How can it be ATI's problem?

[skuldar]

specs - ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, 2.8GHz P4, 1GB RAM

 

I've seen people listing older Catalyst drivers like 4.11 saying that's the "fix" for lag problems in some open areas. Others say 5.2 is the best version. And I've seen posts that blame ATI and say they need to fix their drivers.

 

Well, okay, but why is it that Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 (and a half-dozen others) run smooth as glass on my system yet KotOR 2 chokes and gags when I turn away from my ship in the docking area on Dantooine? What is KotOR doing that is slowing down the GPU so much? Seems like a buggy graphics engine to me, or inefficient at the least. My setup should have no problems with anything this game throws at it unless it's throwing something it shouldn't.

 

No other game I've played in the last year has seemed nearly this buggy out of the gate. What is the justification for blaming ATI's drivers? Is there really an issue with post 4.11 Catalyst drivers for anything other than KotOR? If not, then I can't see laying the fault at ATI's feet.

[Dellaster]

Because those other games are direct3D, not OpenGL like KotOR 2. ATI cards had problems on KotOR as well. I had a 9800 Pro at the time and had to revert to drivers three releases out-of-date to prevent game-stopping glitches. NWN and the expansions didn't crash on my ATI cards, to my memory, but took a substantially heftier card to match performance with a nVidia -- GF 5700 Ultra matches a Radeon 9700 kind of thing.

 

It's not the cards, it's the drivers. ATI has admitted that they need to beef up their (almost non-existant) OpenGL team. Of course, that was a year ago and nothing seems to have changed.

 

Fortunately there's a solution now that wasn't available a year or so ago: buy a nVidia card for running both directX and OpenGL games. The new GF cards are at least as good as the new Radeons in directX while still enjoying the vast advantage over Radeons for OpenGL games.

[gullf1sk]

what dellaster said

[skuldar]

Because those other games are direct3D, not OpenGL like KotOR 2. ATI cards had problems on KotOR as well. I had a 9800 Pro at the time and had to revert to drivers three releases out-of-date to prevent game-stopping glitches. NWN and the expansions didn't crash on my ATI cards, to my memory, but took a substantially heftier card to match performance with a nVidia --  GF 5700 Ultra matches a Radeon 9700 kind of thing.

 

It's not the cards, it's the drivers. ATI has admitted that they need to beef up their (almost non-existant) OpenGL team. Of course, that was a year ago and nothing seems to have changed.

 

Fortunately there's a solution now that wasn't available a year or so ago: buy a nVidia card for running both directX and OpenGL games. The new GF cards are at least as good as the new Radeons in directX while still enjoying the vast advantage over Radeons for OpenGL games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Doom 3 is OpenGL and it runs great, like I said, so your argument loses some steam there. I know ATI is generally worse with OpenGL and better with direct3D, and the opposite for nVidia, but this performance problem is way beyond chipset bias. I'm not going to buy an nVidia card when my ATI runs nearly every other game on the planet quite handily, both OpenGL and direct3D. And that's my point. If all those other game developers can write stuff that works with my ATI, why can't these? Why is it ONLY the KotOR engine that has these problems?

 

[EDIT]

 

Oh, and here's the other thing. If I go into Advanced Options under Graphics in the game and turn on anti-aliasing or other options and go back in, the lag is gone for a minute then comes back even worse. That pattern repeats whether I turn advanced features on or off.

 

Just now my PC locked up completely on Dantooine. There's no excuse for that. LA/Obsidian needs to get out a patch for this kind of thing; it's their responsibility since it's their code that's freaking out my system. Nobody else's code does this.

 

[EDIT AGAIN]

 

Thankfully adding the "Disable Vertex Buffer Objects=1" to Graphics Options in the .ini file cleared up the Dantooine lag problem.

[absinthewfaust]

Fortunately there's a solution now that wasn't available a year or so ago: buy a nVidia card for running both directX and OpenGL games. The new GF cards are at least as good as the new Radeons in directX while still enjoying the vast advantage over Radeons for OpenGL games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

um yeah.. again, call me anti consumerist, but i refuse to buy a new gfx card to make ONE game playable, when so many other OPENGL*! based games that i own run smooth as silk.. let's see, doom3, call of duty+ expansion, KotOR1 *shock and amazement*, half life's, hitman's, home world's, realms of torment aka mourning, IL2+pac fighters..just to name a few.

