Revan or Vader

[DarthReliguim]

No he didn't.

[CWASI]

Revan might have been the better general of the two, but Vader's The Chosen One.

 

Besides, Vader brought down the Republic and made the Empire. Then, he defeated Palpatine and brought down the Empire. Not bad for one person.

 

Besides, Revan couldn't even have stopped Bastila, who wasn't even a Level 6 Sentinel yet. Vader never would have gotten his memory wiped.

[DarthReliguim]

True true.

[cewekeds]

So vader is unstable. First he destroy the rep. then he destroy empire. beside he only beat Palpatine because he surpised him.

 

Malak is the one to take down Revan. Bastila just happen to be there. Beside Revan was fighting and fought how many jedi/sith at the same time. Vader only attacks when jedi by himself. Hell vader had problems with old obi. Vader only won because obi let him.

 

Vader was dog good in a fight. Revan was a master and had others do his dirty work.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Once Vader has served his purpose of bringing balance to the force he's pretty much done with his destiny.

 

I dont think Qui Gon quite realised how it was going to work when he found him. Or perhaps he did which was why he didnt go all glowy ghost when he died.

[Ulicus]

"Whine as he might, he survived a fall into lava. Revan almost died by a laser shot."

 

Urm... several TURBOLASER shots... from a Indictor class ship... yeah, thats your average blaster...

 

<_<

 

The question is: Revan vs Vader.

 

The answer is Revan would Win. Do I think this makes Vader any less badass? No, considering he is half-machine the fact he has anywhere near as much power as he does is incredible.

 

If the question was Revan vs Anakin

 

The answer would be "long drawn out duel but Anakin would win in the end, unless he messes up like he does in the Obi-Wan duel."

 

Vader lost a lot of power in the Force when he became half-machine. Direct Lucas quote:

 

"I mean Anakin could have done it by himself but he's lost a lot of power in the Force and now he needs Luke to overthrow the Emperor"

 

Whether or not you think midichlorians are good or bad (and honestly I think you're just being idiotic if you don't think midichlorians can exist alongside a 'spiritual' Force, since they clearly can and do - they're only friggin conduits, get over it) the fact is that the Force is generated by living things, and machinary no matter which way you look at it, is not living.

 

Anakin had the potential to become the most baddest, Neo/Superman-like Jedi in the galaxy. It was unrealised, but his destiny was to restore balance and he did.

 

Speaking of, does anyone else think that the Force is going to become "unbalanced" due to events in KotOR III? Probably involving Revan and the Exile... and their respective natures and how they conflict.

 

I totally agree with the person who said we should have gotten to see the Anakin "Hero without Fear"

 

it seems we get the crap parts.

 

Kid

 

Whiny Teenager

 

then finally a "good"(read: evil) one at the end.

 

Tho I do enjoy the prequels, i can't help myself- they have lightsabers :D

[cewekeds]

As strong as Vader was in the force he lacked vision. He rushed himself and never became the sith/jedi master he could have been.

 

Revan was strong in the force and took the time to learn all he could.

 

Anakin strong in the force but unfocus. Revan would have won.

 

Vader weaker in the force more focus Revan still would have won.

[Darth_Radnor]

"Whine as he might, he survived a fall into lava. Revan almost died by a laser shot."

 

Urm... several TURBOLASER shots... from a Indictor class ship... yeah, thats your average blaster...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Comparably, when he was inside the bridge of his ship. When you can throw around thermal detonators around in the Leviathan, the turbolaser blast couldn't do so much damage can it?

 

 

The question is: Revan vs Vader.

 

The answer is Revan would Win. Do I think this makes Vader any less badass? No, considering he is half-machine the fact he has anywhere near as much power as he does is incredible.

 

 

If the question was Revan vs Anakin

 

The answer would be "long drawn out duel but Anakin would win in the end, unless he messes up like he does in the Obi-Wan duel."

 

Vader lost a lot of power in the Force when he became half-machine.  Direct Lucas quote:

 

"I mean Anakin could have done it by himself but he's lost a lot of power in the Force and now he needs Luke to overthrow the Emperor"

 

When I last saw ROTJ it was Vader who killed the Emperor.

 

Whether or not you think midichlorians are good or bad (and honestly I think you're just being idiotic if you don't think midichlorians can exist alongside a 'spiritual' Force, since they clearly can and do - they're only friggin conduits, get over it) the fact is that the Force is generated by living things, and machinary no matter which way you look at it, is not living.

 

Sure, they're the coolest idea ever. I love the way Lucas transformed the mystical energy field present in all living things to how many bacteria there are in your blood. I love the fact that you are predetermined how strong you are.

 

To quote a very profilic (cough Volourn cough) poster on these forums:

"R00fles!"

 

Anakin had the potential to become the most baddest, Neo/Superman-like Jedi in the galaxy.  It was unrealised, but his destiny was to restore balance and he did.

 

Speaking of, does anyone else think that the Force is going to become "unbalanced" due to events in KotOR III? Probably involving Revan and the Exile... and their respective natures and how they conflict.

 

I totally agree with the person who said we should have gotten to see the Anakin "Hero without Fear"

 

it seems we get the crap parts.

 

Kid

 

Whiny Teenager

 

then finally a "good"(read: evil) one at the end.

 

Tho I do enjoy the prequels, i can't help myself- they have lightsabers :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup. Totally agree with you. That's why when Revan goes DS i love his replies, like:

 

"Either I take your credits and then you die, or I kill you first then take the credits"

 

Add Jedi Thug to that list.

[Ulicus]

"Whine as he might, he survived a fall into lava. Revan almost died by a laser shot."

 

Urm... several TURBOLASER shots... from a Indictor class ship... yeah, thats your average blaster...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Comparably, when he was inside the bridge of his ship. When you can throw around thermal detonators around in the Leviathan, the turbolaser blast couldn't do so much damage can it?

 

 

Who said anything about comparing? I was simply pointing out that there is a subtle, yet oh so considerable difference between a turbo-laser and a laser. Not to mention that the shots probably blew up all the computers and machinary and crap around Revan and the strike team.

 

The question is: Revan vs Vader.

 

The answer is Revan would Win. Do I think this makes Vader any less badass? No, considering he is half-machine the fact he has anywhere near as much power as he does is incredible.

 

 

If the question was Revan vs Anakin

 

The answer would be "long drawn out duel but Anakin would win in the end, unless he messes up like he does in the Obi-Wan duel."

 

Vader lost a lot of power in the Force when he became half-machine.  Direct Lucas quote:

 

"I mean Anakin could have done it by himself but he's lost a lot of power in the Force and now he needs Luke to overthrow the Emperor"

 

When I last saw ROTJ it was Vader who killed the Emperor.

 

 

But was it a lightsaber/Force battle between a Sith apprentice challenging his master? *ponders* No. It was Anakin Skywalker grabbing Palpatine from behind and throwing him down a shaft whilst his master was considerably distracted torturing Luke.

 

So technically he did need Luke, but that's just me being pedantic.

 

The quote was in reference to Vader needing Luke's strength to stand a chance in usurping the Emperor.

 

Whether or not you think midichlorians are good or bad (and honestly I think you're just being idiotic if you don't think midichlorians can exist alongside a 'spiritual' Force, since they clearly can and do - they're only friggin conduits, get over it) the fact is that the Force is generated by living things, and machinary no matter which way you look at it, is not living.

 

Sure, they're the coolest idea ever. I love the way Lucas transformed the mystical energy field present in all living things to how many bacteria there are in your blood. I love the fact that you are predetermined how strong you are.

 

To quote a very profilic (cough Volourn cough) poster on these forums:

"R00fles!"

 

 

Ok, you seem I'm pretty stupid with the tone you're adopting so I'll switch out of jolly "forum/net" mode for a moment to go into the slightly (yet only slightly " ) more intelligent, "geek theory" mode.

 

Lucas did *not* transform the mystical energy field present in all living things to how many bacteria there are in your blood - they are the conduits through which the living things HEAR the mysterical energy field present in all living things. And the way I interpret it, you aren't predetermined how strong you are.

 

Qui-Gon says: "Midi-chlorians are a microscopic lifeform that are in all living things, they constantly whisper to us, telling us the will of the Force"

 

This is my take on midichlorians and it fits in fine with the above (and I sincerely doubt it will be contradicted in Episode III):

 

Midichlorians are 'attracted' to the Force, they congregate in areas where the Force is in high quantities. They are therefore found in high quantities in the bloodstreams of those who are Force sensitive. Think of them as moths to a flame, the brighter the flame - the more of them there are.

