no intentions of fixing it, I call that fraud. If they truly don't care about their customers or product, its time to hit them in the only place they understand, the wallet.  That's exactly where they got us.  And that's unbelievable- how much money did Lucas give you guys to make this game? and you can't take the time or expense to put someone on the forums? Now I'm Really outraged.  I for one will Never Trust Obsidian ever again on any product, and I urge you to do the same.

 

 

Maybe we should start an NTO campaign and website- Never Trust Obsidian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think that the game will not run for most (>50%) people. You probably get a pretty bias picture of the percentage of people having trouble with the game from reading at a technical support forum.

[Master_Vandar73]

Let's not get hysterical.

 

Is the game really so buggy compared to other titles that it warrants this kind of action? IMO, it's no more buggier than KOTOR 1 or Neverwinter Nights at release.

 

Sure there are people who have experienced game-stopping bugs, but I'm not sure the problem is that widespread.

 

While I cannot speak for everyone else, I myself have only experienced a few minor bugs such as the rare CTD, slight choppiness, black screen, invisible enemies, which do not detract from gameplay. The patch they have announced should take care of these in due course.

 

Having said that, I do agree it's lamentable that companies release buggy games. But Oblivion/Lucascarts are no more guiltier of this than many other developers/publishers out there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats just the opinion of someone who can actually get the game to install or run.

Oh and BTW I had hell getting NWN to play! Just another glorious example of Obsidians great programing.

 

As always "NTO"

[Leferd]

Here, this may help:

 

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

 

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/592/592496p3.html

 

That's just a start. The columns do a decent job at summarizing some of the problems that are plaguing us consumers. --with regards to this particular genre in general and specifically with this game.

 

Now this doesn't necessarily address the issues with regards to your technical problems, but it does give you a clearer picture of who to contact with regards to complaints about said technical issues.

 

p.s.

 

"Thats just the opinion of someone who can actually get the game to install or run.

Oh and BTW I had hell getting NWN to play! Just another glorious example of Obsidians great programing.

 

As always "NTO" "

 

Obsidian had nothing to do with NWN. See my previous comment about researching your complaints.

[Azure_One]

Thats just the opinion of someone who can actually get the game to install or run.

Oh and BTW I had hell getting NWN to play! Just another glorious example of Obsidians great programing.

 

As always "NTO"

 

So now Obsidian is responsible for imperfect programming everywhere in the world? You sure are building a strong case there. I can't wait till you guys suing them for the hack job they did on Windows ME, when they were bound by contract to give you perfection in digital form.

 

Right, anyways, this doesn't seem to have gotten through yet, so it seems useful to repeat it: These aren't the official boards for KotOR2. It doesn't matter what you consider them to be (I mean, I could consider you an Obsidian employee because you're posting on these boards and harass you for it), the ones hosted by Lucasarts is where you should get tech support.

 

And that's unbelievable- how much money did Lucas give you guys to make this game? and you can't take the time or expense to put someone on the forums? Now I'm Really outraged.

 

They got money to make a game for Lucasarts. Not to hire support staff for something that is of absolutely no use to LA and even a bit of a bother sometimes.

 

Not all of the consumers waiting for this patch are children...

 

Doesn't seem to prevent them from acting like ones.

[Ferrit]

It's called 'getting people off our backs'.

[Mark Havel]

I've never seen so much ridiculous. Obsidian would certaintly made a finished and polished game. But LucasArts is the publisher and they set up a foolish one year developpement milestone, plus two months for a PC version. Anyway, it's Lucas Arts who made support, own the rights on the game and all this legal concerns. If you want to sue somebody, sue Lucas Arts (and it'll never work, you've accepted the licence saying something like "in our great kindness, we autorise the buyer of our game to play it without any warranty it'll work and go to hell if not") not Obsidian. I think these forums will be closed because of people like you.

You don't even need to sue anybody to hurt them, a reputation ala Troika will do the same job if they don't correct the bugs...

[drowninginjello]

The original poster didn't appear to be threatening a lawsuit because the game was poorly made.

