Combat System in KOTOR 1/2

[Kaftan Barlast]

Twitch-gaming belongs in action games, period. I mean its not like you have to go fisticuffs with your GM when encountering enemies in a PnP game?

 

 

RPGs are about brains, not reflexes.

 

 

 

..hey! I got an idea, why not replace the D20 with a dartboard in your next PnP game?

[mEtaLL1x]

I mean its not like you have to go fisticuffs with your GM when encountering enemies in a PnP game?

Inappropriate comparison.

We're talking about computer rpgs, and it's a whole different story.

 

Why do you cage yourself in standarts?

RPG can remain RPG even if the combat system is action-based, why not? As long as it has freedom of choice, good dialogs, great story and live world it remains true RPG.

 

But of course, I don't like the idea of DnD-style RPGs being action-based....

The problem is magic: every single Action_RPG has CRAPPY magic system - take Morrowind or GOthic for example. Full crap.

 

But for StarWars, I think it'll fit in, because Force is a lil different - it's not so wide-varied as, say, DnD magic.

[213374U]

Why do you cage yourself in standarts?

RPG can remain RPG even if the combat system is action-based, why not?

Because it doesn't work.

[NeverwinterKnight]

RPG can remain RPG even if the combat system is action-based, why not? As long as it has freedom of choice, good dialogs, great story and live world it remains true RPG.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

have you played vampire: the masquerade bloodlines? youd have your answer why twitch combat, combined with pc abilities dont work too well.

[Kalfear]

/shrug

 

For me I liked KotOR1&2 combat.

 

Twitch based games hold no interest for me.

 

Id argue till blue in the face those that claim twitch styles are skill based, they are not. They are simply hand eye coordination. Nothing beyond that what so ever.

 

Having hand eye coordination doesnt require skill. Knowledge of a game and items, using different tactics for different fights, playing to your strenghts of a character to minimize your weaknesses of a character are skill. Button mashing isnt.

 

I hope Obsidian (or how ever does part 3) doesnt tweak the engine and style of game to much as that would cause many people to become disenchanted with the game. While its true KotOR1&2 main strenght is storyline and atmosphere, those are not its only strenghts. Current engine and combat design also weigh in heavily on the plus side for sales of the game!

[mEtaLL1x]

Well, we're all different.

 

But some of you really think that all FPS are dumb button-mashing...... you poor things.

 

Play a duel in Q3 vs a skilled player and you'll understand that it requiers as much hand-eye coord as actual tactics and quick-mind.

 

I think that there should be some variety... some RPGs action-based, some - turn-based or the like.

I love'em all (depending on the game, of course).

[Kaftan Barlast]

have you played vampire: the masquerade bloodlines?  youd have your answer why twitch combat, combined with pc abilities dont work too well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I kind of liked... hey wait a minute, Im popping my own baloon here. But I can say that Bloodlines did it lightyears better than Deus:Ex

 

 

..I guess twitch combat could work, but never ever JKA type combat, that would be undignified, ludicrous and overflamboyant.

[213374U]

But some of you really think that all FPS are dumb button-mashing......  you poor things.

No, FPS aren't all about button-mashing. Games like Battlefield 1942 prove otherwise. However, it doesn't make much sense to have your character be a l33t sniper, and keep missing because you suck at aiming, for instance. I for one would love to see a JK style game in which you could roleplay some. That would still be an action/FPS game, but it would feature RPG elements. However I don't think KotOR is intended to accomplish that.

 

 

I think that there should be some variety... some RPGs action-based, some - turn-based or the like.

Agreed. But not KotOR. You know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Drakron]

Well, we're all different.

 

But some of you really think that all FPS are dumb button-mashing......  you poor things.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In JK:A case the lightsaber combat becames "button mashing" due to the lack of a "defend" button and the whole combo system being the same as used on fighting sims, in the single player it simply degenerates into "hitting attack and hope it kills the enemy before it kill us".

 

Note that we are talking about the Jedi Knight series because you used it as example of how its elements would improve the KotOR line, if KotOR would use JK combat system it then would use a "button mashing" combat system.

[213374U]

In JK:A case the lightsaber combat becames "button mashing" due to the lack of a "defend" button and the whole combo system being the same as used on fighting sims,

No.

[Whitemithrandir]

In JK:A case the lightsaber combat becames "button mashing" due to the lack of a "defend" button and the whole combo system being the same as used on fighting sims,

No.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yes. oh yes.

