More religious bone-headedness

[Ronald]

The voices, they're everywhere, they won't shut up!

 

In any case, if he was replying to Kharn, he just basically said "lol ur ignorance astounds me" again -- ergo, proving Kharn right, again.

[Chile]

IMHO,

 

There is no need to dispute what science proves or disproves. If science can only say that, within the parameters we understand, that the existence of God is not true, then there is always a possibility that the existence of God (or someone/thing along those lines) is true.

 

 

So, maybe I see the hand of God at work where others don't. Heck, maybe I've experienced the work of those hands myself. I feel secure enough in my own abilities to know that where I might believe an occurance in my life is the work of God, another might see it only as a coincidence. However, even the coincidences, if we suppose them to be coincidences, of my life are recieved from others, or

personally, through a series of laws that are based on.... you guessed it... the Bible.

 

I read the Bible, and what I read are words passed through many hands of events that probably would have been impossible for a scribe of those days to adequately depict. But, does knowing the stories contained in the Bible were poorly described mean that the messages of the Bible are false? I think not. Rather, I believe there are messages in the Bible to interpret, that every man and woman takes from it what they may, and that those of similar thought gather together within various denominations, etc.

 

Anyway, I do not usually discuss my beliefs on forums. I've written more here than I have anywhere online, really. So, maybe that's a good thing. I don't know.

[Brother None]

In any case, if he was replying to Kharn, he just basically said "lol ur ignorance astounds me" again -- ergo, proving Kharn right, again.

I love it. All this proving me right is a real confidence-booster :D

 

PS: I'm pretty agnostic myself, I'm not sure if a God exists or not. I am pretty sure these moronic arguments that Craftsman keeps posting, based on "facts" or "science", have no validity, whatsoever.

[Crusader]

hmm i think there is no god..oops not supposed to say that....*gets killed by parents* ahh.. and yeah there is a god hopefully he doesn't weld a giant Weapon of destruction

[Craftsman]

Ive been thinking about creation and I came up with this.

 

What has a begining has an End,

What has no begining has no End.

 

Therefore something that has an end (all physical matter) cannot create, but must BE created by something with no Beginning or End.

 

Therefore

 

GOD Exists

[Brother None]

Craftsman, you posted the exact same "thought" (I'd like to point out again at this point that quoting other people doesn't count as independant thought, this includes the bible and other holy books) before, and I replied with this:

 

1)First, the world seems to work according to the universal law of cause and effect. That is, every observable effect must have had an initial "push" by some agent or cause. Every "thing" (a highly scientific term) that we observe is dependent upon other "things" for its existence. For example, children are dependent on parents and the earth is dependent on the sun. Thinking all the way back to the first event, it could be asked, who was the cause? This is where it appears that there must be a being that is "uncaused." Philosophers like to call this a necessary being. Could that be God?

 

Philosophers? Ey?

 

I'd like to inform you of the fact that the philosophical construct of "the Great Mover" was made in a time and area where and when nobody had any form of a monotheistic faith, unless there were some jews hanging around. The Greeks were polytheistic, I'd like to remind you.

 

Also, your thinking has a logical flaw

 

If EVERY event has a cause, which is the assumption that proves your argument, than God also must have a cause. "But," you'll say, "that's not true, because God is eternal"

 

Well then, you just disproved your own theory. If God is eternal, there is something which needs no cause. If it is a fact that there is something that needs no cause than there's no basis to assume that God is the only thing that could be eternal.

 

Or, in other words, the assumption that the galaxy hasn't been around forever collapses in on itself.

 

Ipso factum.

 

The question is very simple: if everything must have a cause, how can there be one thing which needs no cause that causes everything else? Or, if you turn the assumption the other way, if there is something that's been eternal which causes everything else, why would it be "a divine being". Why wouldn't it just be the mass (or energy, wha'ever) of which the universe is made, as in the Big-Bang theory.

 

Now I know you're just going to ignore this post again, but meh, I like talking to myself

 

PS: and before you use such a weak attack, "cause-and-effect" and "end-and-beginning" basically boil down to the same concept; that either the universe has been around forever or something caused it.

[Craftsman]

And you also come down to the same concept. You are too mentally unstable to accept a higher being. If there was a miracle would would say it was trick or pubic stunt. If the masses proclaimed Jesus, you would say they were all brain washed. And when when God himself came down to look you in the eye, guess what you would say?

