What Did You Think Of The 4 Jedi Masters?

[Laozi]

The Jedi Order's stance in this game was clearly inspired by the vatican's stance during World War II. It is clever writing, in this respect. But gutsy? I don't think they handled the dantooine scene with the exile in a gutsy way at all.

 

If some members of the jedi order (Kavar, Zez-Kai) realised that they may have been wrong about how they dealt with the exile the first time, well... see what I wrote above and you'll understand how I feel. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You either need to read more about the vatican or more replay the game, if that is what you call clarity.

[KingofThieves]

No, I think I'm right on, Laozi. :cool:

 

I said it was an influence, remember. It's not a direct copy of the situation, by any means. But there are some similarities, don't you think?

[captivus]

--------------------------off topic -----------------------------

 

I think that the Church never said anything bad about Hitler and Mussolini before and during the war (out of fear) - and now they can't - because decisions of pope (even a dead one) cannot be changed or argued (they are considered to be "always right" or something like that)

[Laozi]

What resources exactly would the vatican have to contribute to the war? Van Helsing? Are bishops the "Protectors of the Allies". Inaction seems to be the only similarity, and the Vatican chose to turn a blind eye and might have helped Nazis escape to South America. I fail to see how this paralles anything in Star Wars.

[captivus]

...and the Vatican chose to turn a blind eye..

 

That's what I'm talking about - I don't mean that they should fight or anything like that - but they didn't even say anything. Thats the similarity to the Council - they didn't do a thing, they acted as if there were no problem.

[Laozi]

In that case Switzerland would be a closer model

[captivus]

Yeah but Switzerland is a country and the Church is an organisation of "moral and ethical leaders" that are supposed to show us the "paths we are to take if we are to live like the Lord ment us to". I'd say they differ from Switzerland

[KingofThieves]

You don't see the most obvious parallel between the vatican doing nothing and the jedi order doing nothing?

 

Perhaps the United States stance on the war (before they joined) was a more prominent/obvious influence (and perhaps a bit more accurate), but I like the parallel of religion the jedi order and the vatican share and believe it to be more fitting... That's just my opinion.

 

I love this quote, so I'm going to throw it in for no other reason but to annoy!

 

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

[captivus]

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

 

Good one . I agree

 

I just wonder - have you read it somewhere or do you know it from that film with Bruce Willis ?

[Laozi]

Yeah but Switzerland is a country and the Church is an organisation of "moral and ethical leaders" that are supposed to show us the "paths we are to take if we are to live like the Lord ment us to". I'd say they differ from Switzerland 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Only if you're catholic

 

And atleast Switzerland had a few "guys with guns". I never really saw the Jedi order as a religious authority in the Star Wars universe

[KingofThieves]

Captivus, another quote for you.

 

I'm your huckleberry.

[captivus]

Well I did - they meditate, think about moral and ethical problems plus they belive in the afterlife (there is no death - there is the Force). I'd say that makes them a religious group .

 

PS

QAnd they wear robes too

 

-----------------------------Edit-------------------

 

I'm your huckleberry

 

That'll probbably sound damn stupid but what's a huckleberry ? (English is not my first language)

[KingofThieves]

Doh! I guess you didn't see the MOVIE "Tombstone" then.

 

That was a bad cryptic joke that depended on you seeing some random flick out of millions in order for you to get it's meaning.

 

*sigh* Since you didn't get it. Yes, dammit, I saw that "good men do nothing" quote in a Bruce Willis film. Honestly, I am not that well read.

[Objulen]

I respected the two other than Atris and Vrook -- they could at least admit that they might have been wrong, and weren't sanctimonius bastards. At least, I did until the end when the decided to cut me off from the Force in their "infinite" wisdom. Then I didn't really care much for them

[Master Dahvernas]

I thought the Jedi Masters were nothing more than a plot device to get you to go from world to world on your quests.