 

If I interpret correctly, the original poster is stating that while LA is the company behind star wars, Obsidian is responsible for the design end of the game. And with Obsidian stating they will close the forums because of negativity, I absolutely agree with the poster.

 

When a developer creates something, the developer does have a certain amount of responsibility to the customer or EU (end user) for making certain that the software is fixed. If the issues are matching across sevral customers machines, the issue may be a setting on the customer/EU system. Or it could be a patch is needed.

 

Whichever it is, closing the forums because of customers who paid for a working product are upset that there aren't enough updates on a patch release shows a great deal of irresponsibility and carelessness on Obsidian's part, as well as a lack of respect for it's customers.

 

Good customer service means listening to the customer even when they are upset and trying to resolve the issue or at least soothe the customer into being patient. Telling the customer who bought a product you designed that you don't want to hear their complaints and don't really care about what they think of the product shows great irresponsibility.

 

Example: Let's say I own 'Y Company', and I make a product that will be popular. For this example, we'll call my product 'the amazing dynamic z product'. I release the product and soon after receive complaints that, let's say, it has started to remove the tips of customers fingers. Obvious design flaw. So I have my support and company numbers changed or disconnected due to the large volume of complaints pouring in. Of course a customer will sue me. I neglected to work with the customer to resolve the issue, which would be to replace the fingertips and the products.

 

I would encourage Obsidian to continue to keep the channels open with the customers and be in open communication with the customers.

 

An open and lasting relationship where developer listens to the customer even when the customer is complaining makes for a better relationship.

 

And should Obsidian close the forums, I for one will not purchase another Obsidian product. I support companies that stand behind their product and work to resolve issues with the customers, not against them.

 

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"And with Obsidian stating they will close the forums because of negativity regarding the bugs in their software, I absolutely agree with the poster."

 

Except they've stated no such thing, so I guess I'm free to call you stupid, stupid.

[Azure_One]

Lucasarts owns Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. They were the ones who sold it to you.

 

Who should provide official tech support and where isn't up for discussion. Lucasarts does, on their own site, and whatever assistance we get here (apart from the patches, which LA commissions the Obsidian team to do) is a bonus effort on their part. You cannot sue them for not doing Lucasarts' part of their contract for them well enough. You cannot sue them for suspending their forums (not all communications, mind you), because you are in no way entitled to them.

 

The forums will be taken down and then either brought back or not. I hope they will be because I enjoy hearing from Obsidian in more personal ways than grandiose press releases. Not because otherwise I wouldn't get tech support.

[Master Dahvernas]

The big loophole with most EULA (End User Licence Agreements) is that the burden of proof is always on the buyer and not the producer (in no uncertain terms).

 

The producer is protected in that depending on the Country, State, Province et al. if the producer can prove that their product... In this case, software... Works on over 50% of the hardware it is designed for and causes no bodily harm (monitors don't explode; CPU don't burn up and start fires) then they are actually fulfiling their part of the buyer/seller contract because the software (game) DOES in fact work... It just doesn't work very well.

 

For example, Obsidian can take four computers, two Pentiums with Nvidia graphics cards and two with AMDs with ATI cards (or vice versa) and if it manages to work on three out of the four (<50%) of the machines then it satisfies this loophole and they can't be sued. It doesn't matter if they are getting 2 FPS on the AIT cards and 100 FPS on the Nvidia cards. That's not the purpose of the test. The purpose is that it works on over %50 of the test samples hardware. Period.

 

And a company can actually use that small a sample (only four computers) in arbitration/legal hearing to prove it.

 

This is why you're never going to see software manufactuers held accountable for anything they sell unless it just does not work for a majority of people and or it causes some kind of bodily harm or other harm (like HD data corruption and loss) AND can be PROVED -- Again, key loophole feature.

[airic]

I also don't recall seeing anywhere on the package or EUL Agreement about obsidians forums being included in the deal. Heck I didn't even know Obsidian had forums until I came to their site. As long as this first patch comes out I'll be happy with or without these forums.

 

"Yes the world will end but not tomorrow, get over it."

