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Chairchucker

Die, Kreia

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Gromnir:

 

Ahh, yes, the witch-hunt has begun.

 

Who, of the hundreds of people who worked on this game, should we point the blame at?

 

Answer. The project lead.

 

It's always the project lead. No matter what medium of entertainment.

 

Didn't like a movie. Well, it's the director's fault. Didn't like the last episode of your favorite television show? Well, it's the executive producer's fault. Didn't like KotOR II? Well, point your finger at Chris Avellone and say, "You little witch. I should burn you."

 

Whether he's a good writer or not is a moot point (and subject to scrutiny), but if you didn't like the game, there's where you need to point your finger.

 

am thinking that you misunderstand... a couple things actually.

 

for the most part we liked kotor2... is not like we is looking to blame somebody for the failure of the game... 'cause it were not a failure as far as we is concerned. however, there were a number of characters that was underdeveloped and there was some that had habitually BAD dialogue. if all was bad then we could simply accept that obsidian/bis folks can't write. if you not got writing talent, then you can't write good dialogue. however, some of the kotor2 dialogues and characters was very good. if some is good and some is bad then that means that the good writers did not help their fellows out... which is, in our experience, unforgivable. maybe they not have enough time or maybe they simply not have the inclination to help, but regardless, there were a big gap 'tweens the good and bad writing in kotor2.

 

the question of who is ultimately to blame does not concern us... though according to your reasoning we suspect that uncle fergie is actually where the buck stops.

 

*shrug*

 

also, we not think you know what the meaning o' witch-hunt is.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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First: The term "witch hunt" has developed over time to be nothing more than a slang term for the process of finding blame. Since you still seem to speak mid-evil, I thought I'd point that out to you, just in case you do not realize the year is 2005. :ermm: Ya never know. :-"

 

Next: I understand why you'd like to blame the writing staff, or, to be more accurate, "the good writers", but the fact is...

 

Because of the politics of business the team atmosphere on a project- any project, not just KotOR II- can't always turn out to be the dream team you might want it to be. And when it's not- things can get ugly. It is the project leads sole job- no, scratch that- responsibility to make sure that his project perserveres. Feargus was not the project lead, it's his job- as boss of the company- to tell the project lead what he wants, and then it's the project leads job to see this through for him. It is the project lead who assures quality in writing, or fails at that task. To offer you an analogy: You can't blame the money, Gromnir, only the person who handles it. And as far as Obsidian is concerned, Feargus is the money.

 

Personally, I think we're both in the same boat. We both like the game, but have been left wondering why, with the amount of good quality writing they did have in the game, they would allow no small amount of shotty writing to slip through the cracks?

 

My guess, "politics" got in the way.

 

When things go awry on a project the best people can do tends to be a bit less than what it can be when a project feels right.

 

So if you're wondering why the writing wasn't up to snuff, ask Chris Avellone. Ya never know, he just might tell you. o:)

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Definately. Not only were the lines she spoke amazing, but the *way* she said it was brilliant.

 

Kudos to the voice actress.

 

Sara Kestelman Apparently she has a bit of experience, although I've never seen any of these pictures before. Born 2 days before George Lucas o:)

 

Personally, I think we're both in the same boat. We both like the game, but have been left wondering why, with the amount of good quality writing they did have in the game, they would allow no small amount of shotty writing to slip through the cracks?

 

My guess, "politics" got in the way.

 

It happens in the industry all too often :ermm:

 

In the 1990's, I became "pen pals" with one of the most talented of the adventure game designers in the industry. The "suits" dictated a very quick "going gold" date and designed a stupid looking box for the game, even though the box the designers wanted looked way better. Later on, the game got mixed reviews; well designed, but rushed and buggy (reminds me of what happened to KOTOR2 in a way). It made me so sad because this was a great and talented designer who deserved more time to perfect their game.

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witch-hunt is not, nor has it ever been, simply a term used to suggest a process for the finding of blame. if is not used to describe the hunting of witches and warlocks, then it gots a very different meaning... is a tool of persecution.