 

I realize that any story driven game like an RPG needs goals... But like Maud'Dib and King of Thieves have said...

 

 

Their turn on your comes completely out of NOWHERE. This is just bad and sloppy storytelling. This is just Deus Ex Machina-type storytelling.

 

What is also frustrating is that like others have said at least two of the Jedi Master admit that perhaps they acted irrationally (out of fear; in no uncertain terms) in pronouncing judgment on you and actually WANT you to come back to the order... Then they just go along with the other two and you are forced to kill them.

 

This comes off jarring and is completely unexpected... But in a bad way because there is NO FRAME OF REFERENCE FROM THE PLAYER'S POV as to WHY this sudden turn is happening. This is why it feels "cheap" and actually does "cheat" the player because there is basically no "reward" for doing what you think is right (for LS) or even furthering your own goals (DS). It is a Deus Ex Machina plot twist that fuels act three -- Chase down Kriea and "save" the Galaxy from her (regardless of what side you play).

 

This is also why the game is not emotionally satisfying on any level and that is the biggest "sin" any RPG game can make because an RPG is more like a movie/novel than any other type of game and if you (the player) does not come away from it feeling emptionally satisfied... Even if you are playing DS... Then the developers have failed. Period.

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Look at it from their perspective. The death of the force will kill billions of people. You have already survived without the force for 10 years, aside from your blaze of glory since your return to known space you have been without the force completely.

 

Unfair to cut you off from the force if you are the Paragon of the Lightside then yes. But if you were really the paragon of the light you would understand that your loss was preferable to the deaths of billions of people wouldnt you think ?

 

Doing the last couple of hours without force powers would have proved a rather interesting challenge at least.

[Von Manstein]

The Vatican did do something during the Second World War. I'll quote Wikipedia:

 

"To his defenders, Pius [XII, Pope during the Second World War] is said to have worked tirelessly for peace and to help Jews who were facing persecution by Nazi Germany. Through the Pontifical Aid Commission, Pius XII provided relief to the victims of the war on both sides, but especially to the Jewish people. When, following the collapse of the Italian Royal Government, the Nazis occupied Rome on 10 September 1943, Pope Pius XII opened the Holy See to Jewish refugees. Estimates have suggested that 800,000 to 1,500,000 refugees, including Jews were helped by Pope Pius, many through the granting of Vatican citizenship. It has also been alleged that Pius directly supported the network of priests who smuggled vast numbers of Jews to safety. Israel Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, was so impressed by Pius's actions that following the war he not only became a Roman Catholic, but took "Eugenio," Pope Pius XII's Christian name, as his own Christian name upon Baptism, becoming "Eugenio Zolli." Furthermore, Jewish relief agencies donated over a million dollars in gratitude to the Holy See after the end of World War II in Europe, while Pius XII was awarded the title "Righteous Gentile" by the state of Israel, and the Israeli Government announced its intention to plant 850,000 trees in his honor - one for each Jewish life he was credited with saving. Upon Pope Pius XII's death he was eulogized movingly and appreciatively by Golda Meir, at that time Israel's ambassador to the United Nations.3"

 

Learn a bit of history before making generalisations about the Catholic Church. I'm not even a Catholic and you guys embarass me.

 

Furthermore, Hitler said that: "[Pius] is the only human being who has always contradicted me and who has never obeyed me."

 

For Pius to stand up and yell against Nazism at that time would have been an extremely dangerous and unintelligent manoeuver.

[KingofThieves]

This is what I get for citing that themes from real world history have an impact and influence on Star Wars.

 

People start debating the events surrounding that real world history and forget that you were just pointing them in the direction of the influence to begin with.

 

Did the Pope do his part - ultimately he did - and you got to give him props for it. But you're not telling the whole story when you quote wiki-pedia and you know it. The Catholic Church made some questionable choices during that war, especially early on. These questionable choices are the stem of influence on the jedi coucil. Period.