 

The more you train in the Force, the stronger you become with the Force - since you are increasing the intensity of that "flame", so more midichlorians congregate within your bloodstream, attracted to your Force strength and also making you even *more* sensitive to it. Thus the whole "predetermined" thing doesn't count for much.

 

Midichlorians are representative of natural talent - but everyone knows that practice makes perfect.

 

The reason not everyone can become Jedi is that not everyone is born with a high enough Force strength (and therefore midichlorian count) to hear the Force in the first place, so naturally they can't 'improve' this and make themselves stronger in the Force. If there is no "fire" to start with, you're not going to get any "moths" and not going to be able to develop enough to attract any. If there were no midichlorians, it would make no sense that not everyone could become Jedi - that was the entire point for their introduction

 

And if you say "yeah well some people are just stronger in the Force than others" - then you've just defeated the "I hate how you have a predetermined strength" part of your argument.

 

In Anakin's case, I compare him to Mozart. Mozart was a musical genius (as I'm sure everyone knows) and at an incredibly young age was better than people who had been doing it for years. Does this mean that with practice and dilligence someone couldn't become better than him? No. It just means that he was given a CONSIDERABLE head-start and wasn't likely to be overtaken.

 

Anakin was born with a Force strength that even the greatest masters hadn't achieved with all their experience, but that didn't mean someone couldn't surpass him (in theory) it just meant he had a very big advantage and wasn't likely to ever be overtaken.

 

When he becomes Vader, it is the equivelent of taking a master pianist and cutting off all the fingers of one of his hands. Could he ever become as great as he was? No, never - his god given talent and practice could allow him to become pretty good again, very good even - but all his natural talent and all his hard work couldn't make up for the fact that he had been mutilated and he could never be as good as he was.

 

Anakin had the potential to become the most baddest, Neo/Superman-like Jedi in the galaxy.  It was unrealised, but his destiny was to restore balance and he did.

 

Speaking of, does anyone else think that the Force is going to become "unbalanced" due to events in KotOR III? Probably involving Revan and the Exile... and their respective natures and how they conflict.

 

I totally agree with the person who said we should have gotten to see the Anakin "Hero without Fear"

 

it seems we get the crap parts.

 

Kid

 

Whiny Teenager

 

then finally a "good"(read: evil) one at the end.

 

Tho I do enjoy the prequels, i can't help myself- they have lightsabers :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup. Totally agree with you. That's why when Revan goes DS i love his replies, like:

 

"Either I take your credits and then you die, or I kill you first then take the credits"

 

Add Jedi Thug to that list.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah well, the "Thug Side" was just there for the GTA demographic... I wouldn't blame Revan too much for that.

 

Besides, I could make Yoda do all of that if I had control of him in KotOR. Also I tend to play 'grey side'... so no overt people bashing for my Revan More's the pity.

[DarthReliguim]

VAder could beat Revan with one hand and then mop the Death Star with his blood. i like Revan but all of you know Revan wouldn't stand a chance against a real Sith Lord.

[locomotiveman]

Even if in Kotor2 revan's a she, i always pictured revan's a male, beacause i played as one. So Revan, yeah.

[Ulicus]

Even if in Kotor2 revan's a she, i always pictured revan's a male, beacause i played as one. So Revan, yeah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan in KotOR 2 is whatever sex you want him/her to be.

 

It seems loads of people miss the conversation options with Atton... somehow

[Darth_Radnor]

Who said anything about comparing? I was simply pointing out that there is a subtle, yet oh so considerable difference between a turbo-laser and a laser.  Not to mention that the shots probably blew up all the computers and machinary and crap around Revan and the strike team.

 

The strike team? Bastila survived if you recall. She bound her life to Revan's so that he could survive. Without her he would have died. Anakin on the other hand fell into molten lava and survived. Guess which fate is worse.

 

But was it a lightsaber/Force battle between a Sith apprentice challenging his master? *ponders* No.  It was Anakin Skywalker grabbing Palpatine from behind and throwing him down a shaft whilst his master was considerably distracted torturing Luke.

 

So technically he did need Luke, but that's just me being pedantic.

 

The quote was in reference to Vader needing Luke's strength to stand a chance in usurping the Emperor.

 

Palpatine wasn't distracted. If you remeber he stopped shooting lightning at Luke and began firing at Vader. Which is why Vader died in the first place. Maybe he needed Luke for emotional strength or whatever, but he killed the Emperor fair and square.

 

Ok, you seem I'm pretty stupid with the tone you're adopting so I'll switch out of jolly "forum/net" mode for a moment to go into the slightly (yet only slightly  " ) more intelligent, "geek theory" mode.

 

I don't think of you as stupid. I was merely sarcastic.

 

Lucas did *not* transform the mystical energy field present in all living things to how many bacteria there are in your blood - they are the conduits through which the living things HEAR the mysterical energy field present in all living things.  And the way I interpret it, you aren't predetermined how strong you are. 

 

Qui-Gon says: "Midi-chlorians are a microscopic lifeform that are in all living things, they constantly whisper to us, telling us the will of the Force"

 

This is my take on midichlorians and it fits in fine with the above (and I sincerely doubt it will be contradicted in Episode III):

 

Midichlorians are 'attracted' to the Force, they congregate in areas where the Force is in high quantities.  They are therefore found in high quantities in the bloodstreams of those who are Force sensitive. Think of them as moths to a flame, the brighter the flame - the more of them there are.

 

The more you train in the Force, the stronger you become with the Force - since you are increasing the intensity of that "flame", so more midichlorians congregate within your bloodstream, attracted to your Force strength and also making you even *more* sensitive to it.  Thus the whole "predetermined" thing doesn't count for much.

 

Midichlorians are representative of natural talent - but everyone knows that practice makes perfect.

 

The reason not everyone can become Jedi is that not everyone is born with a high enough Force strength (and therefore midichlorian count) to hear the Force in the first place, so naturally they can't 'improve' this and make themselves stronger in the Force.  If there is no "fire" to start with, you're not going to get any "moths" and not going to be able to develop enough to attract any.  If there were no midichlorians, it would make no sense that not everyone could become Jedi - that was the entire point for their introduction

 

And if you say "yeah well some people are just stronger in the Force than others" - then you've just defeated the "I hate how you have a predetermined strength" part of your argument.

 

In Anakin's case, I compare him to Mozart.  Mozart was a musical genius (as I'm sure everyone knows) and at an incredibly young age was better than people who had been doing it for years.  Does this mean that with practice and dilligence someone couldn't become better than him? No.  It just means that he was given a CONSIDERABLE head-start and wasn't likely to be overtaken.

 

Anakin was born with a Force strength that even the greatest masters hadn't achieved with all their experience, but that didn't mean someone couldn't surpass him (in theory) it just meant he had a very big advantage and wasn't likely to ever be overtaken.

 

A good theory, but it's all speculation on your part. For all you know it could be bacteria living in your blood.

 

When he becomes Vader, it is the equivelent of taking a master pianist and cutting off all the fingers of one of his hands.  Could he ever become as great as he was? No, never - his god given talent and practice could allow him to become pretty good again, very good even - but all his natural talent and all his hard work couldn't make up for the fact that he had been mutilated and he could never be as good as he was.

 

Heh. A master pianist couldn't even play if he had his fingers chopped off. Atleast Vader can duel (pretty well I might add). A mediocre analogy at best.

 

Ah well, the "Thug Side" was just there for the GTA demographic... I wouldn't blame Revan too much for that.

 

Besides, I could make Yoda do all of that if I had control of him in KotOR.  Also I tend to play 'grey side'... so no overt people bashing for my Revan More's the pity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But Anakin fell to the Dark Side. He fell to the dark side more of necessity than anything. He never reached the level of thug. Whatever floats your boat

[Mihail]

What does this have to do with the story line of KOTORII? anyway..... I much prefer Revan, in a battle Vader would be down and out before the bell was rung.

[Seether]

REVAN!

 

The man was quick and had the galaxy by it's throat.

 

Vader 1) Never truly fell to the Dark Side

2) Was only an Apprentice

3) Turned on his Master for the light side

4) Lost the Executor and crashed it into the Death Star II.

[Ulicus]

Who said anything about comparing? I was simply pointing out that there is a subtle, yet oh so considerable difference between a turbo-laser and a laser. Not to mention that the shots probably blew up all the computers and machinary and crap around Revan and the strike team.

The strike team? Bastila survived if you recall. She bound her life to Revan's so that he could survive. Without her he would have died. Anakin on the other hand fell into molten lava and survived. Guess which fate is worse.

 

Whether or not Revan would have died or not without Bastila is debatable- I don't know either way, since Bastila stepped in to help him.

