Revised NPC analysis

[Falconhurst]

Hanharr Level 4

STR 20

DEX 13

CON 20

INT 10

WIS 12

CHA 8

Points: 55 Base + 1 attribute increase at level 4 (STR or DEX)

Balance: +25 (!!)

 

Hanharr isn't really as good as he looks. As a melee-based non-Force user, his STR doesn't make up for what you could get with 1 or 2 good lightsaber crystals. The poor DEX and inability to wear armor ensure that he will take a lot of damage in every combat. The inability to use a number of other items ensures that, while his initial stats look reasonable, that's all that Hanharr offers -- it is difficult to buff him like other characters. I would take most of the Jedi over Hanharr any day.

 

Kreia lvl3

STR 10

DEX 16

CON 16

INT 14

WIS 16

CHA 12

Points: 42

Balance: +12

 

Kreia isn't really as good as her stats look on paper. Yes, the force bond with your Jedi is nice, but the main character doesn't really need it. Kreia cannot gain any Two-Weapon fighting feats, meaning that she cannot use double-bladed lightsabers at all. This means that her melee ability is much less than most other Jedi, in conjunction with very low strength. She is a good force user, but that is all she is: she is terrible in melee or ranged combat and gets few feats. I find that Visas makes just as good a force user, but has much better melee skills too.

 

 

Go-To (Level 6)

STR 10

DEX 19

CON 16

INT 16

WIS 10

CHA 10

Points: 42 base + 1 attribute increase (DEX)

Balance: +12

 

A decent ranged attacker, but without the combat skills of HK-47 or the tech skills of T3M4. I have found little use for him.

 

Visas (lvl6)

STR 12

DEX 18

CON 12

INT 10

WIS 12

CHA 15

Points: 35 base + 1 stat increase (DEX)

Balance: +5

 

IMO, perhaps the best all-around Jedi. Although her INT is nothing to write home about, as a sentinel Visas gets 3 skill points per level, allowing her to make a significant contribution. With lighsaber finess she is quite good. Also a very reasonable force user. Even as a LS player, Visas has plenty of force points at higher levels to use level 3 force lightening and other damaging DS powers. Reasonable feat and skill progression.

 

Visas has no armor skills, so I find it necessary to put at least one feat into armor so that she can use decent Jedi robes.

 

Edit: I may need to be a little more modest about Visas. Her CON is only 12, largely precluding her from ever being able to use the best implants (she can get 18 CON at the earliest only at level 28). CHA really isn't that useful. Her only shining attribute is Dexterity, which has some major limitations in TSL. It is the easiest of all the attributes to buff, and it also suffers from inherent DEX bonus caps with almost any kind of armor, including most jedi robes that provide any defensive benefit at all. I still think Visas is pretty good, but still not ideal in some ways.

 

As a non-guardian, she can't get LS specialization (+2 damage).

 

HK-47 (level 6)

STR 16

DEX 16

CON 10

INT 14

WIS 12

CHA 10

Points: 32 base + 1 stat increase (STR or DEX)

Balance: +2

 

Haven't used him much, can't comment.

 

Handmaiden (lvl 6)

 

STR 14

DEX 16

CON 14

INT 10

WIS 10

CHA 14

Points: 30 +1 stat increase (DEX)

 

Handmaiden is balanced but her bonus feat, Echani fighting, is all but useless as she will essentially never fight unarmed, except against you. As a soldier/guardian, she gains only 1 skill point/level. Makes an OK jedi but there are better.

 

Disciple (lvl 6)

STR 14

DEX 16

CON 14

INT 10

WIS 10

CHA 14

POINTS: 30 base + 1 stat increase (DEX)

 

Haven't used him, can't comment. Stat allocation looks the same as Handmaiden.

 

Mandalore (level 5)

STR 15

DEX 12

CON 15

INT 12

WIS 12

CHA 12

Points: 30 base +1 stat increase (STR or CON)

 

While Mandalore looks balanced on paper, in practice he is one of the worst designed characters. He has a DEX of 12 which is completely worthless as his armor, which allows a dex bonus of 0, cannot be removed. As a soldier with no potential to be a Jedi, the WIS and CHA are worthless. As a soldier with 1 base skill point per level, a 12 int is also fairly worthless -- there are much better characters for skills without sacrificing stats. So the DEX, INT, WIS, CHA are all worthless, essentially 8 lost stat points. What he needs are STR and CON which are only 15 even as a level 6 character -- also very poor.