 

...

 

and you is kinda silly if you actually believe that 1) fergie simply holds the purse strings at obsidian, and 2) the guy who holds the purse strings cannot be blamed for shortcomings of projects. these points should be self evident to 99% of folks who read this board, so we not feel any great need to respond further... 'less we get actual honest sounding questions on the issues. we gots an urge to makes an analogy to ownership/management of professional sports teams, but we know that such sports analogies tend to be useless with the present demographics on a crpg development board.

 

"Because of the politics of business the team atmosphere on a project- any project, not just KotOR II- can't always turn out to be the dream team you might want it to be. And when it's not- things can get ugly. "

 

huh?

 

maybe you reread that.

 

in any event, we not expect or want a dream team. will always be some writers who is better than others. will be some programmers who is better than others. will be qa guys who is better than others. is no excuse for incompetence. regardless, the thing 'bout a team is that when it works as it should, the results is gonna be greater than the sum of the parts would suggest... the level o' contribution of the least capable/able members is raised and the most profficient members production does not suffer. no game development house we know of is really a dream team... and things is not doomed to ugliness 'cause of it.

 

was iwd a dream team? was iwd a good situation for any development team? iwd were a short development cycle and the development team included a number of first-time or largely inexperienced developers. given just how little time and resources they had for that game, Gromnir was very impressed with the final product. the writing and dialogue in iwd (though having less of it than bg1,) were actually superior to bg1. biggest problem with iwd is that it were too successful... and fergie sacrificed other potential products in an attempt to get lucky with another iwd kinda game.. though we understand why he attempted to do so.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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She's an old hag. A horrible, evil, manipulative, whiny witch of a woman.

 

but she has all the best lines in the game. for that reason alone she is worth keeping 'round as long as possible.

Definately. Not only were the lines she spoke amazing, but the *way* she said it was brilliant.

 

Kudos to the voice actress. :)

 

Hehe, yeah, she was actually one of the best characters. I rushed through my first time through the game just so I could understand why everyone hated the ending (and yet, I understood the ending perfectly... >_< ) and would be able to perhaps post a review like all people are doing.

 

I like Kreia, even if she is a little quirky. She loved my female PC (I refuse to play men! Grr!) just like it turned out Visas, Atton, Sion, Disciple, Atris (!), and some others liked my female PC.

 

Needless to say, I was a little disturbed at all the love my glowing-with-good heroine recieved.


Fnord.

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Witch hunt:

 

I don't think the innuendo of social commentary by using that brash line was completely lost on you. ;) So let's just move on. Lest we anger the powers that be.

 

Feargus:

 

To lay blame on Feargus would be a moot point, because he in turn would just lay blame unto Chris Avellone- and we'd be right back where I pointed you. Whether analogies have a place on a forum or not, they're fun stuff, so here's another one: "You can't look down on a giant." :D

 

See, it's like this, Feargus is Chris's boss, he put Chris in charge of the design of this project. Hence: If you have a question as to why the writing on this project was shotty you need to ask him... E-mail them both, if you like. Chris would likely be the one capable of giving you a more detailed response.

 

He IS the guy in the trenches with the other soldiers, eh. (another analogy about writers- OMG!) Whereas Feargus is the general calling the shots from behind the scenes.

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See, it's like this, Feargus is Chris's boss, he put Chris in charge of the design of this project. Hence: If you have a question as to why the writing on this project was shotty you need to ask him... E-mail them both, if you like. Chris would likely be the one capable of giving you a more detailed response.

 

Shoddy writing? I don't know that I'd agree.

 

After having played through TSL and it's incredibly bugginess, I'd have to say that the writers were one of the few groups that did a fantastic job with KOTOR 2. Had it not been for the strength of themes, great plotting and incredible depth of character, I'd likely have given up after the third crash in an hour.

 

Of course, it also helps that the roles were very well cast in terms of voice actors. It would've been criminal to have such developed characters ruined by poor performances from voice actors unsuited to the role.