 

I'm not arguing that what Anakin went through wasn't worse, or that Anakin wasn't stronger in the Force than Revan- I'm arguing that a turbolaser is more powerful than a laser... arggghhhh!!!!!!! I'm simply saying the fact he was alive at all after such an event was pretty impressive. Besides, the Force literally *couldn't* let Anakin die... he still had a destiny to fulfill.

 

I've always assumed that Bastila was pretty much the only (maybe one of two) member of the strike team that survived.

 

But was it a lightsaber/Force battle between a Sith apprentice challenging his master? *ponders* No. It was Anakin Skywalker grabbing Palpatine from behind and throwing him down a shaft whilst his master was considerably distracted torturing Luke.

 

So technically he did need Luke, but that's just me being pedantic.

 

The quote was in reference to Vader needing Luke's strength to stand a chance in usurping the Emperor.

Palpatine wasn't distracted. If you remeber he stopped shooting lightning at Luke and began firing at Vader. Which is why Vader died in the first place. Maybe he needed Luke for emotional strength or whatever, but he killed the Emperor fair and square.

 

No, if I remember he was still firing lightning at Luke- Vader grabbed him whilst he was firing lightning at Luke, Palpatine started making an awesome gurgling sound and began zapping lightning into Vader but it was too late since Vader only had to take three steps before it was a case of bursting into a verse of "Palp-a-tine is falling down, falling down, falling down..."

 

Ok, you seem I'm pretty stupid with the tone you're adopting so I'll switch out of jolly "forum/net" mode for a moment to go into the slightly (yet only slightly " ) more intelligent, "geek theory" mode.

I don't think of you as stupid. I was merely sarcastic.

 

Fair dos. I just get defensive and since I usually use sarcasm in a context to imply I'm more intelligent than the person I'm addressing (because I'm an arrogant s.o.b), I tend to think other people use sarcasm in the same way.

 

*shrug* Character flaw of mine.

 

(also lateness+tiredness+also writing an essay tends to equate to my overreacting to the simplest comments)

 

Lucas did *not* transform the mystical energy field present in all living things to how many bacteria there are in your blood - they are the conduits through which the living things HEAR the mysterical energy field present in all living things. And the way I interpret it, you aren't predetermined how strong you are.

 

Qui-Gon says: "Midi-chlorians are a microscopic lifeform that are in all living things, they constantly whisper to us, telling us the will of the Force"

 

This is my take on midichlorians and it fits in fine with the above (and I sincerely doubt it will be contradicted in Episode III):

 

Midichlorians are 'attracted' to the Force, they congregate in areas where the Force is in high quantities. They are therefore found in high quantities in the bloodstreams of those who are Force sensitive. Think of them as moths to a flame, the brighter the flame - the more of them there are.

 

The more you train in the Force, the stronger you become with the Force - since you are increasing the intensity of that "flame", so more midichlorians congregate within your bloodstream, attracted to your Force strength and also making you even *more* sensitive to it. Thus the whole "predetermined" thing doesn't count for much.

Midichlorians are representative of natural talent - but everyone knows that practice makes perfect.

 

The reason not everyone can become Jedi is that not everyone is born with a high enough Force strength (and therefore midichlorian count) to hear the Force in the first place, so naturally they can't 'improve' this and make themselves stronger in the Force. If there is no "fire" to start with, you're not going to get any "moths" and not going to be able to develop enough to attract any. If there were no midichlorians, it would make no sense that not everyone could become Jedi - that was the entire point for their introduction

 

And if you say "yeah well some people are just stronger in the Force than others" - then you've just defeated the "I hate how you have a predetermined strength" part of your argument.

 

In Anakin's case, I compare him to Mozart. Mozart was a musical genius (as I'm sure everyone knows) and at an incredibly young age was better than people who had been doing it for years. Does this mean that with practice and dilligence someone couldn't become better than him? No. It just means that he was given a CONSIDERABLE head-start and wasn't likely to be overtaken.

 

Anakin was born with a Force strength that even the greatest masters hadn't achieved with all their experience, but that didn't mean someone couldn't surpass him (in theory) it just meant he had a very big advantage and wasn't likely to ever be overtaken.

A good theory, but it's all speculation on your part. For all you know it could be bacteria living in your blood.

 

Yeah, I'm aware of that - it's just how I choose to interpret it, since otherwise it destroys the mystiscism of the Force, as you said- and I sincerely doubt that was Lucas' intention. Plus, midichlorians are canon- therefore they're there no matter how much you hate them. Far better to figure out how they work in regards to the Force than to write them off as crap and therefore be saddled with crap.

 

When he becomes Vader, it is the equivelent of taking a master pianist and cutting off all the fingers of one of his hands. Could he ever become as great as he was? No, never - his god given talent and practice could allow him to become pretty good again, very good even - but all his natural talent and all his hard work couldn't make up for the fact that he had been mutilated and he could never be as good as he was.

Heh. A master pianist couldn't even play if he had his fingers chopped off. Atleast Vader can duel (pretty well I might add). A mediocre analogy at best.

 

Tsch. Just the fingers of one hand... ok, fine, just his little finger and index finger off his right hand. That better? I was just saying, "he was crippled, he's not going to be as great as he was"....

 

There are some pieces of music you can play one-handed I might add.

 

Ah well, the "Thug Side" was just there for the GTA demographic... I wouldn't blame Revan too much for that.

 

Besides, I could make Yoda do all of that if I had control of him in KotOR. Also I tend to play 'grey side'... so no overt people bashing for my Revan More's the pity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But Anakin fell to the Dark Side. He fell to the dark side more of necessity than anything. He never reached the level of thug. Whatever floats your boat

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*scans his post for the part where it said that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side*

 

Nope, I definately didn't say anything of the kind... Nor did I say Anakin reached the level of thug. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. All I was saying was that "thug-side" was just about catering to the GTA loving masses.

 

Edit: Ok, can someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong with the quotes- since I've never had this problem before (check previous posts to see my quote-posting glory) and I'm irritating myself *greatly* with this quote handicap I seem to have picked up.

[bob_the_kitty_hunter]

I say Revan because, although s/he's got less potential, Vader had his body mechanicalized and stuck into that suit to live (therefore limited in the force) before he could reach the level of uberness that he would have. Revan, as a darkside person, is ubar, and is probably one of the strongest force user of the time.

[Darth_Radnor]

Whether or not Revan would have died or not without Bastila is debatable- I don't know either way, since Bastila stepped in to help him.

 

According to Bastila's revelation on the Leviathan he would have died.

 

I'm not arguing that what Anakin went through wasn't worse, or that Anakin wasn't stronger in the Force than Revan- I'm arguing that a turbolaser is more powerful than a laser... arggghhhh!!!!!!! I'm simply saying the fact he was alive at all after such an event was pretty impressive. Besides, the Force literally *couldn't* let Anakin die... he still had a destiny to fulfill.

 

Exactly. Anakin suffered a worse fate and lived. He became Vader because he had a destiny to fulfill. Revan would have died on his ship if Bastila didn't save him. That should be proof alone that Vader is stronger than Revan.

 

I've always assumed that Bastila was pretty much the only (maybe one of two) member of the strike team that survived.

 

I actually think that she wasn't alone because I'm having a hard time imagining her lugging Revan's body throughout the exploding ship and finally loading him onto her craft by herself.

 

No, if I remember he was still firing lightning at Luke- Vader grabbed him whilst he was firing lightning at Luke, Palpatine started making an awesome gurgling sound and began zapping lightning into Vader but it was too late since Vader only had to take three steps before it was a case of bursting into a verse of "Palp-a-tine is falling down, falling down, falling down..."

 

Vader took enough lightning to kill him. Luke took enough lightning to survive. Vader killed the emperor even though he was weaker than Anakin. Vader thus fulfilled the Sith policy of Apprentice killing the Master.

 

Yeah, I'm aware of that - it's just how I choose to interpret it, since otherwise it destroys the mystiscism of the Force, as you said- and I sincerely doubt that was Lucas' intention.

 

I personally think that the Force should be very abstract, and trying to saddle it with definitions just ruins its meaning.

 

Plus, midichlorians are canon- therefore they're there no matter how much you hate them.

 

Can't deny that. I just hope Lucas does to Episode III what he did to II when he didn't even bring them up.

 

Far better to figure out how they work in regards to the Force than to write them off as crap and therefore be saddled with crap.

 

To each his own.

 

Tsch. Just the fingers of one hand... ok, fine, just his little finger and index finger off his right hand. That better? I was just saying, "he was crippled, he's not going to be as great as he was"....