[213374U]

In JK:A case the lightsaber combat becames "button mashing" due to the lack of a "defend" button and the whole combo system being the same as used on fighting sims,

No.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yes. oh yes.

Um, no.

[Whitemithrandir]

Um, no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First, let's not even talk about staff users. We know it takes no skill to use a staff.

 

Second, dual just boils down to hitting the right comboes at the right time.

 

Third, single staff = heavy spam. Strafe jump around and click attack in red stance... WOW!!!!

 

Button mashing. There's no skill in JKA dueling. Sorry to disappoint you.

[213374U]

First, let's not even talk about staff users. We know it takes no skill to use a staff.

 

Second, dual just boils down to hitting the right comboes at the right time.

 

Third, single staff = heavy spam. Strafe jump around and click attack in red stance... WOW!!!!

 

Button mashing. There's no skill in JKA dueling. Sorry to disappoint you.

Obviously you don't know jack about the finer points of JA dueling. I'm not surprised since you claim to be a FF/FG CTF player.

 

Staff and dual sabers are kata spam-based, mostly. And with all of those forceregentime 0 servers out there it's even worse. But it's too easy to deal with spammers with the single saber, if you know how to do it. That requires skill, and a certain degree of tactics. The single saber is still the most powerful of the three choices, even despite the lower damage potential. That's why most duelists favor them over dual or staves. So, there is dueling in JA. Your not liking it/being able to do it, doesn't change that fact. Get over it.

[mEtaLL1x]

Alright, I know most of you're a furious opponents of JKA concept.

 

I think Oblivion and Gothic will prove that action-based figthing with heavy relience on skills/stats is a viable design.

 

Here's what Gavin Carter said in some interview about the upcoming Oblivion's new combat system:

 

Saying we

[213374U]

Sounds like they're just removing the 'to hit' rolls from the equation altogether. They are just using skills to determine damage. It's not like they've gone to impossible lengths to blend both concepts. Who can blame them, after all, it can't be done.

 

If you put that in a RPG, you're going to piss off a great deal of players who don't want to have anything to do with twitch gaming. Many of those players specifically play RPGs in order to avoid twitch gaming. Let's have it that way.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Here's what Gavin Carter said in some interview about the upcoming Oblivion's new combat system:

 

Saying we

[Brannart]

If they want to create a crappy SW action/RPG hybrid that is fine. I will simply not be buying it.

 

However this is KOTOR and so should have KOTOR gameplay. Changing the entire game in the middle of the series is thankfully not going to happen.

 

I would like for them to stop having the AI change all your orders when you switch characters so you can actually plan out your battles. A more devious and challenging AI is almost a necessity. This is a world with guns and grenades and rockets and everything always runs up to fight swords with you

[mEtaLL1x]

I'm not for changing the WHOLE game. I'm for changing only combat system.

Everything else is great. The atmosphere, dialogs, characters.... it's all RPG aspects that must always remain true to the genre standart (BG2 etc).

 

But alright, I get the point. Most of RPGplayers seem to have a deep fear of action-based combat....

But it stilll doesn't make sense: do you value combat above all else in RPG??? I mean, why bother which combat to have? What's wrong with having both in different RPGs?

I don't mind. One day I can play BG2/Torment/IWD with tactical combat, best spellcasting system and the rest, while the other day enjoy a fast-paced action-combat in Gothic.

[Brannart]

I'm not for changing the WHOLE game. I'm for changing only combat system.

Everything else is great. The atmosphere, dialogs, characters.... it's all RPG aspects that must always remain true to the genre standart (BG2 etc).

 

But alright, I get the point. Most of RPGplayers seem to have a deep fear of action-based combat....

But it stilll doesn't make sense: do you value combat above all else in RPG??? I mean, why bother which combat to have? What's wrong with having both in different RPGs?

I don't mind. One day I can play BG2/Torment/IWD with tactical combat, best spellcasting system and the rest, while the other day enjoy a fast-paced action-combat in Gothic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Combat is the center of the gameplay. You spend at least half the game killing things.

 

I dont fear actionbased combat, I simply do not enjoy it-I think it makes the game cheesy and not enjoyable. Thats just my opinion of course. And nothing is wrong with having both in RPGs alot of RPGs do and I do not often play those RPGs.

[NeverwinterKnight]

But alright, I get the point. Most of RPGplayers seem to have a deep fear of action-based combat....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

actually, you dont get it if you keep saying that we have a "fear" of anything remotely action based.