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I was very surprised at the voice acting. While in my mind from the previews I expected Bao-Dur and Mira to be different it turned out Kreia, Atton, Visas, and the Handmaiden were dead on from what you'd think they'd be like from the concept art.

 

Atris made me blink for a second, but then I realised that she was supposed to be a snobby, tragic, Bastila type character. Personally I would have made her soft-spoken like Vash, which would make her being full of anger and emotion more of a contrast. Of course I would have also loved to have seen flashbacks of when Kreia was young and training Revan, seeing her relationship with the other Jedi Masters. I'm assuming that the KOTOR2 avatar of the woman in white who is not Atris is a young Kreia and this might have been planned, then again that might be a Handmaiden concept.

 

All in all, the writing and sound in the game are the strongest parts. The engine though needs to be put out and shot :(

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Ah, yesss.

 

shoddy

 

Please forgive my Canadian. Errr- I mean, misspell.

 

And I kind of liked the writing as well, but I'm not having much in the way of bug issues with my game, so ALL of the little smidgeons of story that just don't sit right with me are eating away at my skull.

 

I cannot pretend indifference when it's so plain and simple: the quality in writing is far beneath that of the first game.

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the quality in writing is far beneath that of the first game.

Here, I'd have to strongly disagree.

 

Sure, KOTOR had a decent plot, but...It didn't really have any degree of great depth. In that aspect, it was pretty faithful to the Star Wars license; everything was clear-cut black & white. The voice acting was good in KOTOR, but I've always felt that the characters were fairly one-dimensional -- like cardboard cutouts.

 

 

Obsidian might not have done very well on the technical side of the game, but I honestly think they've managed to out-do Bioware in terms of story and character depth. As a matter of fact, this very thread shows how well they did in creating their characters. If Kreia wasn't as well developed as she was, noone would care enough about the character to dislike it or love it.

 

And of course, things aren't always black or white. Just look at some of the examples on Onderon, for instance. Or Nar Shadda....Or Dantooine. Everything has more of an interlinked feel to it. What you do for better or worse actually has an impact on the plot outside of your character.

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whatever retards say the game writing and voice acting isnt as good, go **** urself with a glass ****. i mean kreia has some really intellectual discussions with u, AND some dialogues funny, considering last time the key word was mucha sucka packa. at least now twi leks will ask u to touch their tentacles.

go ahead

 

its ok if u like it.

 

still kreia was a good character who was just fed up with the indignities of the universe and was tired of innocents dying for one person of things goals

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Anakin: Ten more minutes of Nickelodeon and then it's time for bed! :blink:

 

Karma:

 

You raise an interesting point by mentioning that the overall maturity level of the writing in KotOR II is far superior to that of the first game. It is.

 

But does the maturity level- more specifically the subject matter, and how it is dealt with- REALLY make for better writing? A more compelling story?

 

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the story. Depends on how it is handled.

 

Obsidian did a good job, but I think it's a tad below the original overall, and in video games this is unacceptable.

 

Unlike movies, video game sequels are expected to surpass the original. Obsidian made a valiant attempt, but it just feels wrong to me.

 

Honestly, I think I'm most critical of it's heart. It just feels wrong. Empty.

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KoT:

 

You've obviously lost me somewhere.

 

Like I mentioned in my earlier reply, I think the Obsidian's writers far surpassed with Bioware managed to do with KOTOR.

 

KOTOR, the storyline was decent, but...It never really seemed that the PC's actions had much of an impact on the world outside of himself. In addition to which, character development and progression of the NPCs was pretty much non-existant. For instance, the redemption of Juhani in KOTOR took place over what, three or four lines of dialogue in the middle of the duel on Dantooine? Even the outcome of the murder trial mid-game was disconnected from any lasting effect on the plot..

 

But the worst offenders in KOTOR were the NPCs. Each was pretty flat and lifeless. You had the mandatory scoundrel/smuggler/Han Solo (Carth), the wise-cracking droid, the tormented Jedi, etc. None of them really were developed beyond their archetypes.