 

Maybe not as great as he was, but still great.

 

There are some pieces of music you can play one-handed I might add.

 

On the piano? It would be extremely difficult. I doubt Vader had as much difficulty dueling.

 

*scans his post for the part where it said that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side*

 

This thread is about Vader, Anakin's DS Sith name.

 

Nope, I definately didn't say anything of the kind... Nor did I say Anakin reached the level of thug. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. All I was saying was that "thug-side" was just about catering to the GTA loving masses.

 

If you're going to compare Revan to Vader, might as well compare them in the DS context because both of them fell to the DS.

 

Edit: Ok, can someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong with the quotes- since I've never had this problem before (check previous posts to see my quote-posting glory) and I'm irritating myself *greatly* with this quote handicap I seem to have picked up.

 

It's screwed up for me as well.

[Goodwood]

If you notice in the Star Wars universe the further back in time you go from the original star wars movies the more powerful the characters.

 

Reven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bingo. We have a winner.

 

 

Kreia pretty much confirms this when she tells you on Korriban that compared with the ancient Sith from a millennium ago (e.g., Naga Sadaw, Marko Ragnos, Tulak Hord), both Revan and you yourself would be mincemeat.

 

[Ulicus]

(since the quotes thing is bugging me, I'll do it the old fashioned way)

 

Me: Whether or not Revan would have died or not without Bastila is debatable- I don't know either way, since Bastila stepped in to help him.

 

You: According to Bastila's revelation on the Leviathan he would have died.

 

She's self-important.

 

According to Bastila: "You cannot beat me here on the Star-Forge Revan!" and "You are but a shell of your former self Revan!" "Your mind was too badly damaged to ever be fully restored." (and look what happens in KotOR2... it all just comes flooding back to the guy)

 

Though I do think she saved his life... you'll see what I think could have happened had he been left on his own further down.

 

 

Me: I'm not arguing that what Anakin went through wasn't worse, or that Anakin wasn't stronger in the Force than Revan- I'm arguing that a turbolaser is more powerful than a laser... arggghhhh!!!!!!! I'm simply saying the fact he was alive at all after such an event was pretty impressive. Besides, the Force literally *couldn't* let Anakin die... he still had a destiny to fulfill.

 

You:Exactly. Anakin suffered a worse fate and lived. He became Vader because he had a destiny to fulfill. Revan would have died on his ship if Bastila didn't save him. That should be proof alone that Vader is stronger than Revan.

 

No, it's proof that ANAKIN is stronger than Revan... jeez.

 

Anakin > Revan pre lava bath

Anakin < Revan post lava bath

 

The way I see it though, it's nothing to do with strenght- the only reason Anakin survives is because he *has* to survive. The Force has to keep him alive long enough for him to get his treatment/new limbs. Usually it doesn't try to bend the rules too much, but because there's no-one there to save him, the Force steps in with a 'miracle' and keeps him from dying when he should have.

 

I'm a firm believer that it's not so much Anakin's strength that keeps him alive, it's just that his destiny has to be fulfilled before he can die-

 

It certainly adds more to his "Nothing can stop that now" statement in RotJ. He's realised that he's finally done his appointed task, now there is no need for him to live, so the Force isn't going to save him this time.

 

I am aware this is just a theory before you point that out

 

In the case of Revan, he might also *have* to live- but in this case, the Force only needs to work through Bastila to make sure he lives, it doesn't need to bend the laws of the galaxy to keep him alive. If all the strike team had died, then who knows, maybe the Force would have stepped in to give Revan a helping hand too.

 

The thing is: I see Revan and Anakin as parallels in different time periods. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the "Chosen One" prophesy directly comes out of something to do with Revan's actions in KotOR III.

 

As far as I am concerned, Revan is the Anakin of his day. So I generally don't like this topic, since I love both characters (I mean, my avatar should be proof enough that I think Anakin rules). The only thing that makes me say that Anakin would beat Revan as opposed to them being equal is that Anakin's dad is the Force itself. So, you know... kinda hard to top that. Unless we get a revelation about Revan in KotOR III... I mean, Kreia did say that in Revan she saw the "heart of the Force".

 

 

Me: I've always assumed that Bastila was pretty much the only (maybe one of two) member of the strike team that survived.

 

You:I actually think that she wasn't alone because I'm having a hard time imagining her lugging Revan's body throughout the exploding ship and finally loading him onto her craft by herself.

 

Well... you could say the same thing about Luke lugging Vaders bulk from the Emperor's throne room all the way to one of the hangers of the Death Star... heh.

 

Me: No, if I remember he was still firing lightning at Luke- Vader grabbed him whilst he was firing lightning at Luke, Palpatine started making an awesome gurgling sound and began zapping lightning into Vader but it was too late since Vader only had to take three steps before it was a case o bursting into a verse of "Palp-a-tine is falling down, falling down, falling down..."

 

You: Vader took enough lightning to kill him. Luke took enough lightning to survive. Vader killed the emperor even though he was weaker than Anakin. Vader thus fulfilled the Sith policy of Apprentice killing the Master.

 

Yeah he did- but again I ask, would it have happened if Palpatine had been prepared to face Vader?

 

Personally I think the guy SHOULD have been prepared. I mean, hell, anyone stupid enough to think "loyalty" still means anything after you've just tried to convince your right-hand man's son to kill him and take his place is a few birds short of a cukoo's nest- but the fact remains, Palpy wasn't expecting Vader to turn on him.

 

Me: Yeah, I'm aware of that - it's just how I choose to interpret it, since otherwise it destroys the mystiscism of the Force, as you said- and I sincerely doubt that was Lucas' intention.

 

You: I personally think that the Force should be very abstract, and trying to saddle it with definitions just ruins its meaning.

 

The Force *is* abstract. Midichlorians and the Force aren't the same thing. Force-sensitivity now has a definition, and a 'science' behind it true (so I can understand the annoyance if you wanted to keep this abstract too)- but the Force itself remains abstract.

 

But essentially what's changed with how it was before? We now know that organic beings have little tiny things inside them through which they hear the Force. That's it, lots of little conduits- the more you have, the louder you can hear the Force. Big deal.

 

Me: Plus, midichlorians are canon- therefore they're there no matter how much you hate them.

 

You: Can't deny that. I just hope Lucas does to Episode III what he did to II when he didn't even bring them up.

 

I don't think he will bring them up... and I don't think they should be brought up. They've served their purpose in the films: they are the means by which Jedi test for Force sensitivity and Anakin is the most Force sensitive individual in the galaxy. That's all they were there to show.

 

Me: Far better to figure out how they work in regards to the Force than to write them off as crap and therefore be saddled with crap.

 

You: To each his own.

 

I guess so.

 

Me:Tsch. Just the fingers of one hand... ok, fine, just his little finger and index finger off his right hand. That better? I was just saying, "he was crippled, he's not going to be as great as he was"....

 

You:Maybe not as great as he was, but still great.

 

Yeah of course, I've said Vader's great. But it made him worse than RotJ Luke and in my opinion would have made him worse than Revan.

 

Me:There are some pieces of music you can play one-handed I might add.

 

You:On the piano? It would be extremely difficult. I doubt Vader had as much difficulty dueling.

 

Of course it would be difficult, that's the point. I'm talking about Vader's force sensitivity, not his duelling skills.

 

Me:*scans his post for the part where it said that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side*

 

You: This thread is about Vader, Anakin's DS Sith name.

 

I know. My point is that I didn't say that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side, you just made something up randomly.

 

Me:Nope, I definately didn't say anything of the kind... Nor did I say Anakin reached the level of thug. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. All I was saying was that "thug-side" was just about catering to the GTA loving masses.

 

You:If you're going to compare Revan to Vader, might as well compare them in the DS context because both of them fell to the DS.

 

Again huh? What? I know they both fell to the dark side.

 

When I was ranting about how I was annoyed with what we've seen of Anakin in Eps 1 and 2 I wasn't even on-topic... I was just saying i was frustrated that Anakin wasn't as great as he should have been.

 

I mean, if we want to compare the Darksidedness of Revan and Vader then it's only fair that we compare "pre-mindwipe Revan" and Vader as opposed to "PC Revan", since he's whatever Tom, **** or Harry (I cannot believe I just used such a grandma phrase) wants him to be.