 

The point is you back your arguments of the failures of man. And becasue you do so you lose end of story. The bible is from God, there fore is true. Sorry tough guy but i liked the way you tried.

[neriana]

Craftsman, can't you even see how totally circular and baseless your "arguments" are?

 

You believe in the Bible. Because it's from God. Because it says it comes from God. Therefore it comes from God. Therefore there is a God because the Bible says there is a God. Nya nya everyone else is an idiot.

 

So I believe in the Vedas. Because they say they are divinely inspired. Therefore they are divinely inspired because the Vedas say so. Everyone who is not a Hindu in MY PARTICULAR WAY is therefore an idiot. Nya nya.

 

Had any good shellfish lately? And how many women do you plan on marrying? How many slaves do you plan on owning? Do you throw rocks at disobedient children?

[Craftsman]

Throw rocks at disobedient children? HAHAH..no. Thats like me saying becasue of your beliefs 'Do you, do you steal, do you kill people? Bad luck but i liked the way you tried. And All your arguments are not circular? You dont have an argument. All your saying is that there is no God and giving more excuse than you could point a stick at.

 

There are TRUTHS that you cannot "prove".

 

There are things that you do not understand.

 

Therefore relpying on YOURSELF to know the truth is bad. This is a perfect example. You are ignorant becasue you rely on WHAT YOU WANT to believe, not whats actually out there.

 

No one is an idiot, God and only God decides a persons fate.

[neriana]

Sigh. I never said there was no God. I DO NOT KNOW IF THERE IS A GOD HIS EXISTENCE CAN BE NEITHER PROVEN NOR DISPROVEN.

 

You have repeatedly said that you believe the Bible comes directly from God. So what, now only some of it comes from God? What gives you the right to decide THAT?

 

At least you've finally admitted that there are things that no one can prove. Now I wonder if you'll stop trying to "prove" those things. Doubt it.

 

You've been calling people "mentally unstable", among other insults, on this thread. And now you say "only God can decide a person's fate".

 

Wait! I get it now! You know there is a God because YOU'RE HIM!!!

[The Situationist]

My IQ has been lowered just by reading this thread.

[Brother None]

And you also come down to the same concept. You are too mentally unstable to accept a higher being. If there was a miracle would would say it was trick or pubic stunt. If the masses proclaimed Jesus, you would say they were all brain washed. And when when God himself came down to look you in the eye, guess what you would say?

 

The point is you back your arguments of the failures of man. And becasue you do so you lose end of story. The bible is from God, there fore is true. Sorry tough guy but i liked the way you tried.

I'm afraid I'm not an atheist, I'm agnostic, pretty much. I, in fact, noted this myself:

 

PS: I'm pretty agnostic myself, I'm not sure if a God exists or not. I am pretty sure these moronic arguments that Craftsman keeps posting, based on "facts" or "science", have no validity, whatsoever.

 

I've seen no definitive proof that God exists, I've seen no definitive proof that God doesn't exist. I, in fact, don't believe in the concept "definitive proof"

 

Here's a little secret, Craftsman: I used to be a Christian, protestant. I was converted when I was 12 or so, and left the faith when I was 16. Why? I believed because I could feel God, as far as I remember, and don't feel him now, so I don't believe.

 

Now back to the original argument. You made a logical structure to support the thesis of there being a divine being who must've started everything. I made the structure collapse on itself. If all you can reply with is "you come down to the same concept", as if that's some kind of insult, and then "you're mentally" unstable, then why do you think people will listen to you. If you can't even take the trouble to try and disprove my arguments with the same logic as you used in your original argument, then why do you think anyone will listen. Or don't you care? Are you just talking to stroke your own little God-based ego?

 

PS: I don't base my argument on the failure of man, my arguments were based on the same lgoic as your argument was, originally, so if me logic-structure is inherently wrong, so is yours, hence disproving yourself again.

 

PPS: "the bible is true because it's from God" is not a valid argument, this has been noted before

[breakdancing negro]

And becasue you do so you lose end of story. The bible is from God, there fore is true. Sorry tough guy but i liked the way you tried.

No s***? So, the following idea is from God and thus must be true?

 

A feast is made for laughter,

and wine makes life merry,

but money is the answer for everything.

 

Wow, how divinely inspired is that?

[Gorth]

A feast is made for laughter,

and wine makes life merry,

but money is the answer for everything.

 

Wow, how divinely inspired is that?