 

i dont "fear" action games, or twitch games. i just dont like them. i prefer it when my characters ability determines whether i win or lose, not whether my ability to press buttons is good enough. this is especially true in games in which you go to a large amount of time and effort to build skills and abilities for the character. if my ability to push the right button combination is what determines if i defeat an enemy, then what difference does it make if my character is built as a stealth assassin as compared to a walking tank of a fighter? it doesnt. whereas if my characters stats determine the outcome of a battle, then creating a stealth character will actually differ from creating a walking killing machine.

 

see? nothing to do with "fear" at all and everything to do with playing to the strength of the genre. and in the case of rpgs, the strength of the genre, imo, is the ability to build and mold different characters based on how i allocate their skill points. adding a twitch element to combat would make all those decisions moot.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

actually, you dont get it if you keep saying that we have a "fear" of anything remotely action based.

 

i dont "fear" action games, or twitch games.  i just dont like them.  i prefer it when my characters ability determines whether i win or lose, not whether my ability to press buttons is good enough.  this is especially true in games in which you go to a large amount of time and effort to build skills and abilities for the character.  if my ability to push the right button combination is what determines if i defeat an enemy, then what difference does it make if my character is built as a stealth assassin as compared to a walking tank of a fighter?  it doesnt.  whereas if my characters stats determine the outcome of a battle, then creating a stealth character will actually differ from creating a walking killing machine.

 

see?  nothing to do with "fear" at all and everything to do with playing to the strength of the genre.  and in the case of rpgs, the strength of the genre, imo, is the ability to build and mold different characters based on how i allocate their skill points.  adding a twitch element to combat would make all those decisions moot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That isnt how it works though unless you do away with stats completely which no one has yet suggested.

Your ability to push buttons will influence the outcome, but it wont determine it. Much like how peoples knowledge of the rules influence the outcome in rules based games. Knowing the rules will be an advantage, but by no means guarantees you will win. You still need a character that is upto the task.

 

Characters abilities can be incorportated into hands on systems just as easily as they can in rules based ones.

[NeverwinterKnight]

That isnt how it works though unless you do away with stats completely which no one has yet suggested.

Your ability to push buttons will influence the outcome, but it wont determine it. Much like how peoples knowledge of the rules influence the outcome in rules based games. Knowing the rules will be an advantage, but by no means guarantees you will win. You still need a character that is upto the task.

 

Characters abilities can be incorportated into hands on systems just as easily as they can in rules based ones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

its still much more of a "twitch gamer" ability though.

 

i was equally as "newbish" to the star wars d20 rules bioware used, as i was to vampire: the masquerades combat system, yet in bloodlines i succeeded when my ability to properly target an enemy became better. at the beginning, when i had no clue what i was doing, i was getting beaten up by the weakest of enemies. but once i was able to get the "twitch" aspect down properly, most of the supposed harder bosses werent much of a challenge for me.

 

in contrast, when i played kotor, it was always, ALWAYS my characters abilities that determined whether a battle was easy or difficult.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

its still much more of a "twitch gamer" ability though.

 

i was equally as "newbish" to the star wars d20 rules bioware used, as i was to vampire: the masquerades combat system, yet in bloodlines i succeeded when my ability to properly target an enemy became better.  at the beginning, when i had no clue what i was doing, i was getting beaten up by the weakest of enemies.  but once i was able to get the "twitch" aspect down properly, most of the supposed harder bosses werent much of a challenge for me.

 

in contrast, when i played kotor, it was always, ALWAYS my characters abilities that determined whether a battle was easy or difficult.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldnt say much more, it really depends on the game. Last time I played FFC I ended up hitting the end boss 300 times without getting hit. Certainly a case of my abilities overshadowing my characters. However, this isnt a typical thing either. Most people would die either from the boss or of boredom long before that..

 

Actually it's more when you trigger those abilities, which is entirely down to the player. Even with the same character people will have a different gameplay experience.KOTORs a very simple game anyway. The more complex the game the more the player becomes a factor whether the game is reflex based or rules based.

[mEtaLL1x]

NeverwinterKnight, alright, perhaps it was foolish of me to use word "fear" there.. anyway, what I mean is that in RPG combat is not the most important thing, it's optional. Atmosphere, dialogs, characters, story - that's what's really matters in RPG.

 

So I can't see why you are so agrivated at this point.