 

- Revan was a tactical genius. Vader was in possession of "tactical brilliance" (though we don't see it in the films particularly) , demonstrated whilst he was Anakin in the Clone Wars and during his time as the Emperor's right-hand. The rest is a debate about semantics. However, in my opinion, given the emphasis on it- Revan would be the better of the two in this regard

 

- Both culled the Jedi Order more or less. Revan used Sith assassins, Vader lived in the time of "there can be only two" and thus finished the majority of them off personally. Both Revan and Vader are equally "darkside and evil" they just do it in different ways. In fact, you could link Revan's tactics with Palpatine's- except Palpatine just had one big, black, armoured Sith 'assassin', whilst Revan had a lot of smaller ones. Vader "wins" this, since killing all the Jedi up-close and personal is much more manly.

 

- Revan was said to be in possession of amazing lightsaber skills. He beat Mandalore and Yusanis, the greatest mandalorian/echani warriors of the time. Canderous Ordo refers to him as "the single greatest warrior of our age", but that could just be because he idolises him. Vader in contrast is not as skilled with a blade as he was in his Anakin 'incarnation', no matter what way you want to look at it. Maybe Episode III Vader-in-suit is awesome with a blade and OT Vader's machine bits are just rusted or something.... we'll see.

 

- Revan was in possession of near-supernatural charisma and rallied a considerable portion of the Jedi Order to his cause. Vader took the Malak approach of "fear me". Not saying one is better than the other, this is just comparison.

 

So Revan is no less "badass evil" or "grand" than Vader, he just goes about it a different way. Sure, PC Revan can be a mindless thug, but that's up to the player.

 

I know it looks like I'm Revan worshipping- but I'm honestly not trying to be. I'm just taking the facts as they are presented in the game/movies and trying to compare based on them.

 

Based on all the facts it's clear that if it came to a fight of Revan vs Vader, then Revan should win.

 

I mean, of course, since Vader hasn't fufilled his destiny until he's killed the Emperor Revan technically *can't* win... heh. But statistically speaking he should.

 

If the question is "who do I prefer" out of Revan and Vader, then I don't really have a preference. It depends whether I'm watching Star Wars or playing KotOR.

 

When I watch Star Wars, since Vader is my favourite character I'm rooting for him and wanting him to be the best (despite knowing that he loses to Luke in RotJ, I have hope that one day he'll change the ending and beat that little punk to oblivion...)

 

When I play KotOR since Revan is *my* character, I'm obviously rooting for him and wanting him to be the best.

 

 

 

Oh and as for the "the further back you get the more powerful the characters are".

 

Yeah, true I suppose... except in the case of the Skywalkers. I don't care what you say, being directly related to the Force means you're stronger than people who aren't. Unless you know, you get a lava bath (which is why this debate exists :D)

 

But if you remember, Kreia was only talking in reference to lightsaber combat. I mean, it's just like what happened with Dooku and Obi/Ani in Episode II. He was using an ancient technique, they were using modern techniques and therefore got r*ped.

 

But Kreia ALSO says that there was a holocron of all those fighting techniques... and you get a holocron from monsters emerging from that tomb in KotOR1. So unless you gave it to Uthar for prestige I'm sure it wouldn't be too long before Revan's taught himself to fight just as well as those ancient lords.

[Alyt]

My Revan was near omnipotent and would have slapped Vader half across the Galaxy with his little finger. Some of you people's Revans sucked and would have lost, though(most notably the people who use moronic terms like "KotOR fanboys").

[Darth_Radnor]

(since the quotes thing is bugging me, I'll do it the old fashioned way)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not working.

 

She's self-important.

 

According to Bastila: "You cannot beat me here on the Star-Forge Revan!" and "You are but a shell of your former self Revan!" "Your mind was too badly damaged to ever be fully restored." (and look what happens in KotOR2... it all just comes flooding back to the guy)

 

Though I do think she saved his life... you'll see what I think could have happened had he been left on his own further down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

She only becomes self-important after she falls to the Dark Side. I have generally noticed that the Dark Side tends to inflate one's personal opinions of themselves (Bastila, Vader, Palpatine, Malak, Exar Kun, etc). And memories don't come flooding back to Revan, all K2 reveals to us was that Revan

remembered the True Sith and left to fight them

. He probably wouldn't have survived.

 

No, it's proof that ANAKIN is stronger than Revan... jeez.

 

Anakin > Revan pre lava bath

Anakin < Revan post lava bath

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's just your assumption. I don't think you can prove that Revan is greater than Anakin after the lava bath.

 

The way I see it though, it's nothing to do with strenght- the only reason Anakin survives is because he *has* to survive. The Force has to keep him alive long enough for him to get his treatment/new limbs. Usually it doesn't try to bend the rules too much, but because there's no-one there to save him, the Force steps in with a 'miracle' and keeps him from dying when he should have.

 

I'm a firm believer that it's not so much Anakin's strength that keeps him alive, it's just that his destiny has to be fulfilled before he can die-

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No question. He is the son of the Force like you mention later on.

 

It certainly adds more to his "Nothing can stop that now" statement in RotJ. He's realised that he's finally done his appointed task, now there is no need for him to live, so the Force isn't going to save him this time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe. Or he could have meant it literally, when he knew he was going to die and there was no stopping it.

 

In the case of Revan, he might also *have* to live- but in this case, the Force only needs to work through Bastila to make sure he lives, it doesn't need to bend the laws of the galaxy to keep him alive. If all the strike team had died, then who knows, maybe the Force would have stepped in to give Revan a helping hand too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A good theory, but what if Revan isn't the son of the Force? Can Revan's presence be that of the Force? What if he's just another powerful Jedi/Sith like Qel-Droma, not the son of the Force like Anakin? What if Bastila's presence was just coincidence?

 

The thing is: I see Revan and Anakin as parallels in different time periods. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the "Chosen One" prophesy directly comes out of something to do with Revan's actions in KotOR III.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As of right now K3 is canned, so I know nothing of Revan's actions.

 

As far as I am concerned, Revan is the Anakin of his day. So I generally don't like this topic, since I love both characters (I mean, my avatar should be proof enough that I think Anakin rules). The only thing that makes me say that Anakin would beat Revan as opposed to them being equal is that Anakin's dad is the Force itself. So, you know... kinda hard to top that. Unless we get a revelation about Revan in KotOR III... I mean, Kreia did say that in Revan she saw the "heart of the Force".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Like I asked before, could Revan be the son of the Force? Kreia, who is known to exaggerate, is merely describing a powerful Jedi, not the son of the Force? For me, Revan is a powerful Jedi like Qel-Droma or Kun or Kenobi; I doubt it, however that his actions echo that of the Force.

 

Well... you could say the same thing about Luke lugging Vaders bulk from the Emperor's throne room all the way to one of the hangers of the Death Star... heh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know the distance between the throne room and the hanger in the Death Star, but remember it wasn't completed and probably was less distance than it was meant to be. But I know the long distance between the bridge and the exit of an Indictor ship, and that is a fair distance to carry a heavily armored body.

 

Yeah he did- but again I ask, would it have happened if Palpatine had been prepared to face Vader?

 

Personally I think the guy SHOULD have been prepared. I mean, hell, anyone stupid enough to think "loyalty" still means anything after you've just tried to convince your right-hand man's son to kill him and take his place is a few birds short of a cukoo's nest- but the fact remains, Palpy wasn't expecting Vader to turn on him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could pose the same question in a different context: Why was Revan stupid enough to think "loyalty" from Malak when Revan, as his master, taught him the Sith policy of power and humiliated him by programming HK to call him "meatbag" all the time and not let him "use" the Star Forge? Revan wasn't expecting Malak to turn on him when he got boarded. Yet Malak claimed the Title of Sith Lord, which means that no matter how you get rid of your master, you are the next Sith Lord. The thing that foiled Malak's plan was that Revan was alive.

 

The Force *is* abstract. Midichlorians and the Force aren't the same thing. Force-sensitivity now has a definition, and a 'science' behind it true (so I can understand the annoyance if you wanted to keep this abstract too)- but the Force itself remains abstract.

 

But essentially what's changed with how it was before? We now know that organic beings have little tiny things inside them through which they hear the Force. That's it, lots of little conduits- the more you have, the louder you can hear the Force. Big deal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No. Like you said, a definiton has been added to Force Sensitivity, and adding new definitions loses the meaning of "abstract". Something at first at was intangible is now defined by "Force decibels" where you, at your root self, have bacteria that channel it for you. But like I said, to each his own, and you can respect them if you like, and I'll continue ignoring them.

 

Yeah of course, I've said Vader's great. But it made him worse than RotJ Luke and in my opinion would have made him worse than Revan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This rides on the assumption that you think RoTJ Luke is weak. But you need to remember Luke is the grandson of the Force, and he probably is as powerful as Anakin Skywalker was.

