draakh_kimera Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Um, BG series didn't have great freedom...Only game with anything close to "freedom" was FO series.
Ivan the Terrible Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Yeah. Because, the amnesiac plot is sooooooooooooooo much more special and unique. R00fles! The 'Amnesiac' plot? No. The 'guy who can't die because he had his mortality stripped away from him by an evil hag who loved him, thus causing one person to suddenly die in his place every time he should have been killed and forcing him to face the fate which his past incarnation ran away from in order to set things right once more' plot? Funny thing, but that isn't nearly as common. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Volourn Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 "Um, BG series didn't have great freedom...Only game with anything close to "freedom" was FO series. " In the PC RPG genre; it sure does have 'great' freedom. Obviously, FO has even more. "The 'Amnesiac' plot? " Um. Nice try; but PST's plot is the 'Amnsiac plot'. Afterall, that's the entire set up for the PC to care about about the game since you wake in the morgue with AMNESIA and your goal is to remember and.or find out what happened to your memory. Tsk, tsk. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Well, to be honest PS:T is the first CRPG that I have played that uses the Amnesiac Plot and does a pretty good job of it. I also have to agree with VOlourn that PS:T is not the complete package. Far from it. FOs and to a lesser extent the BG series does a good job of it. PS:T is one of the best CRPGs ever made, but let us not be blind to its many faults.
Ivan the Terrible Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Um. Nice try; but PST's plot is the 'Amnsiac plot'. Afterall, that's the entire set up for the PC to care about about the game since you wake in the morgue with AMNESIA and your goal is to remember and.or find out what happened to your memory. Tsk, tsk. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You miss my point. Stripped to their basics, the plotlines of any story are going to have been done many times before. The issue is how unique and interesting the execution is. In that sense, most RPGs don't ever break beyond the 'bad guy wants to do bad things' barrier; Sarevok wants to slaughter lots and lots of people so he can become a God. Irenicus wants to slaughter everybody in his old homeland for preventing him from becoming a God, and also to give becoming a God another try. Mellissan wants to kill all the Bhaalspawn so she can become a God (notice a trend?) I wish I could tell you what the villains in NWN wanted, but I got bored around Chapter 3 and quit playing. Something about ancient lizard people conquering the world. I wouldn't be surprised if some villain or another was planning to use the slaughter of everyone in Neverwinter to become a God. Or something. The Fallouts are the only ones which comes close to breaking the barrier....but even there, with objectives you can kinda sorta see how someone might believe in, the objective is pointlessly genocidal and obviously 'bad.' Of them all, the only one which transcends the tired cliche is Torment. You can point to the amnesiac thing all you like, but beyond the set-up virtually everything in Torment is outside of your typical fare....and executed brilliantly, I might add. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Ivan the Terrible Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 I also have to agree with VOlourn that PS:T is not the complete package. Far from it. FOs and to a lesser extent the BG series does a good job of it. PS:T is one of the best CRPGs ever made, but let us not be blind to its many faults. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree as well, and Torment is definetely not 'the complete package'; it just does one thing so well that I overlook the flaws and place it at the top of my list of favorite RPGS. I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Zoq-Fot-Pik Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Um. Nice try; but PST's plot is the 'Amnsiac plot'. Afterall, that's the entire set up for the PC to care about about the game since you wake in the morgue with AMNESIA and your goal is to remember and.or find out what happened to your memory. Tsk, tsk. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You miss my point. Stripped to their basics, the plotlines of any story are going to have been done many times before. The issue is how unique and interesting the execution is. In that sense, most RPGs don't ever break beyond the 'bad guy wants to do bad things' barrier; Sarevok wants to slaughter lots and lots of people so he can become a God. Irenicus wants to slaughter everybody in his old homeland for preventing him from becoming a God, and also to give becoming a God another try. Mellissan wants to kill all the Bhaalspawn so she can become a God (notice a trend?) I wish I could tell you what the villains in NWN wanted, but I got bored around Chapter 3 and quit playing. Something about ancient lizard people conquering the world. I wouldn't be surprised if some villain or another was planning to use the slaughter of everyone in Neverwinter to become a God. Or something. The Fallouts are the only ones which comes close to breaking the barrier....but even there, with objectives you can kinda sorta see how someone might believe in, the objective is pointlessly genocidal and obviously 'bad.' Of them all, the only one which transcends the tired cliche is Torment. You can point to the amnesiac thing all you like, but beyond the set-up virtually everything in Torment is outside of your typical fare....and executed brilliantly, I might add. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Fot:
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Fot, what does a random picture of some unknown basketball player has to do with anything?