 

Mandalore seems to get more feats than most soldiers, he gets 1 a level with only a few exceptions. As such, the feats are wasted on melee fighting because there aren't that many useful melee feats to take. Obviously he can't compete with double-bladed lightsaber users anyway. So I ended up making him into a ranged character and taking advantage of all his feats to get close combat 2, precise shot 5, master 2WF, and blaster pistol specialization for the bonuses. He can dish out a reasonable amount of ranged damage, the big catch being that with an effective DEX bonus of 0 and the impossibility of augmenting this because of his armor, he is obviously disadvantaged compared to ranged users with decent DEX.

 

I just can't figure out what the designers were thinking with Mandalore. Hard to believe he is the "leader" of the Mandalorians with an atrocious, self-defeating design like this.

 

T3M4 (level 3)

STR 10

DEX 15

CON 14

INT 16

WIS 10

CHA 10

Points: 30 base

 

Good for tech skills, not so good for combat, no force. But some of the Jedi (Bao-Dur, Visas, main character) have enough skills that I have found little use for T3M4 outside of the times when you are required to use him.

 

Atton lvl3

STR 12

DEX 16

CON 14

INT 10

WIS 10

CHA 12

Points: 28 base

Balance: -2

 

Although Atton has a slightly disadvantaged stat allocation, his "get up and fight" feat even when heavily wounded is one of the best. I took him to level 7 as a scoundrel and switched him to Jedi with stasis powers. This combo immobilizes enemies, and then he gets a +4d6 sneak damage with every hit from his scoundrel levels. He needs lightsaber finess and has poor strength.

 

Overall, Atton seems to balance out and is a reasonable design. Not the best, not the worst.

 

 

Bao-Dur (Level 6)

STR 14

DEX 10

CON 14

INT 15

WIS 14

CHA 10

Points: 28 base + 1 stat increase (INT)

Balance: -2

 

Bao-Dur would have 30 points if he were level 1-3, but when you take into consideration that he is level 6, he should have gotten the int 14->15 for free with with level-ups as he is beyond level 4. So this is a substandard build by attributes.

 

Yet I find Bao-Dur to be one of the best characters, holding him at tech level 6 and changing him to a jedi. He has lots and lots of skill points, especially if you increase his INT to 16. He has reasonable force points with a WIS of 14 and does reasonable damage with a STR of 14. His CON can be increased to 18 to use the best implants. He make a good Jedi Guardian with DS lightsaber.

 

Perhaps the biggest unique selling feature of Bao-Dur is his remote, which adds additional laser damage. This is almost like Bao-Dur having a 3rd hand.

 

The downside is no Jedi robes. I actually keep him in armor and give him a good lightsaber. He can still heal and use limited powers, but his best use is melee.

 

Mira (lvl 6)

STR 10

DEX 16

CON 12

INT 14

WIS 11

CHA 10

Points: 25 base + 1 stat increase (DEX).

Balance: -5 points, this is as bad as it gets

 

Mira is completely sucky, very substandard. She can be a Jedi, but I find no use for her. Her unique skill (doesn't set off mines) is fairly worthless. Her melee damage is terrible (STR 10) and she makes a poor lightsaber user. Her CON is low and so she can never use the best implants. Her WIS and CHA are low so she is a poor force user. By far the worst of the Jedi.

[Tanuvein]

Interesting perspective, but I have to disagree about Atton being fairly standard. He did almost as much damage as teh Handmaiden when armed with two sabers and giving the self-buffing spells as well as two-weapon feets. On top of that, since my first play was as a consular, he basically covered ALL the skills I could not raise except Computer. Very useful.

 

Still, good read. Thanks

[QQQ]

I definitely agree with you on Visas. She has a nearly even blend of force abilities and is fairly damaging with a lightsaber.

 

But, my favorite Jedi would have to go to the Handmaiden. In terms of fighting ability she was nearly the level of my Guardian/Weapons Master. Plus I invested nearly all of her feats into dual weapon/2 weapon fighting feats. With the right items I made her into a powerhouse of a character.

 

But, it's all in how you like to play the game. I rely heavily on fighting/melee abilities rather than force powers. I use force powers as a nice compliment to my fighting skills.