 

YES ati and opengl have a well documented and unique relationship, but gross generalizing and pointing the finger at ati is obsurd.

[Dellaster]

Yes, Doom 3 is also OpenGL. But they took extra pains to make it work okay with ATI cards. If you recall the benchmark reviews when Doom 3 came out, nVidia still had a substantial advantage.

 

Which was really my point: all things being pretty equal nowadays on the directX front, why bother buying ATI when they've apparently done nothing to improve their OpenGL driver in the past year, since KotOR? Unless, of course, you have no plans to play KotOR 3 (if it gets made), NWN2, or any other OpenGL game in the future?

 

I swallowed my ATI-arrogance and bought a GeForce 6800 GT. No regrets, now or in the future.

[Master Dahvernas]

It's a combination of a buggy engine -- the Buffer Vertex Object error -- And ATI's OpenGL drivers.

 

While you may play Doom III and other OGL games fine... The truth is even FX cards like the 5200 will actually outperform an ATI 9800 as far as OpenGL performances goes (benchmark for benchmark) because of the architecture of Nvidia chips that just gives Nvidia cards better performance in OGL as well as their drivers.

 

The exact opposite is true for ATI and D3D/DX9c games.

 

Basically, the problems with the Odyssey Engine is that it is an old 2002-2003 engine that isn't really that efficient and uses OGL at a time OGL was being phased out in favor of D3D/DX9 specs and these problems are compounded with ATI's poor OGL drivers.

[MaglorD]

Yes, Doom 3 is also OpenGL. But they took extra pains to make it work okay with ATI cards. If you recall the benchmark reviews when Doom 3 came out, nVidia still had a substantial advantage.

 

Perhaps your argument might hold more merit if you could name another OGL game that performs poorly on ATI hardware, other than those based on the Aurora/Odyssey engine. I have played Chronicles of Riddick and Jedi Academy, both OGL games, and there wasn't even a hint of lagging whatsoever. If the only OGL games that seem to perform poorly on ATI are apparently KotOR 1 & 2 then they are more likely the problem. Having said that, I have played KotOR 2 until the end of Telos and only noticed a slightly rough patch at the Telos residential area, which I believe could be some kind of memory leak.

[MaglorD]

It's a combination of a buggy engine -- the Buffer Vertex Object error -- And ATI's OpenGL drivers.

 

While you may play Doom III and other OGL games fine... The truth is even FX cards like the 5200 will actually outperform an ATI 9800 as far as OpenGL performances goes (benchmark for benchmark) because of the architecture of Nvidia chips that just gives Nvidia cards better performance in OGL as well as their drivers.

 

Here are some benchmarks for Doom 3. http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q3/radeo...xt/index.x?pg=7

 

As you can see, the FX Nvidia series is nowhere close to the performance of a 9800 XT. It also compares the X800 Pro with Nvidia's 6800 and they are comparable in performance, so I'm not sure where you got your info from.

[swaaye]

The problem is not ATI.

 

The problem IS that KOTOR was programmed for OpenGL and Xbox. Xbox has a NVGPU in it. So, basically KOTOR was developed almost primarily for Nvidia hardware. They knew NV had 50% of the PC market and 100% of the Xbox console. So, why go out of their way for ATI? It runs on ATI. It's not perfectly optimized, but it runs.

 

You can bet on there being some very NV-centric coding in this engine. There was in Neverwinter Nights where you'll see similar performance problems, and pixel shaded water that took FOREVER (patches) to work on ATI cards.

 

It's similar to why Doom3 runs so well on NV hardware. Doom3 was developed again almost primarily on NV hardware. Go back and read John Carmack's .Plan files. He thought of NV as the gold standard for OpenGL drivers back during development. The way Doom3 renders breaks optimizations in ATI's hardware. Hyper Z's functionality was limited by these things, and NVidia's hardware is also more capable of Doom3's type of shadowing. The GFFX and GF6 cards are literally developed with Doom3's shadowing in mind. One of the big reasons for ATI's performance problems early on with Doom3 was that a texture lookup was being done where a math-equivalent function could have been used, and the math was FAR FAR faster than a texture lookup for ATI. Things like this are why Doom3 is faster on NV.

 

So, basically, you people need to read a lot deeper into the problem of KOTOR.