 

Don't be embarrassed for us like we're moral inferiors, dude. You just tried to mock us with research you can find by a google - and I'm calling you on it.

[Von Manstein]

Give me a break. The Catholic Church doesn't have an untarnished history. You said that the Jedi Council, like the Catholic Church, were stagnant. You were wrong. Now you're changing your argument, which is fine, but admit you are changing it.

 

"You don't see the most obvious parallel between the vatican doing nothing and the jedi order doing nothing?"

 

The RCC did far from "nothing". Don't generalise. They did some good things and quite a lot of bad things - nevertheless, they did many "somethings". The Jedi Council didn't do anything. The parallel is weak.

[antivirus]

first of all, Edmund Burke, a distant relative of mine said that quote about good men doing nothing for evil to triumph.

 

Second of all, the Jedi are clearly a form of the samurai. I would not be surprised if there was a tale very similar to this story about a samurai's exile, and return for vengeance/to make piece.

 

It is also quite possible that this story came from someone who has a very good imagination. Either way, it was worth the money for 29 hours of my time

[pinion42]

I actually think the encounter with the Four Jedi Masters (from a Lightside perspective) was quite fulfilling. And not a surprise.

 

The people working on Obsidian seem to have an adoration for this theme - the hero who returns home only to be rejected by those she has saved. (Previously they have explored it in Fallout) The Jedi Masters are grateful to the Exile for saving them, but they still feel that she poses a great danger to what they love. And this is what Kreia's point is. This is the ultimate story of Knights of the Old Republic II - The Jedi Order is flawed. It has lost touch with true morality, and you see it in the response of the Jedi Masters when faced with something that they fear, that they do not understand. Instead of accepting their proper role, their stated role, they cast it off, and try to make the problem go away.

 

This is consistent with the true nature of the Jedi Order. It is this fear that is its cancer, and leads it to its slow drifting downfall during the rise of the Galactic Empire.

 

I think you see hints of this in the game. In Atton's backstory if you develop it, in what Kreia talks about, and in the musings of Master Kavar. The Jedi seem to suspect that there is something wrong, but it is Kreia who truly sees it. Kreia is just as twisted; she merely goes the other route and tries to destroy /everything./ If you follow G0-T0's conversation paths, though, you see that only two people have the right idea, WHETHER LIGHT OR DARK - the Exile and Revan.

 

So cheers to you, Obsidian, for having the guts to have the Jedi Masters play this role in this story. I think that it was /gutsy/ for them to have this story. I think that they haven't delivered a poor ending simply because they don't bash you over the head with it and show a medal put around the Exile's neck or a Sith fleet heading towards the Core. Yes, I agree that from a production standpoint it's a bit rushed, but there's /no/ weakness in the story. Or, more importantly, in the philosophy they have constructed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I couldn't agree more with all the points you have made. You perfectly summed up everything. It was very gutsy to go with the story they did, and I believe it paid off. People may think it's not as epic as the first game, or it has a weak ending, or plot holes, etc..

 

The fact of the matter is that there are no flaws in the story, just like you said. The characters are so much more developed and interesting in KOTOR II. Not everything is handed to you on a platter, as you have to discover things for yourself, and when the game does reach the point of closure it is all the more satisfying.

 

The Jedi masters themselves simply reveal the flaw in the Jedi order. It needed to be rebuilt. I found Vrook and Atris to be very preachy, arrogant, and foolish. Kavar and Zez-Kai-Ell were definitely the brighter of the bunch, and I admired their characters. It would have been nice to have a choice in the matter on Dantooine, but ultimately Kreia does what needed to be done. I felt that the Jedi masters' story played out excellently.

 

I personally feel that The Sith Lords is above and beyond the original in all aspects. Kudos to Obsidian for taking some bold risks. KOTOR II has taken its place as my favourite game ever. Right where it belongs.