My favorite party is Kreia and Handmaiden. I use Kreia solely as a force power user, to stun all the enemies (Force Wave, Insanity, Stasis Field), while myself and Handmaiden chop them to bits.

[Falconhurst]

I like Atton too. I'll stand by "not the best, not the worst," but have definitely come to appreciate his stay-alive skills. Handmaiden still has a 4-point damage advantage per hit (+2 STR, +2 LS Specialization).

 

Handmaiden, yes, I also use a lot. Bao-Dur, however, offers everything Handmaiden does (Jedi Guardian, Force Jump, more force points, albeit with lower DEX) with a lot more skills and a flying laser remote to boot. I still use Handmaiden as much or more than Bao-Dur because she has a more interesting personality, and bring in Bao-Dur mainly when I need the skills.

 

I am not saying at all that people shouldn't play with certain NPCs; I am simply trying to provide some analysis of the advantages and disadvantages. The game is easy enough, even on difficult, that you can easily beat it even with weak or poorly-designed characters like Mira and Mandalore. The decision of what NPCs to use ultimately comes down to who you like.

[Unabomber]

Interesting summary. I agree with a good bit, but where I disagree:

 

1) Mandalore: Make him a melee fighter, and increase his strength, just like most folks did in KOTOR 1. Also, increase strength further with GNS enhancer, STR implants, and Dominator gauntlets. With the best upgrades for melee weapons in combination with two weapon fighting, master flurry, and his wielding two highly upgraded melee weapons, he becomes a true tank. Three attacks / round with keen weapons is bound to have some profound effect!

 

2) Handmaiden: With her unarmed combat skills and as a Jedi Guardian, she's doing as much damage with her bare hands and feet as she would with a lightsaber (unless you have the best upgrades in there). Still, I prefer to give her a lightsaber, since she can use Force Jump. During the combat on Duxon against the hordes of Sith Assassins, she kept using Force Jump (in combination with Master Speed), and killing off one assassin after another, before I could even get to them. Not much in the way of skills, but since I build her to be a melee tank, it's not too important.

 

3) Mira: I agree with the fact that she's not terribly useful as-is (y'all remember the first fight with Hanharr...), but giving her the lightsaber finese feat (uses DEX in lieu of STR for lightsaber attack bonuses), some good lightsaber upgrades, and pumping implant and headgear bonuses into WIS and CHR, and she's actually very good. With her array of skills and feats, she's pretty good all-around, as a stealth artist, repair, and security expert.

[Osiris]

I read that armour AC penalty only affects AC, not to hit rolls. So if you wanted, you could still put points into Dext for Mandalore and use him as a ranged attacker. But I find he works well as a melee specialist.

 

You are seriously underrated some of the non light saber melee weapons in this game. True, they will never do as much damage as a light saber, but I find melee works better than ranged attacks either way.

[Objulen]

Hanharr is great, or at least he would be great if his Wookie Rage was working properly. At higher levels, it gives him two extra attacks that aren't showing up, along with the normal strength and hp bonuses. Tack on the third level of Flurry and that's five attacks a round.

[Falconhurst]

>You are seriously underrated some of the non light saber melee weapons in this >game. True, they will never do as much damage as a light saber

 

That's the point.

 

>but I find melee works better than ranged attacks either way.

 

I disagree. Precise shot 5 gives you +8 to damage and -10 to deflect. WS: BP gives another +2 damage. Get a good fully upgraded heavy blaster, dual-wield, and you can wipe out most enemies without ever having to move from your position. And, I don't have dominator gauntlets even for my main character -- let alone for third-tier NPCs like Mandalore. The fallout of a sucky random loot system. Some may like Mandalore on melee, but I find there is little melee use for his numerous feats. Whatever floats your boat, but I think it is hard to claim that melee is always superior to ranged, especially with Obsidian really buffing up ranged attacks with precise shot 5 and nice weapon upgrades.

 

>Handmaiden: With her unarmed combat skills and as a Jedi Guardian, she's >doing as much damage with her bare hands and feet as she would with a >lightsaber (unless you have the best upgrades in there).