 

In contrast, KOTOR 2's NPCs were extremely fleshed-out. They all had their own stories to tell and their own rounded personalities which were developed and explored over the course of the game. They were believable as people with that bit of "larger than life" quality that made them interesting. They existed as separate individuals, rather than simply as combat support.

 

A great example is travelling around Nar Shadda with the Handmaiden. Rather than simply trailing along, she's involved in what's going on. Her character develops through her questioning the player's motives in doing what they do and wanting to understand. You can see her grow from the sheltered innocent she is when you pick her up from Telos to a more mature and world-wise character by late game.

 

Sure, it's a subtle thing, but it's subtle touches that make good stories great stories, and interesting characters believable characters.

 

If only Obsidian's programmers had done half as well as their writers did, KOTOR 2 would've been a lock for Game of the Year for 2005.

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I do think the writing was better for KOTOR2, but I didn't find the characters in KOTOR1 lifeless at all. I think that part of the reason the characters seem more fleshed-out in the sequel is because they're far, far, far more ****ed-up than KOTOR1's characters were. That's not necessarily depth, although it certainly passes for it in many circles.


I am following my fish.

 

A temporary home for stranded ML'ers

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Karma:

 

Yeah, I think I may have misintrepreted your last paragraph there. :"> But I think I'm caught up to you now. :D

 

Some of your last post had to do with the influencing system...

 

The influencing system was great, nice little touch. But did it really add anything new to the game character-wise that wasn't there in the first? The characters really just seem to question your actions because they think they might want to be who you are. Or because they despise what you represent. You become either a rock star or a devil to them, or both, depending on your alignment. And that's really not much different than the way it was in the first game, now is it? They just turned it into a gimic here you can use to gain access to new dialogues and classes. It's nice, but it doesn't drive their characters any further out into the forefront, doesn't give them any new dimension. It just makes them depend on you more. And good characters stand on their own.

 

I appreciate all the extra interaction between the teammates and the world they are on, but mostly, I prefer that my teammates entertain me, the player. Tell me a good story, a joke. Tell me what you're about as a PERSON and maybe I'll click on you to talk to again. The characters of this game acheived that, but to nowhere near the degree of temperature or originality they did in the first game.

 

If you truly look at the amount of entertainment the first crew provided, and then compare it to the second, does it all add up for you? If so, cool. Glad you liked it more than the first. It just didn't do it for me. To ME the plot and the characters just felt hollow, empty and lost... As I suspect it was supposed to feel this way, that's probably a compliment.

 

They might have been like cardboard cut-outs in the original, but they were a crew with fire and soul, and they found a purpose. And this game lacked that. SOUL. HEART. FIRE. PURPOSE.

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Aurora:

 

I wouldn't say they're far more screwed up than the characters in KOTOR, necessarily. I'd say it's more the fact that they come with their own backgrounds and secrets that adds to their character. But more than that, like I said in my earlier post, the characters in KOTOR 2 grow during the course of the game. Some of them are able to resolve issues in their pasts (Bao-Dur). Others simply grow beyond the naivete they begin with (such as Handmaiden), still others have to learn to come to terms with what they've been through (such as Visas). And of course there's Atris. So many conflicts and look at how she ends up....

 

KoT:

 

 

Yes, the influence system was part of it...But it goes beyond the mechanic. As above, it's the fact that the NPCs or "supporting cast" all have developed histories that affect their outlook and direction. It's something that I'd felt was missing from KOTOR. Sure, there was the brief quest with Bastilla's mother on Tatooine, but you didn't really have the opportunity to get to know the NPCs you travelled with to the extent you do in KOTOR 2.

 

Particularly noticeable is the plot. Sure, at first glance it does look a lot like a retread of KOTOR's, but it's the depth and continuity that really set it apart. In KOTOR, it never really felt like your actions had a major impact on much apart from whether you went dark or light. Each of the worlds was pretty much self-contained and isolated from the next.

 

This is where I thought KOTOR 2 really excelled in their writing. One great example:

 

 

After the destruction of Peragus, Citadel Station is in crisis due to no fuel supplies coming in. A solution presents itself on Nar Shadaa if you chose to take that route.