 

Generalizations about KOTOR being the defining factor of ATI's OpenGL driver quality are complete BS. ATI's OpenGL drivers have been becoming quite awesome since the release of R300 (9700) and this fall they dumped A LOT of resources into them specifically to try to remedy the Doom3 situation. (Go look at comparisons of Doom3 and Catalyst 4.8-onward.)

 

ATI has this unfortunate bad rep due to their previously less-than-stellar drivers (pre-Radeon 9700 mostly, though 8500 was ok towards the end) and having developers biasing their programming for various reasons.. Honestly, you guys have probably never used really bad ATI drivers. You'd have to go back to the day of Rage Pro and Rage II to REALLY experience that. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if most of your bad driver experiences are connected with bad motherboard chipsets, primarily VIA KT266 and older.

 

We'll see what happens with the next gen of hardware once ATI has 2 consoles out there with THEIR hardware in them. Gamecube's hardware is very different than R3x0 and R4x0, and Gamecube doesn't get the games like Xbox, so I don't think it helped ATI much in the way Xbox helped NV.

[Adraeus]

I'm using the same setup (my general gaming computer) with KotOR2 that I did for KotOR. With KotOR, I had zero problems. Yes, that's right: zero problems. KotOR worked and works perfectly; however, KotOR2 does not.

 

AMD Athlon 1Ghz

ATI Radeon 8500

1GB SDRAM

VIA VT8363 KT133/A (KT7A-RAID)

[Longjocks]

Drivers can still be the cause of issues even if other games one has work fine. I think this needs to be made clear. The extent of these issues can greatly vary.

 

However, I'm not here to argue the point, I just suggest you check out the first post of this thread.

 

That's not to say KotOR2 doesn't have coding problems. This is just another way to be pro-active and help eliminate the drivers as a problem.

[Legat]

, why go out of their way for ATI?

 

Because they put in on their box under "supported hardware"?

 

It runs on ATI. It's not perfectly optimized, but it runs.

 

That is the biggest euphemism I heard since a doctor told me the gastroscopy was going to be "a little bit " unpleasant.

 

Excuse me, but when I use a several year old engine which is infamous for compatibility issues with certain hardware, then I should consider solving the problem before the releasedate.

 

Especially since the engine does plain and simple look ugly and did so 2 years ago.

Such bad performance is unacceptable. What did they do in those 2 years??? Was the entire team occupied with storywriting? I don't think so.

The programmers had 2 years to optimize the engenine and did not. They have not done any major changes in either gameplay not visual appearance. What did theiy do in those 2 years?

 

I also find it unacceptable, that I have to play this game on the lowest resolution because otherwhise the game crashes during certain cutcenes.

 

Also, I really despise the fact that they did not even make the efford to implement high resolution cutscenes and sound files. I am not one to emphasis looks over substance, but when there are cutscenes, they better not insult my eyes.

 

Do not get me wrong. I lake teh game in terms of gameplay. The changes being made fit in and improve the overall feel. The changes are basically covering everything that bothered me on Kotor1. But the overall anger about having to tingle my system for 5 days to even make it run remotely stable somewhat spoiled it.

The only drawback is that the game is awkwardly balanced and far too easy, but that is a matter of taste I guess.

Overall, the game makes the appearence of a quickport from Xbox to PC, plain and simple and since LA was responsible for QA, this leads me to a simple conclusion.

 

I will certainly not spend any money on an LA project anytime soon.

[absinthewfaust]

Yes, Doom 3 is also OpenGL. But they took extra pains to make it work okay with ATI cards. If you recall the benchmark reviews when Doom 3 came out, nVidia still had a substantial advantage.

 

Which was really my point: all things being pretty equal nowadays on the directX front, why bother buying ATI when they've apparently done nothing to improve their OpenGL driver in the past year, since KotOR? Unless, of course, you have no plans to play KotOR 3 (if it gets made), NWN2, or any other OpenGL game in the future?

 

I swallowed my ATI-arrogance and bought a GeForce 6800 GT. No regrets, now or in the future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

my statement was that doom3 runs flawlessly for me personally, not that ati out performs nvidia.. sorry if your comment on that was not directed at me. responding anyway just in case.