 

Of course it would be difficult, that's the point. I'm talking about Vader's force sensitivity, not his duelling skills.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If a pianist gets his fingers cut, then he couldn't feel them. Vader feels the Force (quite powerfully I might add, being able to transmit Chokes from one Stardestroyer to another). Like I said before, a mediocre analogy.

 

I know. My point is that I didn't say that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side, you just made something up randomly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What did I make up?

 

Again huh? What? I know they both fell to the dark side.

 

When I was ranting about how I was annoyed with what we've seen of Anakin in Eps 1 and 2 I wasn't even on-topic... I was just saying i was frustrated that Anakin wasn't as great as he should have been.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Anakin probably reaches the zenith of his strength in Ep 3.

 

I mean, if we want to compare the Darksidedness of Revan and Vader then it's only fair that we compare "pre-mindwipe Revan" and Vader as opposed to "PC Revan", since he's whatever Tom, **** or Harry (I cannot believe I just used such a grandma phrase) wants him to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fair enough.

 

- Revan was a tactical genius. Vader was in possession of "tactical brilliance" (though we don't see it in the films particularly) , demonstrated whilst he was Anakin in the Clone Wars and during his time as the Emperor's right-hand. The rest is a debate about semantics. However, in my opinion, given the emphasis on it- Revan would be the better of the two in this regard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No question. Revan is more intelligent than Anakin/Vader.

 

- Both culled the Jedi Order more or less. Revan used Sith assassins, Vader lived in the time of "there can be only two" and thus finished the majority of them off personally. Both Revan and Vader are equally "darkside and evil" they just do it in different ways. In fact, you could link Revan's tactics with Palpatine's- except Palpatine just had one big, black, armoured Sith 'assassin', whilst Revan had a lot of smaller ones. Vader "wins" this, since killing all the Jedi up-close and personal is much more manly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Can't argue with that.

 

- Revan was said to be in possession of amazing lightsaber skills. He beat Mandalore and Yusanis, the greatest mandalorian/echani warriors of the time. Canderous Ordo refers to him as "the single greatest warrior of our age", but that could just be because he idolises him. Vader in contrast is not as skilled with a blade as he was in his Anakin 'incarnation', no matter what way you want to look at it. Maybe Episode III Vader-in-suit is awesome with a blade and OT Vader's machine bits are just rusted or something.... we'll see.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vader killed Obi Wan and the other Jedi Masters during the Jedi Purge after Ep 3, whom I presume are more powerful than the Mandalore or Yusanis.

 

- Revan was in possession of near-supernatural charisma and rallied a considerable portion of the Jedi Order to his cause. Vader took the Malak approach of "fear me". Not saying one is better than the other, this is just comparison.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No one ever said Vader/Malak was subtle.

 

So Revan is no less "badass evil" or "grand" than Vader, he just goes about it a different way. Sure, PC Revan can be a mindless thug, but that's up to the player.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did Revan obliderate the whole Jedi Order? Did Revan command the fleet that conquered the Republic? No, Vader did.

 

I know it looks like I'm Revan worshipping- but I'm honestly not trying to be. I'm just taking the facts as they are presented in the game/movies and trying to compare based on them.

 

Based on all the facts it's clear that if it came to a fight of Revan vs Vader, then Revan should win.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And based on all the facts I presented it's clear if it came to fight, then Vader should win.

 

I mean, of course, since Vader hasn't fufilled his destiny until he's killed the Emperor Revan technically *can't* win... heh. But statistically speaking he should.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Um, you don't know that.

 

If the question is "who do I prefer" out of Revan and Vader, then I don't really have a preference. It depends whether I'm watching Star Wars or playing KotOR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think preference is the final victor here. You're going to keep thinking Revan is stronger, and I'm going to keep thinking Vader is stronger. Like I said before, to each his own.

 

When I watch Star Wars, since Vader is my favourite character I'm rooting for him and wanting him to be the best (despite knowing that he loses to Luke in RotJ, I have hope that one day he'll change the ending and beat that little punk to oblivion...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why do you think RoTJ Luke is weak? Emperor Palpatine fears him for a reason.

 

When I play KotOR since Revan is *my* character, I'm obviously rooting for him and wanting him to be the best.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think everyone does.

 

Oh and as for the "the further back you get the more powerful the characters are".

 

Yeah, true I suppose... except in the case of the Skywalkers. I don't care what you say, being directly related to the Force means you're stronger than people who aren't. Unless you know, you get a lava bath (which is why this debate exists :D)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Naga Sadow is extremely weak. Tulak Hord was invented by Bioware, although supposed to be a powerful lightsaber duelist. Ajunta has a weak will, and Ragnos is powerful but in spirit a weakling. And don't get me started on Exar Kun.

 

But if you remember, Kreia was only talking in reference to lightsaber combat. I mean, it's just like what happened with Dooku and Obi/Ani in Episode II. He was using an ancient technique, they were using modern techniques and therefore got r*ped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree.

 

But Kreia ALSO says that there was a holocron of all those fighting techniques... and you get a holocron from monsters emerging from that tomb in KotOR1. So unless you gave it to Uthar for prestige I'm sure it wouldn't be too long before Revan's taught himself to fight just as well as those ancient lords.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We may never know whether he gave it or not.

[Ulicus]

She only becomes self-important after she falls to the Dark Side. I have generally noticed that the Dark Side tends to inflate one's personal opinions of themselves (Bastila, Vader, Palpatine, Malak, Exar Kun, etc). And memories don't come flooding back to Revan, all K2 reveals to us was that Revan

remembered the True Sith and left to fight them

. He probably wouldn't have survived.

 

LS Bastila: I must admit I thought that maybe I was being tested to become a Jedi Master

 

LS Bastila: I am the commander of this mission I'll have you know

 

LS Bastila: My battle meditation ability has helped the Republic dozens of times.

 

Carth points out that she acts like a "spoiled child" right at the start. She does improve over the course of the game though.

 

KotOR 2 has

a holocron of bastila that says, "It is sonso many months since Revan's memories returned and..."

Though I might have got that wrong. That's what I remember it saying.

 

No, it's proof that ANAKIN is stronger than Revan... jeez.

 

Anakin > Revan pre lava bath

Anakin < Revan post lava bath

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's just your assumption. I don't think you can prove that Revan is greater than Anakin after the lava bath.

 

I know it's an assumption. The topic's about who I *think* is better. Based on what I've seen, Revan is the more powerful. I mean, just going from GL's comments on Vader (in the movie commentary) makes me think he's not that super.

 

GL: Vader has lost a lot of power in the Force

GL: The Emperor wants a new, better apprentice, I mean, he thought Anakin was going to be great but that kind of all went wrong and Anakin's no way near as good as he could be

 

Of course, given Anakin's amazing strength in the Force beforehand it's debatable as to just how "weak" this would make him, so yes, you could say that even crippled he is stronger than Revan. Generally I would think that Darth Vader is more than a match for all the modern era Jedi (except his own son) despite being crippled. I don't think he'd last long against Revan however.

 

I don't think Luke would either- but that would purely be to do with his lack of training in respect to Revan, as opposed to not being on par with him in terms of natural ability. IThough really I don't know how "Force strength" works being passed on... does the child inherit all the Force potential of one parent? the sum of half their parents potential added together?

 

This is where your abstract argument has a lot more merit Just makes things easier.

 

It certainly adds more to his "Nothing can stop that now" statement in RotJ. He's realised that he's finally done his appointed task, now there is no need for him to live, so the Force isn't going to save him this time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe. Or he could have meant it literally, when he knew he was going to die and there was no stopping it.

 

Well, of course he meant it literally. I meant that it just adds another level that the audience can interpret. Assuming the theory was right of course.

 

The way I see it though, it's nothing to do with strenght- the only reason Anakin survives is because he *has* to survive. The Force has to keep him alive long enough for him to get his treatment/new limbs. Usually it doesn't try to bend the rules too much, but because there's no-one there to save him, the Force steps in with a 'miracle' and keeps him from dying when he should have.

 

I'm a firm believer that it's not so much Anakin's strength that keeps him alive, it's just that his destiny has to be fulfilled before he can die-

*

 

 

No question. He is the son of the Force like you mention later on.

 

 

He is, but I don't think his survival was about him being the Son of the Force. I think his survival was about him having to complete his destiny. It wouldn't have mattered if he had no Force-talent, if the Force needed him for something else down the line, it wouldn't let him die.

 

In the case of Revan, he might also *have* to live- but in this case, the Force only needs to work through Bastila to make sure he lives, it doesn't need to bend the laws of the galaxy to keep him alive. If all the strike team had died, then who knows, maybe the Force would have stepped in to give Revan a helping hand too.