 

Untrue. If you get fully-upgraded unarmed skills for her at level 30 (good luck), she gets an extra 8-32 in unarmed damage from unarmed combat and +3-12 from Echani Strike III (level 17). That looks pretty good. Except when you consider that unarmed attack gives you only one attack a round, compared to 2 with a good double-bladed saber. I have DS sabers that do better than 8-32 damage and I'm still only on Onderon with level 20 handmaiden, only they get 2 attacks a round instead of just 1. Because of this, even a low-strength character with a mediocre double lightsaber could chop handmaiden to bits with her highly upgraded unarmed attack. Now maybe with flurry and master speed, unarmed would be okay, but at one attack a round vs. two it's not that great.

 

If everyone else fought on Handmaiden's terms -- stripped and weaponless -- unarmed fighting could actually be pretty useful. But they don't, and I have found little use for it.

 

>3) Mira: I agree with the fact that she's not terribly useful as-is (y'all remember >the first fight with Hanharr...), but giving her the lightsaber finese feat (uses DEX >in lieu of STR for lightsaber attack bonuses), some good lightsaber upgrades, >and pumping implant and headgear bonuses into WIS and CHR, and she's >actually very good.

 

Take ANY character, no matter how sucky, outfit them with fully-upgraded weapons, buff them with the best equipment, advance them to level 20 and spend your points rationally, and guess what? They can turn out "actually very good." Just not as good as the other characters with the advantage of the same equipment and upgrades. As I've mentioned, the game is easy enough that even Mira can be made into a contender against anything the computer can throw at you. So ultimately it still boils down to personal preference, all analysis aside. Like powerful NPC? Fine. Sucky NPCs? Fine. Either way the game is basically a cakewalk from the time you receive your first lightsaber.

 

>[Hanharr] Tack on the third level of Flurry and that's five attacks a round.

 

My main character rarely gets to use all his attacks with a DS saber and master speed because most enemies are dead after half a round (2 attacks). If only KOTOR had cleave like NWN, the extra attacks might actually be useful.

[Jack Rackham]

I read that armour AC penalty only affects AC, not to hit rolls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought they fixed that in TSL.

[Objulen]

My main character rarely gets to use all his attacks with a DS saber and master speed because most enemies are dead after half a round (2 attacks). If only KOTOR had cleave like NWN, the extra attacks might actually be useful.

 

You can change out Flurry for Power Attack, getting more damage in four attacks than five normal attacks. Either way, properly working Wookie rage makes Hanharr a much better character.

 

As for Cleave, those extra attacks are automatic and independant of your normal attacks.

[Aewulf]

Don't forget that Mira is the best-ranged fighter in the game if you take additional levels in scout. I took her to level 18 scout and then switched to Jedi. She performed rather well in all scenarios with upgraded blasters and rapid shot.

[Falconhurst]

Level 18 in scout gets you targeting 5 (+5 attack with ranged weapons, but no damage bonus). I'd much rather have precise shot 5 (+8 ranged damage), as I haven't found that my high-level characters miss much at all.

 

I switched Mira over to jedi at level 6 or 7 (I give her 1 level just for stealth), but she ends up sitting around anyway. With her crappy WIS and CHA, she will have almost no force points and few powers if you make her a jedi in the late game. If the +5 to hit with blasters is worth giving up 12 jedi levels with accompanying force powers and points, more power to you. Just goes to show that any tactic will do in a game this easy.

 

An argument could perhaps be made that Visas, HK-47, and Atton have as much or more ranged potential than Mira, maybe even Mandalore too as he can soak up a lot more damage, is harder to hit, and gets a lot more feats.

 

Edit: Dan Simson's FAQ states that Mira "gains feats on the Precise Shot tree for free." In my game, I leveled her up as a Jedi and she did not gain any precise shot feats beyond the Precise Shot I that she comes with. Has anyone found that Mira in fact gets precise shot feats free (not the targeting you get free as a scout that adds attack, but precise shot that adds damage)? Do you get these if you level her up as a scout but not as a jedi?

 

If this were true, it would at least provide a little offset to her being such a sucky character in other ways and would make me think at least a little less poorly of her. Still not as good as Bao-Dur's laser remote or Atton's can't-die feats, but at least something of worth.

[palathas]

The most likely reason they made Mandalore's stats as they did was they probably had ROLEplaying in mind and not ROLLplaying.

[Falconhurst]

>The most likely reason they made Mandalore's stats as they did was they >probably had ROLEplaying in mind and not ROLLplaying.