 

as for KotOR3 nwn2 etc etc.. heh, that's a little bit far into the future to be concerned with now. when those come out, if i am due new hardware, i'll do my homework and buy accordingly, like i have always done. :D

 

on a side note, funny that, i used to be nvidia proud. when it was time to upgrade, taking into concideration - finances, i went ati, and have never looked back.

[JamieKirby]

well, Doom III use extensive shadows, which make the game more scary, if you hear zombiees groan in the shadows frightens you anyway.

 

ATI can't process shadows as well as Nvidia, shadows aren't really important to me anywayz.

 

But Kotor II runs fine on mine, despite some slowdowns i can't explain.

 

Please, don't say it is ATI, it isn't.

 

My moms' computer is slightly faster then mine, she also has a Geforce FX 5900 Ultra with 256MB, while i have a Radeon 9800Pro 128MB and she gets the same slowdown, and my brother that has a MUCH faster computer with a 6800 Ultra still gets the slowdowns. lol

 

But hey, it could just be my game, but other then the slowdown, i don't have a problem with it.

[Jalo Jago]

I think there are a further two issues worth considering in this argument:

 

1) Laptop owners (me) are rather discriminated (if passivley) against at the moment, as they (I) have VERY limited choice in terms of graphics cards. It's not as simple as just buying an nVidia one coz they're better, either, like some of you are suggesting. It's not simple because I CAN'T. Obviously. Also, at the time of buying (personally), nVidia Go chips nowhere near compared with the RMobility cards on the market. So I got an RM 9700 (interestingly, mentioned above as well OGL equipped, though my game's utterly f*cked. I mean bugged. Well both.)

 

2) Those who are posing the argument that their system ran KotOR perfectly... well, I don't know, but a much larger proportion of people will have picked up kotor a few months post-release. Meaning it was fully patched and working nicely. That's what I did... full specs, 6xAA, soft shadows and 1280x res. Lovely. With that in mind, isn't it a bit early to be making this comparison as an argument either against the game or the cards?

 

In summary: I just want a patch. Please?

[swaaye]

That is the biggest euphemism I heard since a doctor told me the gastroscopy was going to be "a little bit "  unpleasant.

 

Excuse me, but when I use a several year old engine which is infamous for compatibility issues with certain hardware, then I should consider solving the problem before the releasedate.

 

Especially since the engine does plain and simple look ugly and did so 2 years ago.

Such bad performance is unacceptable. What did they do in those 2 years??? Was the entire team occupied with storywriting? I don't think so.

The programmers had 2 years to optimize the engenine and did not. They have not done any major changes in either gameplay not visual appearance. What did theiy do in those 2 years?

 

I also find it unacceptable, that I have to play this game on the lowest resolution because otherwhise the game crashes during certain cutcenes.

 

Also, I really despise the fact that they did not even make the efford to implement high resolution cutscenes and sound files. I am not one to emphasis looks over substance, but when there are cutscenes, they better not insult my eyes.

 

Do not get me wrong. I lake teh game in terms of gameplay. The changes being made fit in and improve the overall feel. The changes are basically covering everything that bothered me on Kotor1. But the overall anger about having to tingle my system for 5 days to even make it run remotely stable somewhat spoiled it.

The only drawback is that the game is awkwardly balanced and far too easy, but that is a matter of taste I guess.

Overall, the game makes the appearence of a quickport from Xbox to PC, plain and simple and since LA was responsible for QA, this leads me to a simple conclusion.

 

I will certainly not spend any money on an LA project anytime soon.

 

I've enjoyed a gastroendoscopy myself. I got knocked out for it though

 

With regards to KOTOR and ATI, I stand by my statements. The game engine is not particularly ATI friendly. Go back and read http://swforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html...352372&forum=80 .

 

I have never even played KOTOR on a NV card. I played it on my 9700 (along with a 9200 and a 9600) and I tried KOTOR 2 on my 9700 a bit, but I'm playing it almost entirely on my notebook's 9600. Historically KOTOR 1 ran better on NV hardware. KOTOR2 just seems to run terrible regardless of your hardware.

 

It generally runs ok, but some spots are horrible. Like the fog effects. And Dantooine I believe (where I just got to). It has only crashed a few times on me, mainly in one repeatable spot on the first stage of the game at that mining station....a door would kill the game every time I tried to open it, but I managed to go around.

 

Because of the bugs and the crap music quality, I recommend no one buy this game until it is at least patched.