[Objulen]

Look at it from their perspective. The death of the force will kill billions of people. You have already survived without the force for 10 years, aside from your blaze of glory since your return to known space you have been without the force completely.

 

Unfair to cut you off from the force if you are the Paragon of the Lightside then yes. But if you were really the paragon of the light you would understand that your loss was preferable to the deaths of billions of people wouldnt you think ?

 

Doing the last couple of hours without force powers would have proved a rather interesting challenge at least.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, if you play the game as a female and go through conversations with Disciple, you learn that

The echo that will destroy all life has already been created, and you are the only one who can stop it

. The Jedi Masters would have

ended up shooting themselves in the foot if Kreia hadn't steped in.

 

[KingofThieves]

I generalized because I didn't want to go into detail and debate with people about real world history on a Star Wars forum. If so much of what I said was obvious to you then I shouldn't even have to point this out. You are just being argumentative. (and so am I, at this point :D )

 

There are other places on the internet you can go to debate stuff like this if you want, Von Manstein. But Getting into detail about Hitler and the Vatican is a sure way to get a thread locked on a video game forum.

 

Also, the generalization I made was exactly what most of the free world thought about the vatican during no small amount of WW II- that they were doing nothing. If you take it for what it was, a generalization, then the parallel is spot on.

[captivus]

To his defenders, Pius [XII, Pope during the Second World War] is said to have worked tirelessly for peace and to help Jews who were facing persecution by Nazi Germany. Through the Pontifical Aid Commission, Pius XII provided relief to the victims of the war on both sides, but especially to the Jewish people. When, following the collapse of the Italian Royal Government, the Nazis occupied Rome on 10 September 1943, Pope Pius XII opened the Holy See to Jewish refugees. Estimates have suggested that 800,000 to 1,500,000 refugees, including Jews were helped by Pope Pius, many through the granting of Vatican citizenship. It has also been alleged that Pius directly supported the network of priests who smuggled vast numbers of Jews to safety. Israel Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, was so impressed by Pius's actions that following the war he not only became a Roman Catholic, but took "Eugenio," Pope Pius XII's Christian name, as his own Christian name upon Baptism, becoming "Eugenio Zolli." Furthermore, Jewish relief agencies donated over a million dollars in gratitude to the Holy See after the end of World War II in Europe, while Pius XII was awarded the title "Righteous Gentile" by the state of Israel, and the Israeli Government announced its intention to plant 850,000 trees in his honor - one for each Jewish life he was credited with saving. Upon Pope Pius XII's death he was eulogized movingly and appreciatively by Golda Meir, at that time Israel's ambassador to the United Nations.3"

 

 

 

I don't that that vast knowledge so I can't argue - but neverthenless from what I know the Church did not as much as they should have done and in that they are similar to the jedi Council. Remember that the Jedi - eventually - went on the war and fought Malak and Revan.

[Darth Flibble]

Well, I hated Vrash, the guy was just too stubborn & close minded. The Jedi Master-with-a-stupid-name was just a **** for hiding & not wanting to be a Jedi anymore, but then deciding to be all tough & stuff when he has 2 other Masters backing him up. The other one was good, but just not strong-willed enough to go against the other two.

 

& I think they were a bit rash in their whole 'we must cut u off from the force' tactic. they came to that conclusion after ahvin a 3 minute conversation with you each? come on! whatever happened to patience, waiting to see the true nature of the threat, being certain in their actions. Hypocritical *@#s!

 

& wot i don't get is, one-on-one, i beat the masters, a few probs with Vrash, but nothin I couldn't handle. i then beat Kreia at the end, no harder than the 3 masters. HOW IN THE HELL THEN, DOES SHE KILL ALL 3 AT ONCE WITH ONE ATTACK!?!?!?! It's not as if she blind-sided them either, they were chattin fer a minute or so before hand! if these were Jedi Masters, no wonder the Jedi were on the verge of extinction at the start of this!!!