[drowninginjello]

"And with Obsidian stating they will close the forums because of negativity regarding the bugs in their software, I absolutely agree with the poster."

 

Except they've stated no such thing, so I guess I'm free to call you stupid, stupid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Nope. It was a simple misinterpretation on my part.

 

Much like if I were to say to you, "so I guess I'm free to call you valea, skimiomita"

 

What would be your interpretation? :D

 

That's fantastic news! I can make a product that performs poorly and cuts the tips of fingers and not be held responsible as long as I make an EULA! LOL!

 

I'm going to get right to work on it! Heheh! (w00t)

 

[alanschu]

Good to see people haven't gotten any smarter while I was away.

 

 

Where should I begin? I guess I'll start at the beginning

 

 

I also find it convenient that a patch was announced two weeks ago, and has yet to be presented, but this shutdown announcement is heard and made loud and clear...

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. It sounds like you are trying to twist the situation that they are somehow not working on a patch, or feel that announcing a potential shutdown of the forums as more important than the patch.

 

Except that a patch annoucement is in big, bold letters on the Company's homepage. So what's so "convenient" about it.

 

 

If this technical forum is shut down without a release, or even attempted release in good faith to the customers of Obsidian, without a patch or rectification for the current situation, I will be reporting this incident to the Better Business Bureau

 

??? Seriously. What are you talking about here? Shutting down the forum (which as others have pointed out, is not officially related to the game you purchased), has no bearing on the patch. It's not like they are closing up shop and just ignoring everyone because they are elitists that don't care what people think.

 

And that's just post 1! On to Master Vandar73's post:

 

If they sold a game which will not run for most people and have no intentions of fixing it, I call that fraud.

 

Fortunately, they didn't sell a game that does not run for most people, so I don't see how this is relevant.

 

And it doesn't matter what you call it, since the situation you described is not the situation you are in. There is a big giant comment on the company homepage about a patch announcement. Closing down the forums does NOT imply that they have no intentions of fixing it. So sure, you described fraud, but neither Lucasarts nor Obsidian Entertainment have engaged in either point you mention as being "fraud."

 

As for Master Vandar73's second post, check this out:

 

Thats just the opinion of someone who can actually get the game to install or run.

Oh and BTW I had hell getting NWN to play! Just another glorious example of Obsidians great programing.

 

As always "NTO"

 

First off, your first sentence is irrelevant. Yes it's the opinion of someone that can actually get the game to install or run. But so can many, MANY other people.

 

But the real kicker is YOU holding Obsidian responsible for NWN not installing on your system, when the game was not even made by Obsidian. You might as well re-register under a new nickname, because when you go around trashing a company based on stupid statements like the one you just made which is actually not in anyway true, I don't blame Obsidian for wanting to close the forums.

 

In case I wasn't 100% clear though, Obsidian DID NOT make NWN. Bioware did. Furthermore, if you couldn't get NWN to install on your computer either, then maybe the problem is not with "buggy" games, but your computer. Quit making crap up about the company just so you can slag on them more.

 

Fortunately, the rest of the thread isn't quite so asinine as these two geniuses.

 

And with Obsidian stating they will close the forums because of negativity

 

I think they are considering closing the forums because they are getting out of control. There is no moderation going on, and with geniuses like Master Vander73 running around, stupid crap is flying around like mad.

 

Any forum is reflective of the company that controls it. If Obsidian continues to let the forum degrade into the cesspool it is becoming, then it would be unprofessional to let it continue down its current path.

 

Additionally, the lack of moderation also means that he's gonna get spammed with more e-mails. He's busy enough as it is, not considering he just had his second chile, and the fact that things are getting out of control is resulting in unnecessary e-mails to staff members.

 

 

Whichever it is, closing the forums because of customers who paid for a working product are upset that there aren't enough updates on a patch release shows a great deal of irresponsibility and carelessness on Obsidian's part, as well as a lack of respect for it's customers.

 

Good customer service means listening to the customer even when they are upset and trying to resolve the issue or at least soothe the customer into being patient. Telling the customer who bought a product you designed that you don't want to hear their complaints and don't really care about what they think of the product shows great irresponsibility.