 

Not clear why they have to be mutually exclusive, however. IMO, having well-designed characters with stats that fit their description and personality is conducive to ROLEplaying. The grand leader of all mandalores with no combat ability over 15, stats he doesn't need, and a dexterity implant that he can't possibly use, is not, as the roleplaying thoughtprocess of the design is not readily explainable.

 

Why attribute to roleplaying what is better attributed to mere oversight in a rush to get an unfinished product out the door?

[palathas]

I haven't actually played the PnP d20 Starwars but I have played a lot of other PnP d20 systems. Humans have average stats of 10 so a 15 is quite heroic. I have played PnP Starwars with the d6 system. Although Mandalorians would prossibly have a higher Str and or Con than humans due to their war like nature.

 

When you say that Dex is useless because of the Dex bonus restriction of the armour that only applies to AC, not every other Dex reliant skill / bonus.

 

As a leader he would certainly need a reasonable Int to analyse battlefield situations quickly and rationally.

 

He'd also need the higher Wis to represent willpower and perception which is what it applies to game mechanic wise and to also help make his decisions the right one and not something rash.

 

The Cha is for personal presence and personality. Without it he'd probably be too introverted or abbrasive to be much of a leader.

 

His high Str and Con would represent his physical power and hardiness that the Mandalorians respect.

 

If you look at him from a Rollplaying or number crunching perspective then you're right. You could have just left all his non physical stats at 10 or less and put the other points into the physical stats. As it is, it looks as if he'd only be all that good as a melee or backup ranged character. Not sure about KotoR2 but the Mandalorians have regeneration in Kotor 1 so the lack of AC could be countered by that.

[Osiris]

His stats should be as good as Canderous' stats at level 20. In fact, he should be level 20.

[Falconhurst]

Interesting. Thanks to everyone for the posts.

 

My point is that of all the NPCs, only two -- Mandalore and Bao-Dur -- have no attributes 16 or above. There are NPCs with 20s, 19s, 18s, and lots of 16s. Bao-Dur at least has attributes he can use, while Mandalore does not. In the context of his colleagues or teammates, the other NPCS (who, I might add, have no such pretentious claims to power, strength, or fame), Mandalore seems distinctly deficient to me. Mandalore's combat attributes seemed low for the heroic overlord of the battle-hardened Mandalorian people. Perhaps not low if he were a run of the mill Mandalorian sergeant or lieutenant, but low in view of what he is made out to be. Made worse by the fact that many of the attributes he has, he cannot use in any meaningful way.

 

But then again, you start the game as the big hero of the Mandalorian wars, the exiled Jedi, at level 1...so Mandalore's build, while I view it as definitely substandard *in the context of his role-playing character* is perhaps not the strangest thing in the game.

[DarthNihilus]

Handmaiden jedi with double bladed lightsaber is unstoppable...almost as better as the PC(which for me is always male/Guardian/Weaponmaster/Marauder- in the end I get a walking tank with ONE lightsaber only(love that part) AND with devastating Force Powers..can Force Lightning forever even as LS)

Rest are no concern to me...

Bao-Dur has slow progression and his clothes suck..the hand is cool but not advised - too bad about his Guardian class

Visas is weak - still that flurry can do some decent damage

Mira is non-playable since she`s the weakest of all

Atton...never played but from te testing in NAr-Shadaa is pretty weak

 

Handmaiden with power attack rocks and since she tends to use force jump normally doesn`t leave much for me

_______

I`ll update when I`ll test ALL of them on a higher level on one of the last worlds

[Osiris]

I guess you don't like Mandalorians then.

 

I love them.

 

I think they were one of the coolest aspects of the Star Wars KOTOR games. Not only do they tie the plot together, but they provide an interesting third "faction". It'd be boring if it was only the Sith and Republic.

[Zilod]

Kreia lvl3

STR 10

DEX 16

CON 16

INT 14

WIS 16

CHA 12

Points: 42

Balance: +12

 

Kreia isn't really as good as her stats look on paper.  Yes, the force bond with your Jedi is nice, but the main character doesn't really need it.  Kreia cannot gain any Two-Weapon fighting feats, meaning that she cannot use double-bladed lightsabers at all.  This means that her melee ability is much less than most other Jedi, in conjunction with very low strength.  She is a good force user, but that is all she is: she is terrible in melee or ranged combat and gets few feats.  I find that Visas makes just as good a force user, but has much better melee skills too.