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A good theory, but what if Revan isn't the son of the Force? Can Revan's presence be that of the Force? What if he's just another powerful Jedi/Sith like Qel-Droma, not the son of the Force like Anakin? What if Bastila's presence was just coincidence?

 

I wouldn't expect he was a son(or daughter, heh) of the Force, I think that is a distinct "Anakin" trait... though who knows, maybe he's Anakin's ancestor. I've always assumed that Shmi herself was incredibly Force sensitive (in the original [and far superior, I'm shocked that they altered it] script for TPM this was overtly portrayed, but they left it out... she was also called Shmi Walka for some reason).

 

I mean, you'd have to have to be able to "feel the Force" to bear its child surely...

 

Anyway, I would say Revan was much more powerful than the likes of Qel-Droma. In fact, I'd go as far to say that only Anakin was superior to him: but this is purely because of my bias of Revan being "my" character. I accept that.

 

I was just saying that the Force has really potent destinies mapped out for some people and that it is impossible for them to escape it.

 

So, the Force has decreed that Revan is to be the one to stop the True Sith perhaps, therefore Revan cannot die until this occurs.

 

It's just an idea and is most likely wrong. Pure speculation.

 

The thing is: I see Revan and Anakin as parallels in different time periods. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the "Chosen One" prophesy directly comes out of something to do with Revan's actions in KotOR III.

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As of right now K3 is canned, so I know nothing of Revan's actions.

 

None of us do, just speculating. Plus K3's just on hold. As *if* they won't make a KotOR III. Lucasarts knows where the money's at.

 

As far as I am concerned, Revan is the Anakin of his day. So I generally don't like this topic, since I love both characters (I mean, my avatar should be proof enough that I think Anakin rules). The only thing that makes me say that Anakin would beat Revan as opposed to them being equal is that Anakin's dad is the Force itself. So, you know... kinda hard to top that. Unless we get a revelation about Revan in KotOR III... I mean, Kreia did say that in Revan she saw the "heart of the Force".

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Like I asked before, could Revan be the son of the Force? Kreia, who is known to exaggerate, is merely describing a powerful Jedi, not the son of the Force? For me, Revan is a powerful Jedi like Qel-Droma or Kun or Kenobi; I doubt it, however that his actions echo that of the Force.

 

Kenobi? Heh. He's above average at best.

 

Became a Jedi Knight at 25. Jedi Master at 38. By the time he was 57 (ANH) he was a pretty terrible duelist, at least in comparison with the likes of Qui-Gon Jinn, who at 60 was giving Maul as good as he got. Mace Windu is 50 in AotC, and he's being all awesome with a blade - and don't get me started on Yoda.

 

Also bear in mind that Mace Windu was the equal (supposed to be) of Yoda on the Jedi Council and had trained at least 3 padawans by the time he was 40 (I do think this is ridiculous EU trash however... as if you could be trained yourself, and train that many in so short a time), whereas Obi-Wan had trained up one padawan to knight level by the time he was 38.

 

Nahh I'm just messing. It can't all be done by age. I just take Obi-Wan to be a kind of slow and steady sort of guy, who didn't rush anything. I mean, he would have to be a pretty damn powerful Jedi to take on Anakin and win.

 

Oh... wait a second... he beat Anakin whilst Anakin was in his *prime*. Puts a whole new spin on the Revan vs Vader debate... hehe.

 

From now on "Revan would beat Anakin just because he's more experienced and would find some way to manovuer Anakin into lava".

 

 

Well... you could say the same thing about Luke lugging Vaders bulk from the Emperor's throne room all the way to one of the hangers of the Death Star... heh.

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I don't know the distance between the throne room and the hanger in the Death Star, but remember it wasn't completed and probably was less distance than it was meant to be. But I know the long distance between the bridge and the exit of an Indictor ship, and that is a fair distance to carry a heavily armored body.

 

It was built to be about 1.5 times the size of the first Death Star (I think :S). The fact that it wasn't completed wouldn't change the space between the throne room and the hanger- since those areas obviously *were* completed.

 

Second: The Death Stars are considerably bigger than Indictor ships. Even half built Death Stars.

 

I wouldn't say Revan was as heavy as Vader. That guy was a giant!!!

 

Doesn't matter really. I wouldn't find it hard to believe Bastila dragging Revan to a ship whilst the rest of the ship's crew ran around like headless chickens whilst Malak was blowing them up.

 

Yeah he did- but again I ask, would it have happened if Palpatine had been prepared to face Vader?

 

Personally I think the guy SHOULD have been prepared. I mean, hell, anyone stupid enough to think "loyalty" still means anything after you've just tried to convince your right-hand man's son to kill him and take his place is a few birds short of a cukoo's nest- but the fact remains, Palpy wasn't expecting Vader to turn on him.

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I could pose the same question in a different context: Why was Revan stupid enough to think "loyalty" from Malak when Revan, as his master, taught him the Sith policy of power and humiliated him by programming HK to call him "meatbag" all the time and not let him "use" the Star Forge? Revan wasn't expecting Malak to turn on him when he got boarded. Yet Malak claimed the Title of Sith Lord, which means that no matter how you get rid of your master, you are the next Sith Lord. The thing that foiled Malak's plan was that Revan was alive.

 

Well... you could. I don't argue that Revan messed up with that, I've invented my reasons as to why he wasn't able to sense Malak's betrayal- but they are just that, inventions and I wouldn't want to pass them off as anything from the KotOR "canon". Heh.

 

Those inventions aside, I think that Revan would have expected Malak to confront him directly. Since it was clear that what he taught him about the Sith way was about direct confrontation with your master to see who is the strongest. Also, Revan went to considerable lengths to hide just how powerful he was from Malak (according to the Chronicles anyway, and the same can be assumed from Malak's attitude of "you are stronger than you ever were during your reign as the dark lord" nonsense). But yeah, you're right. Revan's bad.

 

But, I don't think the Emperor ever would have been in a position where Vader could have overthrown him had it not been for the Luke vs Vader duel. I can't say that with certainty obviously, but the Emperor had survived 23 years with Vader as his apprentice without being usurped. That clearly shows that Vader didn't think he could take on his master. Since it's obvious he wants to (from what he says in Empire), it's not just a case of him being loyal.

 

I have to say though, I absolutely loved the last sentence of that paragraph: "The reason Malak's plan to kill Revan failed was because Revan lived"(paraphrased) beautiful! :D

 

The Force *is* abstract. Midichlorians and the Force aren't the same thing. Force-sensitivity now has a definition, and a 'science' behind it true (so I can understand the annoyance if you wanted to keep this abstract too)- but the Force itself remains abstract.

 

But essentially what's changed with how it was before? We now know that organic beings have little tiny things inside them through which they hear the Force. That's it, lots of little conduits- the more you have, the louder you can hear the Force. Big deal.

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No. Like you said, a definiton has been added to Force Sensitivity, and adding new definitions loses the meaning of "abstract". Something at first at was intangible is now defined by "Force decibels" where you, at your root self, have bacteria that channel it for you. But like I said, to each his own, and you can respect them if you like, and I'll continue ignoring them.

 

 

Yeah, but the *Force* is still intangiable. The *Force* is still abstract. It is the means living beings communicate with the Force that is no longer abstract, they can hear it because of the midichlorians whispering to them.

 

I certainly don't *respect* them.... I just can't see how you can ignore them because... well, they're there. So I've interpreted them in the least 'Star-Trek' way I can.

 

But put it this way: if midichlorians weren't around, there would be far more people in the Revan could beat Vader camp. I mean, everyone used to think Vader was badass, but you didn't get anyone thinking he was the most powerful Force user ever until after they saw TPM. (well except me... but that's just because I saw him deflect a blaster shot with his hand when I was 6 and therefore swore to love him forever)

 

Yeah of course, I've said Vader's great. But it made him worse than RotJ Luke and in my opinion would have made him worse than Revan.

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This rides on the assumption that you think RoTJ Luke is weak. But you need to remember Luke is the grandson of the Force, and he probably is as powerful as Anakin Skywalker was.

 

I certainly don't think Luke Skywalker was weak. He was the most powerful Force user in the galaxy! I don't know how 'Force in genetics' works, but they way I'd work it:

 

The Force + Shmi = Anakin

 

So, Anakin is in a way... "half Force" (I know that's a ridiculous thing to say, but you know what I mean right?) He has the Force's nose... and the Force is evidently a blond.

 

Anakin + Padme = Luke/Leia

 

Luke/Leia is therefore "quarter-Force". So not as powerful as Anakin was.