Volourn Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 "Stripped to their basics, the plotlines of any story" Um.. PST's plot is not just stripped down; it's plot is about amnesia. Without it; you pretty much got no story. "Sarevok wants to slaughter lots and lots of people so he can become a God." That's not BG's real story. It's story is discovering your character's roots and trying to find out why someone wants you dead. BG's story is not about Sarevok; it's about you. However, your version is used by those who want to make Bg's story look weak when it isn't. "Irenicus wants to slaughter everybody in his old homeland for preventing him from becoming a God, and also to give becoming a God another try." No. That's not BG2's story. BG2's story is the continued journey of the PC in discovering his palce and the world and Irenicus - while awesomely well done - is the means to the end in that regard. Why do you think the dreams equences in BG2 evolved around you and Irenicus talking about your palce in the world. BG2 story was never about Irencius. He was a major aprt of your story; but the story was not his. People who say it tend to be the ones who like BG2; are trying to twist BG2's story in't soemthing as basic as 'go kill big baddy'. Not cool. "Mellissan wants to kill all the Bhaalspawn so she can become a God (notice a trend?) " Melissan was lame. I enjoyed TOB in spite of its main story. I agree though its story was about stopping Meslissan hence its being the weakest of the BGs in terms of main story. "I wish I could tell you what the villains in NWN wanted, but I got bored around Chapter 3 and quit playing. Something about ancient lizard people conquering the world. I wouldn't be surprised if some villain or another was planning to use the slaughter of everyone in Neverwinter to become a God. Or something. " Only if you listened to fools. NWN's story is about a former power wanting what they feel is theirs back. It's not really about conquering others; but about getting abck what was lost and conquering in the villains' mind was the best way to a ccomplish this. Still, the OC's story was weakened since the focus - like TOB (though TOB still did a decent job) - wasn't on the PC as much as it should be. "You can point to the amnesiac thing all you like, but beyond the set-up" Um. Your character's amnesia in PST is more than just a set up of the story; it *is* the story. "The Fallouts are the only ones which comes close to breaking the barrier....but even there, with objectives you can kinda sorta see how someone might believe in, the objective is pointlessly genocidal and obviously 'bad.' " Nah. Both Fos were about dealing with the Big bad or in FO1 also possibly joining them. however, no one really claims that FO's story is its best part or is really special. Though; it's still well done mostly. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Zoq-Fot-Pik Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 stuff <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Zoq: Do you realize that you justified BG's and NWN's stories the same way Ivan did PS:T's?
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Zoq: Of course he knows. He is doing this just to get a rise out of Ivan.
Zoq-Fot-Pik Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Zoq: Of course he knows. He is doing this just to get a rise out of Ivan. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Zoq: Oh, so he was just trolling. Fot: Bu...wha....huh? Pik:... Zoq: You just stay out of this.
Volourn Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 " Do you realize that you justified BG's and NWN's stories the same way Ivan did PS:T's?" Justify? Neither of us were jsutifying anything. I merely pointed out that PST's story was about TNO's amnesia. The BG's stories were never about Irenicus or Sarevok. Bg's story was always about the PC discovering his/her roots, and how that effect him or her. The two dinks were just the PC's antagonsts in their respective games. In NWN's case, it was more about telling him about its main vilaliness motives; not justifying the story itself. "Zoq: Of course he knows. He is doing this just to get a rise out of Ivan." Um. Why would I do this? I like Ivan. He's cool even when he disagrees with me. Unlike you who is never cool. " "Zoq: Oh, so he was just trolling." Do you always believe what Hades post? I sure hope not. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Zoq, trolling is such a harsh word. I would say verbal aggravation through unreasonable logic, utilizing inane quirps with the backing of skewed facts. :D
Sargallath Abraxium Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 ...Volourn's jus' bein' Volourn; no sense tryin' ta put a label on it, cuz his unique blend o' idiocy an' inanity be breathtakin' ta behold... ...or not... <_< ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... 1 A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way
Volourn Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Volourn's jus' bein' Volourn; no sense tryin' ta put a label on it, cuz his unique blend o' idiocy an' inanity be breathtakin' ta behold... ...or not..." So says the one who claimed that Dungeion Seige was the best CRPG of all time! R00fles!! DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Its a CRPG? I thought it was a screen saver.
Sargallath Abraxium Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 So says the one who claimed that Dungeion Seige was the best CRPG of all time! R00fles!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...that BS was ol' last year, Gully Dwarf... <_< ...btw, 'twas actually you that said it; e'en had it in me sig fer awhile as a memorial ta yer mindless inanity... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... 1 A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way
kirottu Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 stuff <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Zoq: Do you realize that you justified BG's and NWN's stories the same way Ivan did PS:T's? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Apparently he didn This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Volourn Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 "btw, 'twas actually you that said it; e'en had it in me sig fer awhile as a memorial ta yer mindless inanity..." Ha. That's because you twinked what i wrote you boogerface squirming beast. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Volourn Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 "Well, don't you do that to?" Yes. Your point being what? DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Judge Hades Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 Why get on the case of others for something you also do. Sounds a wee bit hypocritical to me.
Sargallath Abraxium Posted January 12, 2005 Posted January 12, 2005 ...shhhh, Visc...ye knows better than talkin' sense ta the Gully Dwarf...like oil an' water, they is... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... 1 A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way
Pidesco Posted January 13, 2005 Posted January 13, 2005 Why is amnesia always brought up as a bad thing? The point is not if the plot includes amnesia or not .It's how the amnesia plot device is used. A good example of this would be the film Memento. In the specific case of Torment, amnesia allows you to have a deep and interesting lead character that, at the same time, you can role-play as you see fit. And this is something I had never seen in a rpg before. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist I am Dan Quayle of the Romans. I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands. Heja Sverige!! Everyone should cuffawkle more. The wrench is your friend.
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