I found Kreia special feat really usefull, it save you a lot of time when you are buffing your characters.

She is still the best force user, expecially if she stay neutral, with a good array of DS powers Kreia can also do a lot of damage or incap opponents, with various energy/kin protection she can add a lot of defence to the party and with the ability to "res" fallen comrades she can keep everyone up.

She is not very good in melee, but mostly due to lack of feats, not because she can't use a pole sabre.

I think that pole sabres are a bit overestimated, 1h can still do decent damage and benefit from +3 to hit, +3 defence, consider that with master speed and flurry you still get 4 attack/round instead of 5 with more chance to hit, so not a big difference in terms of damage.

I use her as a support force user (she is also a consular eheh) and i'm very satisfied by her skills.

 

 

Visas (lvl6)

STR 12

DEX 18

CON 12

INT 10

WIS 12

CHA 15

Points: 35 base + 1 stat increase (DEX)

Balance: +5

 

IMO, perhaps the best all-around Jedi.  Although her INT is nothing to write home about, as a sentinel Visas gets 3 skill points per level, allowing her to make a significant contribution.  With lighsaber finess she is quite good.  Also a very reasonable force user.  Even as a LS player, Visas has plenty of force points at higher levels to use level 3 force lightening and other damaging DS powers.  Reasonable feat and skill progression.

 

Visas has no armor skills, so I find it necessary to put at least one feat into armor so that she can use decent Jedi robes.

 

Edit: I may need to be a little more modest about Visas.  Her CON is only 12, largely precluding her from ever being able to use the best implants (she can get 18 CON at the earliest only at level 28).  CHA really isn't that useful.  Her only shining attribute is Dexterity, which has some major limitations in TSL.  It is the easiest of all the attributes to buff, and it also suffers from inherent DEX bonus caps with almost any kind of armor, including most jedi robes that provide any defensive benefit at all.  I still think Visas is pretty good, but still not ideal in some ways.

 

As a non-guardian, she can't get LS specialization (+2 damage). 

You don't need armor skill for her, jedi robes don't use light armor, they are robes. There are some light armors that let the jedis use force powers, but due to the high dex i think is better to use a good normal robe.

 

also note that the to hit bonus on sabre is mainly on dex, not str, so you don't need to get lightsabre finesse as her main melee skill is dex... str modify just the damage.

 

I really like Visas too, is a powerfull force user, second only to Kreia and a good melee due to her high dex, probably with Kreia my fav jedi too.

 

 

Handmaiden (lvl 6)

STR 14

DEX 16

CON 14

INT 10

WIS 10

CHA 14

Points: 30 +1 stat increase (DEX)

 

Handmaiden is balanced but her bonus feat, Echani fighting, is all but useless as she will essentially never fight unarmed, except against you.  As a soldier/guardian, she gains only 1 skill point/level.  Makes an OK jedi but there are better.

She makes a good jedi, strong melee and can still be a decent force userm i agree that a good sabre is better than melee, but in the beginning, when there are not many sabres around, is nice to have the unarmed option.

 

 

Mandalore (level 5)

STR 15

DEX 12

CON 15

INT 12

WIS 12

CHA 12

Points: 30 base +1 stat increase (STR or CON)

 

While Mandalore looks balanced on paper, in practice he is one of the worst designed characters.  He has a DEX of 12 which is completely worthless as his armor, which allows a dex bonus of 0, cannot be removed.  As a soldier with no potential to be a Jedi, the WIS and CHA are worthless.  As a soldier with 1 base skill point per level, a 12 int is also fairly worthless -- there are much better characters for skills without sacrificing stats.  So the DEX, INT, WIS, CHA are all worthless, essentially 8 lost stat points.  What he needs are STR and CON which are only 15 even as a level 6 character -- also very poor. 

 

Mandalore seems to get more feats than most soldiers, he gets 1 a level with only a few exceptions.  As such, the feats are wasted on melee fighting because there aren't that many useful melee feats to take.  Obviously he can't compete with double-bladed lightsaber users anyway.  So I ended up making him into a ranged character and taking advantage of all his feats to get close combat 2, precise shot 5, master 2WF,  and blaster pistol specialization for the bonuses.  He can dish out a reasonable amount of ranged damage, the big catch being that with an effective DEX bonus of 0 and the impossibility of augmenting this because of his armor, he is obviously disadvantaged compared to ranged users with decent DEX.