 

This is assuming you view it like "race" however. Like, how I'm "quarter-polish" because my grandad was polish. I'm not as polish as he was.

 

Which might not be correct.

 

The way "Force strength" is passed on might be like physical features. That is to say you either have your mum's eyes or your dad's, you don't have a mix. (Well I know nothing about genetics, so it's probably possible).

 

So, even though I'm not as polish as my grandad, I still have the same smile that he had.

 

So it could be a case of Luke and Leia inheriting *all* of Anakin's Force strength. I don't know. But until said otherwise *and they might test Luke/Leia for Force strength in Episode III* I'll assume that Anakin was naturally more gifted with teh Force than his offspring.

 

Of course it would be difficult, that's the point. I'm talking about Vader's force sensitivity, not his duelling skills.

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If a pianist gets his fingers cut, then he couldn't feel them. Vader feels the Force (quite powerfully I might add, being able to transmit Chokes from one Stardestroyer to another). Like I said before, a mediocre analogy.

 

 

Argghhh! Because you've not understood it.

 

Pianist= Anakin

Fingers= Midichlorians

Piano= The Force

 

The fingers are what allow him to play the piano. The midichlorians are what allow him to feel the Force. The more midichlorians he has, the better he can feel the force. The more fingers he has, the better he can play the piano.

 

So no more insulting my analogies! *cries*

 

And can I just take the moment once more to say that I am not in any way saying Vader is *weak*. Vader is incredibly strong in the Force. I just think that Vader is weaker than Revan.

 

I know. My point is that I didn't say that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side, you just made something up randomly.

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What did I make up?

 

You started arguing against a point I hadn't made... at least it seemed like that. *shrug* obviously doesn't matter, whatever it was.

 

Again huh? What? I know they both fell to the dark side.

 

When I was ranting about how I was annoyed with what we've seen of Anakin in Eps 1 and 2 I wasn't even on-topic... I was just saying i was frustrated that Anakin wasn't as great as he should have been.

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Anakin probably reaches the zenith of his strength in Ep 3.

 

I'd agree there. I just think it's a shame we don't get to see the Anakin between Episodes II and III in a movie. Personally I think Episode II should have been Episode I. (Obviously with some variations to accomodate the introduction of the characters).

 

I think Episode III might feel a little rushed. A damn lot to fit in- but I suppose it does show the true power fo the dark side, since it appears Anakin's fall isn't going to be as "slow" as everyone assumed. It's pretty much "well when you put it like that I'll happily go and slaughter a load of Jedi".

 

 

- Revan was said to be in possession of amazing lightsaber skills. He beat Mandalore and Yusanis, the greatest mandalorian/echani warriors of the time. Canderous Ordo refers to him as "the single greatest warrior of our age", but that could just be because he idolises him. Vader in contrast is not as skilled with a blade as he was in his Anakin 'incarnation', no matter what way you want to look at it. Maybe Episode III Vader-in-suit is awesome with a blade and OT Vader's machine bits are just rusted or something.... we'll see.

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Vader killed Obi Wan and the other Jedi Masters during the Jedi Purge after Ep 3, whom I presume are more powerful than the Mandalore or Yusanis.

 

I think Vader mainly takes them down via exceptionally strong Force abilities, but that is just my assumption.

 

Example: Jedi ignites lightsaber. Vader chokes him to death. Repeat until no more Jedi.

 

Darth Vader as seen in the films, could not take on a prequel Jedi in a duel. Yes, he's "holding back", but when Luke flips out, he could have "held back" and still stood his ground if he was still an awesome duellist. As it was, he gave a load of ground to a guy who was just thrashing around a saber wildly. Poor, poor fight scene.

 

I am incredibly annoyed that GL decided that "lightsabers are heavy, like the swords in Excaliber" for RotJ, then changed his mind for the prequels. What a fool.

 

Revan would also possess such strong Force abilities. The difference between the two is that Revan would be better with a saber than Vader, and certainly more nimble and able to pull of the fancy-pants moves.

 

I think Mandalore and/or Yusanis could quite easily take on Episode IV Obi-Wan. That's just from what I saw in the film though... I mean, Obi-Wan was only fighting Vader to distract him really... I'm sure he could have 'upped' his ability had he needed to.

 

From what we see in KotOR1/2 in fact, it is quite easy for non-Jedi to beat up Jedi. But that's just a gameplay thing. I mean, it's pretty ridiculous that Mission can kill a Sith Master in a one-on-one duel. She's 14....

 

- Revan was in possession of near-supernatural charisma and rallied a considerable portion of the Jedi Order to his cause. Vader took the Malak approach of "fear me". Not saying one is better than the other, this is just comparison.

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No one ever said Vader/Malak was subtle.

 

 

Indeed not. I was just saying that Revan was no less "dark side" because of it. You were implying that he was a "jedi thug"... or maybe you weren't. The first posts seem like so long ago...

 

So Revan is no less "badass evil" or "grand" than Vader, he just goes about it a different way. Sure, PC Revan can be a mindless thug, but that's up to the player.

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Did Revan obliderate the whole Jedi Order? Did Revan command the fleet that conquered the Republic? No, Vader did.

 

More or less. I mean, his Sith assassins culled it from the 1,000s to the hundreds. And he also commanded a fleet that conquered a sizable portion of the Republic- and would have conquered the Republic had he decided to stay in the galaxy.

 

Vader didn't command the fleet that conquered the Republic. He commanded a *portion* of the fleet that surpressed the dissidents within the Empire - and remember that ultimately those dissidents won. The Republic became the Empire, the Empire didn't "conquer" the Republic in the traditional sense.

 

Vader also had a *bit* of help in obliterating the Jedi Order. I mean, I'm sure he picked off the most powerful, but the stormtroopers would be killing all the run-of-the-mill Jedi that they came across too.

 

I know it looks like I'm Revan worshipping- but I'm honestly not trying to be. I'm just taking the facts as they are presented in the game/movies and trying to compare based on them.

 

Based on all the facts it's clear that if it came to a fight of Revan vs Vader, then Revan should win.

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And based on all the facts I presented it's clear if it came to fight, then Vader should win.

 

 

Not at all. None of your facts make it likely that Vader would beat Revan in a fight except:

 

Vader killed all the Jedi, Revan is/was a Jedi.

 

To which the answer could simply be: Vader didn't kill Luke, and Revan was as powerful/more so than Luke.

 

And it all comes back to preference.

 

 

I mean, of course, since Vader hasn't fufilled his destiny until he's killed the Emperor Revan technically *can't* win... heh. But statistically speaking he should.

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Um, you don't know that.

 

Yeah, I know: but since i'd already established it was a theory I figured I could use it without being called on it again.

 

If you're talking about the stats then, yeah, Revan should win.

 

If the question is "who do I prefer" out of Revan and Vader, then I don't really have a preference. It depends whether I'm watching Star Wars or playing KotOR.

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I think preference is the final victor here. You're going to keep thinking Revan is stronger, and I'm going to keep thinking Vader is stronger. Like I said before, to each his own.

 

Yup. I'm not really trying to convince you. Just make sure you understand that my reasons for choosing Revan go beyond "Revan is r0x0r w00T!" (though he is of course...)

 

I mean, Revan was *designed* as a munchkin character. Therefore he's absurdly powerful by definition.

 

When I watch Star Wars, since Vader is my favourite character I'm rooting for him and wanting him to be the best (despite knowing that he loses to Luke in RotJ, I have hope that one day he'll change the ending and beat that little punk to oblivion...)

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Why do you think RoTJ Luke is weak? Emperor Palpatine fears him for a reason.

 

I don't think Luke is weak at all. "Little punk" was in reference to his height and the fact he annoys the c*ap out of me. I don't think he was as strong as Anakin was/could have been, but he was definately stronger than Vader.

 

When I play KotOR since Revan is *my* character, I'm obviously rooting for him and wanting him to be the best.

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I think everyone does.

 

Well, as a member of "everyone" (by definition of everyone) you can understand where I'm coming from

 

Naga Sadow is extremely weak. Tulak Hord was invented by Bioware, although supposed to be a powerful lightsaber duelist. Ajunta has a weak will, and Ragnos is powerful but in spirit a weakling. And don't get me started on Exar Kun.

 

At last a kindred spirit. Can't stand Exar Kun. So overrated. Then again, you'd say the same about Revan, d'oh

[Darth_Radnor]

Preference wins.

 

And Revan is my 3rd favorite Jedi/Sith (after Vader/Anakin and Luke). I just hate Exar Kun.

[Jedi_Master_Darkor]

Preference wins. 

 

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Agreed.