taks Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hold a sec. If scientist have come to the conclusion that matter is 'invincible' could that also be saying that they dont know HOW creat or destroy matter? And cant matter be destryed by meeting its anti matter? i think the point is that you've tried to make a logical argument based on an unprovable set of assumptions, namely the concepts that matter must have a beginning and an end. we don't know that for sure, and scientfically, those assumptions are untrue. the only legtimacy such an argument holds in one in which you start out with the answer you're trying to seek. unknowingly circular at best, disingenuous for sure, and a flat out lie at worst. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 oh, btw, matter is not really destroyed by meeting anti-matter. theory holds that it is simply converted to pure energy actually. i can't comment on whether this has ever been witnessed. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother None Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 There exists nothing beyond your imagination. Nothing exists (in YOUR universe!) but 'that' of which you are aware. To argue who's 'universe' is more 'real' is foolishness, and demon-strates a lack of 'self'-awareness. All are equal as all are 'one'. One man's wisdom is as foolishness to another. Does this include your theory? You just pwned yourself inXile line producer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craftsman Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I just find it hard to believe that the universe was created with so perfection and it all happened by chance. Common people. When you make something you dont just randomly stick things together and hope it will work. You DESIGN it. Now you will say 'it happen by chance over BILLIONS of years' but if this is true then why did this experimentation stop at this state of perfection. Did matter just say to itself "ok guys we got it right this time". God must be the intellignet being behind creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I just find it hard to believe that the universe was created with so perfection and it all happened by chance. Common people. When you make something you dont just randomly stick things together and hope it will work. You DESIGN it. How does that explain Interplay and Fo:BoS then ??? Yes, completely way off topic, just couldn't resist that one. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I just find it hard to believe that the universe was created with so perfection and it all happened by chance. Common people. When you make something you dont just randomly stick things together and hope it will work. You DESIGN it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I just find it hard to believe that the universe was created with so perfection and it all happened by chance. good point, but "find it hard to believe" does not equal proof. another logical fallacy. you're also assuming (again) that the universe is perfect. by what measure? in actuality, the universe is tending towards an ever increasing level of chaos... perfect imperfection, perhaps. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@\NightandtheShape/@ Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Monotheists are quite amusing.... "I'm a programmer at a games company... REET GOOD!" - Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@\NightandtheShape/@ Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 God and only God decides a persons fate. Whatever happend to free will..... "I'm a programmer at a games company... REET GOOD!" - Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Monotheists are quite amusing.... There aren't any monotheists in this thread, so your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Christianity is Polytheist right? You're just only allowed to worship one god? Anyhow, I think I am somewhere between a theist and an agnostic. One just needs to redefine the word deity to fit a more modern society. Whats interesting is how a lot of people try to tackle metaphyics without even understanding the nature of their own reality. Take Anselm, brilliant thinker, but lacked knowledge, which could detroy is arguments in a New York minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I just find it hard to believe that the universe was created with so perfection and it all happened by chance. Common people. When you make something you dont just randomly stick things together and hope it will work. You DESIGN it. I am following my fish. A temporary home for stranded ML'ers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 And generally, we're also asked to accept that it's the god of Christianity and not any of thousands of other gods or goddesses who have been worshipped throughout history. That's pretty much one of my fondest arguments to use when I'm approached by evangelicals: "We're both atheists, sir/madam; I simply choose to believe in one god fewer than you do" At worst it devolves into an argument, at best I get them to shut up and to question their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 christians are monotheist, they just dance around the definition of what it means to worship "other" gods... i.e. the father, son and holy ghost are all the same... the angels aren't "gods" just real powerful otherworldly beings, satan was cast down so he no longer has any real power... etc. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 christians are monotheist, they just dance around the definition of what it means to worship "other" gods... i.e. the father, son and holy ghost are all the same... the angels aren't "gods" just real powerful otherworldly beings, satan was cast down so he no longer has any real power... etc. taks Oh, I thought it had a more historical reason. For instance, the jews, which were in Egypt, were exposed to other gods. However, it would be a sin to worship that god. I guess its all semantics really, because the GOD, would claim be the only god. I understand the way the church handles all their entities. But Christianity is a religion based on Jesus, and only historically on God, right? Where Jesus is a divine and human prophet of sorts, which added the more important half to the bible, at least to christians. And I guess if you are islam, then Jesus was just another prophet to the same god, which predates THE PROPHET, which arrived sometime in the 8th century. OK I am rambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Well, you really can't say what's most important to Christians simply because Christianity, like every other large Church, Hell, like every other large movement, has divided into several smaller groups. These groups ostensibly share one common characteristic which is the deification of Jesus Christ. However, even the way in which many of the groups approach this deification is different. For this reason alone, I would only use Christians as a broad grouping and then get into specifics for each church thereafter. For instance, The Trinity, Saints, Angels, and Lucifer are characteristics of Roman Catholic belief. However, I wouldn't want to slight other groups by saying that these are common to every Christian religion because the emphasis (or even core belief) varies between churches. Views on any number of things, homosexuality being one such thing, are likely to be quite different from one religion to another. However, views on any number of things are likely to be different from one person to another. In some Christian churches, homosexuality is more or less either completely ignored or condoned. Even people who share in a particular faith might have disparate views. For instance, I think homosexuality is essentially a poor yardstick by which to judge another human being. My church (Roman Catholic) has a stance, but I do not necessarily adhere to that particular teaching. On the other hand, I am a loyal Catholic in virtually every other respect. I suppose that you could turn that argument around, then, and say the same thing. If you think religious belief is misguided, fine. ...But I'll agree not to prejudge you if you promise not to prejudge me. As I understand it, that's the point of the originating post. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegeri Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Mono=One or singular Poly=Multiple or many. So Christianity is a monotheastic religion as it only has one god. Boss: You're fired. Me: Ummm will you let me have my job if I dance for you? Boss: No, I don't think so- Me: JUST LET ME DANCE *Dances* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 that wasn't the confusion i don't think, aegeri... depending on your viewpoint, christians have multiple gods akin to the greek/roman system. they put "god" up on top and then have several lesser "gods" below. they just prefer to call them saints, angels, jesus, etc. not really much different than having zeus, athena, aries, etc... christianity just doesn't refer to the lesser folk as gods. semantics, really. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegeri Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 No, there IS only one God in Christianity. That is kind of the entire point. The other things are NOT Gods, and when even the bible expressly points out there is only one God (The God in the bible), it would be silly to think there are multiple Gods in the Christian mythology. However, in say, the Greek or Egyptian mythologies, there are multiple gods, hence they are polytheistic. So they have a God of Death, Love bla bla. Boss: You're fired. Me: Ummm will you let me have my job if I dance for you? Boss: No, I don't think so- Me: JUST LET ME DANCE *Dances* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Okay, if we get away from the argument aspect, I'd like to clarify something as a staple of what Christians believe if I could be so bold as to try to explain something for a huge group of folks. Still, this is generally true for all mainstream Christian religions. The trinity is considered one being. That's axiomatic. If you don't like it, then we'll shake hands and go back to square one. If you accept that this is a staple of most Christian beliefs, then there's no issue about Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. They're all one person. In Christian thought, all divine power comes from the Trinity. Saints don't cause things to happen. Saints pray on your behalf to the Trinity. (I'm playing a little loose with the Trinity idea, but thousands of pages of Christian theology, mot of which I don't really understand perfectly anyhow, won't be summed up in a single post.) Saints, like the Virgin Mary are venerated in a somewhat historical sense, but they are not the focus of worship. Saints are not considered gods. They don't serve the same functions as the Greek pantheon. The closest thing you can say is that saints don't hesitate to ascend into heaven when they die. That's not a function of godhood. It's a function of goodhood. Anyhow, none of you guys have hit on the really weird beliefs. Here's one that I think most folks will believe is weird. Roman Catholics used to sell indulgences, right? It's a past thing and indulgences don't exist anymore, right? Well, that's not exactly true. According to current Catholic belief, Saints, those folks who go to heaven right away... they have a goodness surplus. That means that they're a sort of net goodness positive that's left behind for the rest of us sinning clods. The church, as God's caretaker on Earth, still dispenses that surplus goodness. I'll be disappointed if I don't catch some (hopefully) good-natured ribbing from some of you heathens over that one. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 However, in say, the Greek or Egyptian mythologies, there are multiple gods, hence they are polytheistic. So they have a God of Death, Love bla bla. Yeah, but the whole "you should only worship me", came from the exodus of Egypt, an obviously polytheistic state. Which, indicates the acceptance of other gods, you're just not allowed to worship them. Hence, I don't know if Christianity, obviously based off of judaism, was originally monotheistic, or if that was one of the things latered tacked on by the Europeans, or romans, which were also even after Constanstine polytheistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I just find it hard to believe that the universe was created with so perfection and it all happened by chance. Common people. When you make something you dont just randomly stick things together and hope it will work. You DESIGN it. Now you will say 'it happen by chance over BILLIONS of years' but if this is true then why did this experimentation stop at this state of perfection. Did matter just say to itself "ok guys we got it right this time". God must be the intellignet being behind creation. It wasnt it's just had a LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG time to work on things. So even if the chance of intellegent life is 0.00000000000000000000001 (made up number of course) the only factor will be how long that takes. As long as the chance isnt absolutely zero then any odds will come true given enough time. It's evolution on a larger scale. Unless of course you believe that the world is only 10,000 or so years old Over time god has been credited with a lot of stuff that science later disproved. Heck in the old days even curing the sick was seen as interfering with gods purpose. And if you think this is perfection you have a very odd definition of the word is all I can say. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Christianity has this One God, Many faces routine going. Kind of like Hinduism, but they limited it to only 3 instead of the thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevan Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 I think it's been explained enough already, but in case it didn't sink in, or if it needs strengthening, I'll leave this thought. I think I posted it earlier, but it might have been erased when the backup kicked in, and I'll post it again. Let's say that we hadn't happened, that something went different way back, and humans never evolved. Would we be around to look back and talk about the impossibility of us ever happening? Now, that's probably got large holes in it, and it requires that you accept evolution, but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 Let's say that we hadn't happened, that something went different way back, and humans never evolved. Would we be around to look back and talk about the impossibility of us ever happening? Now, that's probably got large holes in it, and it requires that you accept evolution, but whatever. Actually it doesn't. And who is saying that evolution doesn't happen. The only wrong with evolution is Darwin's flawed theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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