 

I just can't figure out what the designers were thinking with Mandalore.  Hard to believe he is the "leader" of the Mandalorians with an atrocious, self-defeating design like this.

Mandalore can be a strong melee char, and a decent ranged one, i don't use him too much, mostly due to lack of deflection.

Note that is it true that his armor have 0 dex, but with power ups you can raise it.

there is a line of power ups that give +def +dex bonus, so his armor can go at something like +14 defence +3 dex that is not bad.

 

 

T3M4 (level 3)

STR 10

DEX 15

CON 14

INT 16

WIS 10

CHA 10

Points: 30 base

 

Good for tech skills, not so good for combat, no force.  But some of the Jedi (Bao-Dur, Visas, main character) have enough skills that I have found little use for T3M4 outside of the times when you are required to use him.

i haven't used it too much, but at low levels it can still be a good choice, his shock arm(?) can do decent damage and have not uses, he can equip also a shield that have not uses, also is good array of skills make him a nice addition for low level groups, expecially if you are not a sentinel. at higher level i prefer a good "skill" jedi.

 

 

Atton lvl3

STR 12

DEX 16

CON 14

INT 10

WIS 10

CHA 12

Points: 28 base

Balance: -2

 

Although Atton has a slightly disadvantaged stat allocation, his "get up and fight" feat even when heavily wounded is one of the best.  I took him to level 7 as a scoundrel and switched him to Jedi with stasis powers.  This combo immobilizes enemies, and then he gets a +4d6 sneak damage with every hit from his scoundrel levels.  He needs lightsaber finess and has poor strength. 

 

Overall, Atton seems to balance out and is a reasonable design. Not the best, not the worst.

a jedi Atton get benefits from high dex and the ability to use the scoundrel gloves (+5 dex), due to his dress and the ability to get high dex he can be very good in defence and good in offence too, as with high dex he will have a good to hit bonus (again no sabre finess needed).

His special feat can be really usefull in bad situations. Imo a good choice for a melee jedi.

 

 

Mira (lvl 6)

STR 10

DEX 16

CON 12

INT 14

WIS 11

CHA 10

Points: 25 base + 1 stat increase (DEX).

Balance: -5 points, this is as bad as it gets

 

Mira is completely sucky, very substandard.  She can be a Jedi, but I find no use for her.  Her unique skill (doesn't set off mines) is fairly worthless.  Her melee damage is terrible (STR 10) and she makes a poor lightsaber user.  Her CON is low and so she can never use the best implants.  Her WIS and CHA are low so she is a poor force user.  By far the worst of the Jedi.

Mira is mostly a "skill" jedi, she have an awesome array of skills that can be used in every situation, the best "skill" jedi, usefull is your char have not many skill points to allocate.

To be a force user she need tons of power ups, but she can be a decent melee due to her high dex, also don't underestimate her rocket launcher that can be a good situational weapon. (even if generally all combats are about raw damage and not much strategy )

Probably a boost in cha or wis will be welcome to, to be able to use her even as force support, but even now she can turn out to be a usefull, but not powerfull, group member.

[Falconhurst]

>You don't need armor skill for her, jedi robes don't use light armor, >they are robes. There are some light armors that let the jedis use >force powers, but due to the high dex i think is better to use a good >normal robe.

 

The Jal Shey Neophyte armor (+3 def, +4 max dex, +1 cha) is the best force-allowing clothing or armor I've found so far and it requires light armor skill. If it weren't for the sucky randomized loot & merchant system, maybe I would have good robes and wouldn't have to train Visas in light armor. I had to simply because the plain Jedi and Padawan robes are not as good as the Jal Shey.

 

I hope that will change later in the game, but unfortunately it is difficult to depend on finding any of the better items that people have mentioned -- upgraded jedi robes, scoundrel Dex+5 gloves, dominator strength +5 gauntlets, etc. -- none of that for me so far. It is tough to make good builds when you can't plan on reasonable items (like good jedi robes) being available.

[Falconhurst]

I just checked Mandalore, who I have made into a ranged character with precise shot (5), close combat (2), WS:BP, and master rapid shot/master power blast.