 

The announcement is not just for the KOTOR 2 forums though. As I said, the forum reflects on them as a company. It's just as unprofessional to allow trollers that do not contribute to discussions (which is the point Feargus brought up...not that they wanted to avoid people that were having problems with KOTOR 2), to run rampant on their forums, disrupting any hope of meaningful discussion.

 

So I have my support and company numbers changed or disconnected due to the large volume of complaints pouring in. Of course a customer will sue me. I neglected to work with the customer to resolve the issue, which would be to replace the fingertips and the products.

 

Which is NOT what they are doing.

[Judge Hades]

Never trust Obsidian? Sorry, but Obsidian is one game developer I do trust. I do not trust Ubisoft, Bioware, Troika, Interplay, Origin, EA, Atari, Bethesda, and so forth and so on.

[alanschu]

But Hades....what about their horrible track record after NWN?

 

Glad to see nothing has changed while I was away. Still holding Fallout as the RPG to beat?

[adrich81]

People, this isn't the best way to persuade them to keep the forums open. The fact is that there is a lot of cumulative expertise here that comes from sharing solutions we've to problems, which would be lost if the forum closed. I know that I for one won't post over at the LucasArts forums as I object to providing unpaid technical support for them.

[Zero327]

Well it seems that everyone and their mother seems to have their Juris Doctorate in Corporate Law. That aside, this post wasn't intended for general opinions or vague interpretations. This is meant to be read by a member of the Obsidian corporation, and nothing further.

 

--Princess Chibi

[Sorall Loskannen]

I think that one thing people should remember, is that Obsidian is looking into the possibility of getting a "community manager" (see closure announcement). They don't want to upset their customers, but there are always more complicated issues than what we (people very far away, and unaware of the specific situation within the company) can see from our spot in front of our computers. I doubt that the developers had any intention of causing problems for Kotor 2 players. I am cynical about people, but I'm not that cynical, especially when you take into account that as a video game developer, Obsidian requires gamers to support them.

 

I think the biggest problem they are having is simply the constant inflow of pointless complaints, such as "I hate this game," or "Obsidian sucks," and other such nonsense that "disrupt discussion" (see closure announcement). If people want to complain about the game, then make your own forum and complain there.

 

Obsidian, before the forum is closed, and if anyone reads this by then, I want to say something specifically to the developers of KotOR 2. I think you did a great job with the game. The story is great, and the gameplay is great. I have had some problems with the game, but nothing that made it unplayable, and nothing that I couldn't fix myself with a quick reload. Anyway, I enjoy KotOR 2 very much, and am greatful for the effort put into the game thus far. If KotOR 3 comes to fruition, and you are the developers, I will buy it.

[Prospero424]

I too feel that Obsidian did an abolutely amazing job with this game in the short time they had to develop and release it. I've enjoyed the game so far, but I am waiting to play any further until a patch is released. Yes, it upsets me that I am forced to wait to use a product that should have worked right out of the box, but no amount of simple complaining is going to change the situation.

 

That being said, I think the closure of this forum would be the absolute worst possible solution for all parties involved. It would result in a compounding of the already negative press that Obsidian is receiving due to KOTOR IIs bugs (rightly on wrongly, that's irrelevant), it would cut off an aveneue of information that the developers can receive directly from the end user (for free, I might add), and it would remove a valuable source of information and help from the customer. All VERY bad ideas.

 

I understand how frustrating this may very well be for everyone at Obsidian; lack of oversight on forums like these certainly can affect their usefullness and value for all involved. But even without a community manager, they're better than nothing. I fail to see how shutting them down helps ANYBODY, most of all Obsidian and their fine team.

 

Please keep them open. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. Trust me, it hurts.

[Master_Vandar73]

Ok I retract the NWN comment- I was upset at the time and was thinking of the up and comming NWN project being developed by Obsidian.

And as for the law suit comment it was a suggestion to zero327, stating he would have better luck with the lawsuit if he wanted resolution. the Better Buisness Bureau has been known in the past to only take the complaint and take no action.

(about like us asking for help from obsidian)

Still as always NTO