Wow, we need a crusade to enforce that part of the bible

 

Wine, feasts and money for everybody. Who brings the girls :D

 

Edit: Or Donkeys, depending on where you live...

 

B.N. Did you take that out of context ?

[breakdancing negro]

Not really. It's a verse that seems to prattle on about good things/people and bad things/people, with the referenced verse being one of the good things.

 

In context-

16 Woe to you, O land whose king was a servant [1]

and whose princes feast in the morning.

17 Blessed are you, O land whose king is of noble birth

and whose princes eat at a proper time-

for strength and not for drunkenness.

 

18 If a man is lazy, the rafters sag;

if his hands are idle, the house leaks.

 

19 A feast is made for laughter,

and wine makes life merry,

but money is the answer for everything.

 

20 Do not revile the king even in your thoughts,

or curse the rich in your bedroom,

because a bird of the air may carry your words,

and a bird on the wing may report what you say.

[Gorth]

Thanks

 

That verse 20 is a spooky one though, wonder if Orvelle (spelling?) had that one in mind when writing "1984". Big Brother is (still) watching :ph34r:

[neriana]

Just goes to show that the Bible contains plenty of stuff that's not exactly deep. "Lazy is bad." "Drunken princes are bad." "Money buys things." "Whoever wrote this likes to hear himself talk." Duh.

 

One of my favorite parts of the Bible is The Song of Solomon.

[Brother None]

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

[an idiot god]

Kids,

You argue over nothing. (since it is assumed by most that this "GOD" is not a thing, ..Therefore "NOTHING"!!!) "God" exists for those who believe in it. For those who dont, it doesn't.

There exists nothing beyond your imagination. Nothing exists (in YOUR universe!) but 'that' of which you are aware. To argue who's 'universe' is more 'real' is foolishness, and demon-strates a lack of 'self'-awareness.

All are equal as all are 'one'.

One man's wisdom is as foolishness to another.

No right, no wrong.

Just is.

Get used to it!

 

*__- Holy Moly<an_idiot_god@yahoo.com>

[taks]

Ive been thinking about creation and I came up with this.

 

What has a begining has an End,

What has no begining has no End.

 

Therefore something that has an end (all physical matter) cannot create, but must BE created by something with no Beginning or End.

 

Therefore

 

GOD Exists

while this is an excellent philosophical ponderance, it suffers from two errors resulting in a logical fallacy. namely, you make one assumption that is patently false: matter has an end. matter cannot be created nor destroyed. and another that cannot be proven one way or another: it must be created. unprovable with our methods.

 

both of these are suppositions based on your original argument that god exists in the first place. several logical fallcies can probably be applied in this situation; bifurcation, begging the question (circular argument of sorts), and maybe even affirmation of the consequent.

 

this is not some new argument, btw, it is rather common and proven invalid rather often.

 

taks

[taks]

this may also fall under non causa pro causa which is a false cause fallacy, i.e. the argument assumes the cause MUST be something when it has not been proved factually to be the cause.

 

taks

[Craftsman]

Science says that matter cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Meaning matter is immortal? Yet they say matter came from the big bang so it was CREATED.

 

Hold a sec. If scientist have come to the conclusion that matter is 'invincible' could that also be saying that they dont know HOW creat or destroy matter? And cant matter be destryed by meeting its anti matter?

 

Something to think about.

[Craftsman]

Kids,

You argue over nothing. (since it is assumed by most that this "GOD" is not a thing, ..Therefore "NOTHING"!!!) "God" exists for those who believe in it. For those who dont, it doesn't.

There exists nothing beyond your imagination. Nothing exists (in YOUR universe!) but 'that' of which you are aware. To argue who's 'universe' is more 'real' is foolishness, and demon-strates a lack of 'self'-awareness.

All are equal as all are 'one'.

One man's wisdom is as foolishness to another.

No right, no wrong.

Just is.

Get used to it!

 

*__- Holy Moly<an_idiot_god@yahoo.com>

No right or wrong? Meaning theres no good or evil? I dont think so.

[Ronald]

Science says that matter cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Meaning matter is immortal? Yet they say matter came from the big bang so it was CREATED.

No, since all the matter and potential energy was in the alleged thimble-sized particle to begin with, the Big Bang theory does not violate the first law of thermodynamics.

[Ronald]

No right or wrong? Meaning theres no good or evil? I dont think so.

Do you have any examples to back up this assertion?