 

With upgraded Zabrak heavy blasters, he does 25-34 damage with the right pistol and 17-37 with the left (different upgrades). This is more average damage than any of my other characters currently inflict with melee weapons or even lightsabers. I have no melee or lightsaber weapons with minimum damage anywhere near that high, even with excellent strength and good crystals. And that doesn't even take into account the +12 he can get from power blast or the extra attack from rapid shot. With his armor, his defense is still good in spite of low DEX: he has 31 defense, while Visas, who I have buffed all the way up to 26 dexterity (+8 bonus) in a jedi robe, only has a defense rating of 27. In several battles, he has taken almost no damage while Visas has been completely knocked out.

 

So I stand by what I stated that Mandalore can and does make an excellent ranged character. I don't mean to slight melee, but the Obsidian people did a nice job in bringing ranged attacks -- which were really subpar in KOTOR1 -- up to snuff as an excellent, highly viable option through the combination of various feats (precise shot, targeting, master power blast) and upgrades.

[Zilod]

I just checked Mandalore, who I have made into a ranged character with precise shot (5), close combat (2), WS:BP, and master rapid shot/master power blast. 

 

With upgraded Zabrak heavy blasters, he does 25-34 damage with the right pistol and 17-37 with the left (different upgrades). This is more average damage than any of my other characters currently inflict with melee weapons or even lightsabers.  I have no melee or lightsaber weapons with minimum damage anywhere near that high, even with excellent strength and good crystals.  And that doesn't even take into account the +12 he can get from power blast or the extra attack from rapid shot.  With his armor, his defense is still good in spite of low DEX: he has 31 defense, while Visas, who I have buffed all the way up to 26 dexterity (+8 bonus) in a jedi robe, only has a defense rating of 27.  In several battles, he has taken almost no damage while Visas has been completely knocked out.

 

So I stand by what I stated that Mandalore can and does make an excellent ranged character.  I don't mean to slight melee, but the Obsidian people did a nice job in bringing ranged attacks -- which were really subpar in KOTOR1 -- up to snuff as an excellent, highly viable option through the combination of various feats (precise shot, targeting, master power blast) and upgrades.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree, ranged is still viable, at least until you don't get good crystals or power ups for sabres, then a sabre will be a better damage dealer.

 

but about Visas, consider that if you use master speed (fundamental for every jedi in my opinion) the defence go up by by 4, so actually your Visas have a "base" defence rating of 31 as your mandalore. That rating can be improved even more using other powers, but they are not so fundamental.

 

for the damage your mandalore is doing something like 2x 25-34 + 17-37 using rapid shot for an average of 86dmg/round

 

Visas with a standard 2-24 pole and flurry can do 5 attack/round so around 65/round, and just with a base pole whitout taking in account any str bonus or possible crystal upgrade.

 

My Visas, with just decent sabres (built with some stat crystals and not damage ones) can dish around 125dmg/round.

 

It could be interesting to see how Mira perform as a ranged char or even as a ranged jedi, due to high dex and int probably she should perform pretty well.

[Jeremiah]

Too bad Mira is gypped for her stats. Still she is pretty powerful. Decided to make her a blaster jedi.

 

She was definitely the one to send into the Korriban shyrack caves with all its narrow tunnels. I just left the PC and the other character by the entrance. Let Mira cast Master Speed and Used Master Rapid shot with two upgraded Watchman Blasters on the creatures inside. Very few of the tukatas and shyracks reached her position before they were mowed down.

[Jeremiah]

Edit: Dan Simson's FAQ states that Mira "gains feats on the Precise Shot tree for free."  In my game, I leveled her up as a Jedi and she did not gain any precise shot feats beyond the Precise Shot I that she comes with.  Has anyone found that Mira in fact gets precise shot feats free (not the targeting you get free as a scout that adds attack, but precise shot that adds damage)?  Do you get these if you level her up as a scout but not as a jedi?

 

If this were true, it would at least provide a little offset to her being such a sucky character in other ways and would make me think at least a little less poorly of her.  Still not as good as Bao-Dur's laser remote or Atton's can't-die feats, but at least something of worth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, she got the Precise Shot for free while Scout. I turned her over to Jedi after Scout level 13 (to get the latest Targetting or Precise shot feat). If I am not mistaken she had Precise Shot 3 by the time I switched her over (in addition to the Targetting feats).