 

 

Your actions carry over with a greater impact than KOTOR allowed. There's also a great example of the continuity once you reach Dantooine. You're shown that even inconsequential actions can have larger consequences.

 

The themes were also significantly more pronounced than KOTOR. Altogether, I thought KOTOR 2 was a considerably more "literary" experience than KOTOR and that certainly reflects well on Obsidian's writers.

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Rofl? What are you smoking? You can't even COMPARE the quality of writing between KOTOR and KOTOR II... it's like comparing Tolkien to Jordan.... with KOTOR II being Tolkien, of course.

 

From an abstract standpoint, the dialogue in KOTOR II was much more mature and emotional with a greater sense of purpose than the first.

 

From a techincal standpoint, the dialogue in KOTOR II used techniques such as parallelism and juxtaposition much more effectively. Sentence structure is much more varied in the second and feels more machievelian. Everything has much more impact in terms of tone and feel.

 

Even if you overlook these technicalities you will STILL have trouble comparing the two. KOTOR writing is much more vernacular and KOTOR II writing is much more theatrical.

 

Prove it to yourself if you don't believe me. Recite some of Bastila's more emotional lies, and recite some of Kreia's. Listen to the difference. It's there.


Word economics

To express my vast wisdom

I speak in haiku's.

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Dialogue:

 

Oh, it's abstract all right, I'll give you that...

 

But if it's driven then it's geared toward nothing.

 

Story:

 

I like Kreia as a character, but Kreia as the big bad:

 

Why is that again?

 

Oh, that's right, because they needed another big bad. And she fit the profile. She is your teacher, but she is also your hunter. It's irony.

 

Wanna know the big secret of the plotline? The big surprise is there is no surprise. That's the secret. It's irony... Alot of irony going on here.

 

 

Here's something to think about for you, White...

 

The Sith Lords is a murder mystery.

 

About who killed the force.

 

When the force hasn't even really been killed.

 

That's the story- dead to rights.

 

It's a paradox, a thinly-veiled attempt to make mainstream themes seem more mysterious. And it's kinda dodgy writing seeing as the force was never in any real danger of dying. Skilled writing, but dodgy.

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I hated Kreia at first. Well, actually. I still do. She is a cold, undermining, manipulative witch.

 

But at the end, I had a grudging respect for her.

 

Maybe it was her attempt to break out of the determinist lock of the SW universe, that maybe there was something outside of the Force, the great balancing act of the galaxy.

 

If she had succeeded, in a way, it's declaring her freedom against it all.

 

But then again, she would have destroyed the galaxy..

 

Hated her, but I still respected her.

 

 

 

 

As for the writing between KOTOR1 and 2? I liked TSL's writing better. It just felt more like a reflection of how the SW universe works.

 

I don't try to excuse the mistakes in the ending, or however it worked out. I know that LA boned them on the scheduling, but it just irritates me when people look at the story and claim that it's terrible. They did a really good job.

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:: TSL is nothing more than a pretentious mystery story ::

 

 

Hey, some people appreciate a story not told in black and white with a bit of abstract depth, other people like reading the Hardy Boys. We all have different tastes.


Word economics

To express my vast wisdom

I speak in haiku's.

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I never said it was pretentious, White. ;)

 

There's NOTHING self-important about this game, and there are definately no signs of the over-indulgence of self importance. And that just may be why it does not feel right to me, who knows?... This is Star Wars! Yet it does not reek of the cheese!... I think I like this exposition of the game actually, so please don't think I'm complaining about it. I'm just wondering about this myself... Frankly, I don't think the game found it's center. It looked inside and was empty.

 

Hardy Boys = Deja Vu

 

You joke re-hasher! :D :huh:;)

 

At least these "Hardy Boys" stories build to sensible conclusions, man. :D Especially the ones that are written by writers who seek truth in their words. Dashiell Hammett, Elmore Leonard. GREAT WRITERS.

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